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Poland's biggest historical blunder?


Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,432
27 May 2011 #271
How many Poles were there in the German army? Please provide a source.

We have had this topic several times already in PF :)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poles_in_the_Wehrmacht

...
The formation of Polish units to serve with the Wehrmacht began in the autumn of 1939, following the defeat of Poland. Władysław Studnicki, a Polish politician and publicist, stated that in the late fall of that year, various Polish activists had come to see him, telling that somebody should send a delegation to Berlin.
As early as November 20 1939, he presented to the Germans "An appeal to re-establish the Polish Army".

So not really, Poles weren't fighting for German army.

Erm....

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polska_Si%C5%82a_Zbrojna

"I oblige myself to fight against Bolshevism in voluntary service of German armed forces. I will put all diligence into guarding against Bolshevism my nation, as well as European and whole civilized world. I oblige myself to unconditionally and obediently execute my military superiors' orders and to be a good colleague..."

Koala 1 | 332
27 May 2011 #272
You wish to claim that they were not Polish or that they were not troops?

They were individual soldiers, no Polish troops of any level were organized. That's how it works.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,432
27 May 2011 #273
The forces stationed in Radom, in the former barracks of 72th Infantry Regiment of Polish Army. Over barracks on high pole blew Polish white-red flag, as well as a great inscription reading "Wehrmacht waits for you! Lets fight together against Bolsheviks!".

Barracks, polish flag, slogan...what do you want more! ;)
Koala 1 | 332
27 May 2011 #274
According to the link you just posted:

The Waffen SS on the Eastern Front contained a sizable number of non-Germans, but no Polish-based unit was ever formed.

Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,432
27 May 2011 #275
They made up for that with the Wehrmacht... ;)
Harry
27 May 2011 #276
According to the link you just posted:

The Waffen SS on the Eastern Front contained a sizable number of non-Germans, but no Polish-based unit was ever formed

a) Who posted that link?
b) The Polish unit was Wehrmacht, not Waffen SS.
Koala 1 | 332
27 May 2011 #277
They made up for that with the Wehrmacht... ;)

It appears less than 500 people volunteered to Polish Wehrmacht, even less actually showed up for recruitment. Where and when was that 72th Regiment formed?
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,432
27 May 2011 #278
According to British army records, 104, 817 Poles fought in the German armed forces and were captured by / deserted to western allies. 89,300 subsequently joined the western command Polish army (source) and some 15,517 refused to join (source).

Torq
27 May 2011 #279
According to British army records, 104, 817 Poles fought in the German armed forces

Feckin Kloses and Podolskis of WW2 :-/
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,161
27 May 2011 #280
No you have not: because you can not. The facts are as follows:

The fact is Poland did everything what was possible to create a real, independent Ukrainian state (as that was in her very own interest) but failed as the Soviet forces were too strong to push them away from Ukrainian lands and Ukrainians themselves were deeply divided and disorganized. But obviously following common sense is too difficult for Harry the expat.

Poland signed a treaty in 1920

You forgot about one small detail, It has never been ratified. What now ? Moving away from "Poland stabbing Ukrainians allies in the back" to "proving" that Konzentrationslager Majdanek was a Polish death camp as 2 guards were possibly half-Polish, half Ukrainian ? Don't you find it pathetic to be an internet troll being so old ?

I haven't prepared anybody for FCE for at least seven years

CAE now ? Wow, what a career, congrats Mr "expat" :)))
Nathan 18 | 1,363
27 May 2011 #281
Lithuanian government which was not set in Vilnius. Period.

Polish government in 1940 was not in Warsaw. So by your logic it was Ok. Poland had no right for Warsaw and the rest because its government was relaxing in London. I see.

Shame for Lithuania that they entered the theatre of war and lost?

If you see the invading army, it is considered normal to raise an army. Shame is that out of all hyper-Catholic and pious states Poland was the one to do that on their neighbor. Disgrace.

Barracks, polish flag, slogan...what do you want more! ;)

Was there discopolo, BB? ;)
Seanus 15 | 19,706
27 May 2011 #282
Very good point there, Nathan. Their govt was in exile. This from a country that had one of the strongest armies in Europe, we are told.
Koala 1 | 332
27 May 2011 #283
By the time the war was over, there was no Warsaw. And again there were little to zero Lithuanians in Vilnius.

If you see the invading army, it is considered normal to raise an army. Shame is that out of all hyper-Catholic and pious states Poland was the one to do that on their neighbor. Disgrace.

