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Poland's biggest historical blunder?


gumishu 11 | 5,632
30 May 2011 #301
Erm,is this the same mighty soviet army that would have overrun europe if not for the battle of Warsaw? ? make up your minds folks....

it would probably overrun Europe because there were tonns of communists in Western Europe including Germany
Nathan 18 | 1,363
30 May 2011 #302
Also Poland did not fall in 3 weeks. It fell in FIVE weeks to BOTH Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia.

Here is a photo of the Nazis meeting the Soviets on September 20th, 1939. It is even less than 3 weeks.

nationalarmedforces.com/national-armed-forces-overview-part-2.html

But still, I didn't mean to be derogatory here, MW.

Things were not black and white. It was all gray.

I agree. That's why there billions of books and documents on this period. It was tough period for the whole Europe.

But you still blame Poland, who just herself regained independence, for not fighting for you.

Where did I blame Poland for not fighting with us or for us??? :) That is what you are arguing all the time accusing the British. Here is what I said:

"anarchists, monarchists, democrats, communists, all pulling in a different direction, unfortunately, unable to form a single front. The neighbors used that discord. Our fault."

Not an accusation, but realization of our own mistakes.

Ukrainians are cruel ... Poles made mistske in trying tocivilize tthis people

I see the foam. Calm down, horsie ;)
Trevek 26 | 1,702
30 May 2011 #303
Do you believe there is one chief Polish historical blunder that has adversely affected her developement? If so, what is it? Or maybe there are more than one?

Accepting 'Idol', 'X-Factor' and Big Brother onto Polish TV. Look what it spawned...
...
Palivec - | 380
31 May 2011 #304
Its true though, what cities, works of art, music or achievements of science did Ukraine have? None. All that was built, developed or achieved in Ukraine was done by Poles and Russians.

From the perspective of an Italian, French or German the same can be said about Poland.
Ironside 50 | 10,910
31 May 2011 #305
Only by ignorant fools not unlike yourself!
legend 3 | 664
31 May 2011 #306
Here is a photo of the Nazis meeting the Soviets on September 20th, 1939. It is even less than 3 weeks.
But still, I didn't mean to be derogatory here, MW.

There were still parts fighting after 3 weeks (I think in central Poland they meet but some corners had people fighting).

I just wanted to point out that pictures dont tell the whole story (in your case its probably legit)
Remember Italians took pictures of Polish cavalry and all that stuff which was just propaganda.
One time Polish cavalry beat a German infantry division and then tanks rolled in to massacre them.
(But the calvarly never charged the tanks or anything ridiculous like that).
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
31 May 2011 #307
From the perspective of an Italian, French or German the same can be said about Poland.

No it cannot, only from your anti-polish perspective that ignores the fact that Poland, when partitioned had over 800 years of cultural development and 792 years of national development, Poland had writers, sculptors, painters, architects, scientists and generals, Ukraine had nothing of the sort, at all.

You're anti-polish Palivec face the facts.
Palivec - | 380
31 May 2011 #308
Ahh. But you are of course absolutely objective and not anti-Ukrainian at all... :D
Just because you don't know the cultural achievements of the Ukraine it doesn't mean they don't exist. And for someone from Western Europe Polands cultural achievements are equally unknown and therefore considered equally sparse.

Only by ignorant fools not unlike yourself!

I see, but it's absolutely OK to say Ukrainians don't have their own culture, and what they have was teached by Poles. OK. :D
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
2 Jun 2011 #309
Ahh. But you are of course absolutely objective and not anti-Ukrainian at all... :D

No but i can still discuss actuall data.

Just because you don't know the cultural achievements of the Ukraine it doesn't mean they don't exist.

I know the cultural achievements of Ukraine, they're few, far between and none older than 100 years ago and i can name them too, thats not a case of ignorance born opinion.

And for someone from Western Europe Polands cultural achievements are equally unknown and therefore considered equally sparse.

They are? John Paul II, Chopin, Kościuszko, Poland might not be a top brand name but it has enough internationall postcard faces to not have to suffer statements like yours, Ukraine does not.

Its that simple, Ukraine has no noteworthy achievements, partly because the nation is a bunch of pathetic simpletons and partly because they did not have the time other countries had.
Bzibzioh
2 Jun 2011 #310
John Paul II, Chopin, Kościuszko, Poland might not be a top brand name but it has enough internationall postcard faces to not have to suffer statements like yours,

Add Marie Curie to your list of international postcard faces.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
2 Jun 2011 #311
There's more but whats the point? Palivec is not interested in an answer.
Koala 1 | 332
2 Jun 2011 #312
Erm,is this the same mighty soviet army that would have overrun europe if not for the battle of Warsaw? ? make up your minds folks....

Germany was demilitarized. Also, communists had bigger support in Germany than in Poland. Yes, they would overrun Germany in no time.
Palivec - | 380
2 Jun 2011 #313
There's more but whats the point? Palivec is not interested in an answer.

Oh, I received the answer I expected... and it looks like no one here should ever complain again if some Western European, especially German, describes Poles as culturally backward and inferor. :D
Ironside 50 | 10,910
3 Jun 2011 #314
what that **** is about ? what is your point that you are an ignorant half-wit with agenda ?
you won!
no go and take your meds !
hubabuba - | 113
10 Jun 2011 #315
one stubbed toe would have been too great a sacrifice for a sick ungreatfull ***** like you. Its a good job the wartime generation of Poles are dying off because they would be terminally embarresed by the whining and whinging by people who clearly know so little about the subject.