Germany, Russia, Czech, Hungary, Sweden, Lithuania etc. had their share of wars they started. Countries start wars where they see their interest. Deal with it. The only reason I can't think of Ukrainian wars is that Ukrainians never stepped up to create their own state until late XXth century.
Harry
28 May 2011 #284
The fact is Poland did everything what was possible to create a real, independent Ukrainian state (as that was in her very own interest) but failed as

But failed because they decided to accept tens of millions of rubles from the USSR in exchange for agreeing that the Ukrainian National Republic did not exist and Poland forgetting that she'd agreed not to sign a treaty like the 1921 treaty of Riga.

You forgot about one small detail, It has never been ratified.

a) Got a source for that? Doubt it.
b) Got any details about when the Polish-British treaty of August 1939 ratified? If it wasn't, why do you plastic Poles whine about Britain failing, in your ignorant opinion, to live up to her treaty obligations?

CAE now ? Wow, what a career, congrats Mr "expat" :)))

Not taught CAE for seven years either. In fact, I haven't taught any exam classes for the last five years, although I'll bet a large amount that you earned a fair bit less than me in the last five years.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
28 May 2011 #285
The only reason I can't think of Ukrainian wars is that Ukrainians never stepped up to create their own state until late XXth century.

When they lost the war against everyone, first they got beaten by polish civilians, then they got beaten by the polish army and then they got b*tchslapped by Russia.

Then they failed to establish a proper economy which led to them starving several milion of their own people to death and then blaiming their incompetence on Russia.
Nathan 18 | 1,363
28 May 2011 #286
When they lost the war against everyone, first they got beaten by polish civilians

In Uman ;)

then they got beaten by the polish army

Battle of Zhovti Vody, battle of Korsun, battle of Pyliavtsi, battle of Batih show something different ;) The famous polish army was fleeing the battle-fields and a year later Poland was gone on the ends of the Ukrainian spikes. Nota bene: you led no other war at that time :)))

then they got b*tchslapped by Russia

Yeh, they so slapped that the Russians in 2008 raised the whole bruhaha against the Ukraine's celebration of Konotop battle victory when the Russians were crushed.

The Russian Foreign Ministry expressed its "bewilderment and regret" Tuesday over Ukrainian plans to mark the 350th anniversary of the Battle of Konotop next July.

What a bunch of wussies :)

A prominent Russian historian of the 19th century, Sergey Solovyov, described it this way:
The bloom of Moscow's cavalry, troops that happily accomplished campaigns of year 54 and 55 have perished in one day- the victors got only about 5000 captive. The unfortunate were led onto an open space and slaughtered like lambs - that was the agreement between the Crimean Khan and the hetman of the Zaporozhian Cossacks! Never again was the tsar of Moscow able to master an army that strong. In mourning clothes showed himself Alexei Mikhailovich to the people and the terror seized Moscow.

/wiki/Battle_of_Konotop

In all the cases whether with poles or russians the big mistake of the Ukrainians was not to go over into their homes and massacre the whole population out so that they thought twice before coming over the next time.

The only reason I can't think of Ukrainian wars is that Ukrainians never stepped up to create their own state until late XXth century.

One reason you can't think (beside obvious reasons) is most likely you have never read Ukrainian history. Open up a book on occasion and you might learn something :)
Koala 1 | 332
28 May 2011 #287
So when did Ukrainians have their own independent state?
Why didn't Ukrainians fight against USSR by themselves when Polish allies failed? The Soviet army was badly organized, malnourished, not well armed etc. The odds weren't impossible.
Harry
28 May 2011 #288
So when did Ukrainians have their own independent state?

According to the Polish government there was an independent Ukrainian state from 1920. Obviously that was only until the USSR offered Poland tens of millions to agree that the territory was instead part of the USSR.
Nathan 18 | 1,363
28 May 2011 #289
So when did Ukrainians have their own independent state?

Here is the Ukrainian army history with the statehood periods for starters: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_Ukraine

Why didn't Ukrainians fight against USSR by themselves when Polish allies failed?

The Polish were the allies of one faction of the Ukrainians under command of Petliura.
Many didn't support cooperation with the Poles. Ones saw Ukraine as a Soviet state. The others as a democratic state (in its present meaning). There were ideas as to how the Ukrainian state should develop, we had: anarchists, monarchists, democrats, communists, all pulling in a different direction, unfortunately, unable to form a single front. The neighbors used that discord. Our fault. Ukrainian history of 1918-1921 is a whirlpool of battles, events, governments, armies passing back and forth. It was an exciting, tragic, complicated period.
Ironside 50 | 10,910
30 May 2011 #290
Here is the Ukrainian army history with the statehood periods for starters:

hahahahahahhahahaha!!!!!
:DDD
With such a pathetic excuse for history you wont get far, I just hope for sake of sane and good Ukrainians that is not history you can find in Ukrainian history books.
Bzibzioh
30 May 2011 #291
Many didn't support cooperation with the Poles.

But you still blame Poland, who just herself regained independence, for not fighting for you. As I always said: first figure out what the hell you want, and then eventually you will find the way of achieving it. Not just go around blaming anyone in the neighborhood for your spectacular failures.
MediaWatch 10 | 945
30 May 2011 #292
Raised a white flag after 3 weeks after infamous bragging of running over Germany "whether they want it or not".

I doubt the Poles were "bragging of running over Germany" that's just Nazi German propaganda to help justify the Nazi invasion of Poland. It has as much credibility as the Nazi myth of "Polish calvary charging German tanks". Even if the Poles said things about the Nazis, it was if anything trash talk in response to all the bravado trash talk coming out of Nazi Germany Berlin broadcasts of the "Superior German Nazi race vs the inferior Polish/Slavic race" etc.

Also Poland did not fall in 3 weeks. It fell in FIVE weeks to BOTH Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia. Nazi Germany's defeat of Poland would have been temporary if Russia did not attack Poland on the other side AND give Nazi Germany 2 years of war resources and fuel when it originally only had 60 days of war resources and fuel.

Thats why you murder Jews, Poles and Russians when their armies are away and lose all actuall wars?

Its not fair to make these negative generalizations about Ukrainians.

Where I grew up there were a plenty of ukies around, and I know what that they do not respond to push, the only way is kick them in the butt.

That's not nice. The Ukrainian Americans I know are good people.

When they lost the war against everyone, first they got beaten by polish civilians, then they got beaten by the polish army and then they got b*tchslapped by Russia.
Then they failed to establish a proper economy which led to them starving several milion of their own people to death and then blaiming their incompetence on Russia.

Come on Sok. That's not nice. For much of Ukraine's history, like Poland, it was a victim of circumstances prompted by outside powers. The Ukrainians were fighting to survive against others just like Poland was when hyper nationalism was making nations in Europe (especially the large ones) go crazy and make them kill others who were not like them.

The Polish were the allies of one faction of the Ukrainians under command of Petliura.

This is very true. Things were very complicated in Ukraine in past years.

As you say there were a whirlpool of battles, events, governments, armies passing through Ukraine. Just like in Poland. Ukraine was a victim of circumstances and a whirlpool of events prompted by outside powers just like Poland was before and during the WWI to WWII period. This is why I think Poles and others should be slow to criticize Ukrainians since Ukrainians had a tragic COMPLICATED history just like Poland in those years.

Things were not black and white. It was all gray.
rjeden - | 29
30 May 2011 #293
Ukrainians are cruel and don't deserve for own state. They should be in Russia state. Russian knew how to act with ukrainians. Poles made mistske in trying tocivilize tthis people.
Palivec - | 380
30 May 2011 #294
Love the arrogance to think oneself could civilise other people. :D
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
30 May 2011 #295
Its true though, what cities, works of art, music or achievements of science did Ukraine have? None. All that was built, developed or achieved in Ukraine was done by Poles and Russians.
rjeden - | 29
30 May 2011 #296
They have big achivments in brutal killing people.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
30 May 2011 #297
Defensless people that is, they lost every war they took part in so fighting is out of their league as well.
isthatu2 4 | 2,703
30 May 2011 #298
But you still blame Poland, who just herself regained independence, for not fighting for you. As I always said: first figure out what the hell you want, and then eventually you will find the way of achieving it. Not just go around blaming anyone in the neighborhood for your spectacular failures

Lols,might be a lesson you Poles could do with learning regarding your own history eh......

Feckin Kloses and Podolskis of WW2 :-/

lols,thats a football reference right? I got that,...:)

The Soviet army was badly organized, malnourished, not well armed etc. The odds weren't impossible.

Erm,is this the same mighty soviet army that would have overrun europe if not for the battle of Warsaw? ? make up your minds folks....

Bit pathetic really,two fcuked over ,p!ss poor nations both scrabbling to show the other is less woteva........pfffff.
Bzibzioh
30 May 2011 #299
Lols,might be a lesson you Poles could do with learning regarding your own history eh......

lol yourself. We did fight and bleed for our freedom (because we were always clear about our goal.) We needed help on one occasion but still we were doing most of the fighting ourselves. So there is no parallels.

Bit pathetic really,two fcuked over ,p!ss poor nations both scrabbling to show the other is less woteva.

How is that imperium of yours doing, sweetie?
isthatu2 4 | 2,703
30 May 2011 #300
No,of course not,there never is,I forgot,Poland is completly unique,no other country in that nek of the woods ever suffered or was fcuked over by its neighbours.....how dare anyone think they were,what an insult to poland blah blah blazzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz


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