I asked a simple question,but
I guess this is what Your ancestors were thinking behaving like traitors and cowards again just like in 1920
what should we be greatfull for?

so tell me , Nathan, do You think Lwów should be Ukr because of the history or because of the nationality of inhabitants?

You need to use words which go into detail as to exactly what Britain could have done in September 1939 but did not do.

please, we are not children, I quoted Jodl, and AFTER that I said You should have been active, do You see only what You want to see?.

I am not able to tell waht weapon, what batallion You should have used if this is what You are expecting form me

Tens of thousands. 1,200 were on a single British warship which was sunk on 17 September 1939 with the loss of 518 men. But of course you have to lie about them and claim that they were not fighting

do You mean HMS courageous?are You serious?You claim they were fighting for Poland?

Yes they did.

untreaty.un.org/unts/60001_120000/20/14/00038658.pdf

please take a map in Your hand and read the agreement then come back and tell me how wrong You were

Harry, do You believe Poland should have given both Lwów and Wilno to Ukr and Lt?
Nathan 18 | 1,363
10 Jun 2011 #316
so tell me , Nathan, do You think Lwów should be Ukr because of the history or because of the nationality of inhabitants?

If you mean L'viv, then both. What do you think about Danzig, Kulm, Breslau, Posen,...? Should they be Polish because of the history or the nationality of inhabitants?
hubabuba - | 113
10 Jun 2011 #317
but it was neither, not historically and not because of inhabitants
Gdańsk-should be Polish,
Poznań-obviously Polish,
Wrocław-obviously German before the war
Nathan 18 | 1,363
10 Jun 2011 #318
Gdańsk-should be Polish

Why? Historically it was German and by inhabitants it was German. I was there once and it is German through and through. I agree Danzig wasn't Polish neither historically, nor inhabitantwise Polish. What about that?
hubabuba - | 113
10 Jun 2011 #319
gdańsk was Polish, was fund by Poles, Poland was tolerant so let Germans settle there but it was always(almost) a part of the crown, privileges were given by king to built, it was defended by Polish army, the taxes were going to the Polish crown. Then after partitions, this multicultural city was germanised. I think it is just that it is Poland again.

and of course, in 1945 nothing was left of the old Gdańsk, so all we can see now was built by Poles
legend 3 | 664
10 Jun 2011 #320
Why? Historically it was German and by inhabitants it was German. I was there once and it is German through and through. I agree Danzig wasn't Polish neither historically, nor inhabitantwise Polish. What about that?

Gdansk was made a city of Poland before the Germans/Prussians had it. If youre gonna talk about 'the past' mention it all.
Maybe before there some Germanics living there but tribes move on. Once the slavs came in it was civilized by us.
Germanics came from the north/west. Slavs from the east. If you want look at the magyars who came from wayy east and settled in south/east europe. Everyone moves around.

You also mentiond Lwow. My grandma was born and raised there along with my grandpa (when it was part of Poland) They lived quite close to concentration camp during WWII. It was mostly Poles/Ukrainians/Jews living there.
Nathan 18 | 1,363
10 Jun 2011 #321
and of course, in 1945 nothing was left of the old Gdańsk, so all we can see now was built by Poles

Just put in Lviv there instead of Gdansk and Ukraine in place of Poland and you have the answer to your question :)

You also mentiond Lwow.

I didn`t. I mentioned Lviv. But I agree with most of what you said. It is just my approach to some jumpers out here to solve the issue fast without going too much into history. It is 2011 outside and some still live in the Middle Ages. Why explain? and to whom? :)
Palivec - | 380
10 Jun 2011 #322
Then after partitions, this multicultural city was germanised. I think it is just that it is Poland again.

I see Commie propaganda is still popular in parts of the world... :D
Harry
10 Jun 2011 #323
I am not able to tell waht weapon, what batallion You should have used if this is what You are expecting form me

You know why you are not able to do that: because there weren't any which could have been used. But of course you will continue to lie and to say that Britain should have done more while the simple truth is that there was nothing which could have been done.

do You mean HMS courageous?are You serious?You claim they were fighting for Poland?

Of course not: they were all on a pleasure cruise around the north sea. You really are utter scum: ten of thousands of British men were risking their lives in September 1939 in a war which was declared in defense of Poland but you say that they "did nothing significant". Pondlife like you make me nearly wish that Britain had taken the logical route and joined the alliance that Hitler wanted to be formed between the two great empires.

Harry, do You believe Poland should have given both Lwów and Wilno to Ukr and Lt?

Yes: perhaps Poland might finally learn not to break international treaties as a result of that. Although given that Poland has some denizens like you who are genetically incapable of telling the truth, perhaps not.
hubabuba - | 113
10 Jun 2011 #324
Just put in Lviv there instead of Gdansk and Ukraine in place of Poland and you have the answer to your question :)

Lwów was Ukr, was fund by Ukr, UKr was tolerant so let Poles settle there but it was always(almost) a part of the crown, privileges were given by king to built, it was defended by Ukr army, the taxes were going to the Ukr crown. Then after partitions, this multicultural city was polonised- is it how they teach history at Ukr school?

I see Commie propaganda is still popular in parts of the world... :

maybe You would like to tell me where I am wrong?

You know why you are not able to do that: because there weren't any which could have been used. But of course you will continue to lie and to say that Britain should have done more while the simple truth is that there was nothing which could have been done.

of course I am not, how could I?am not a soldier,strategist, how could I know which division You should use
let me quote Your historian, Norman Davies if the words of Jodl are not enough for You:
page 548 and 549,Polish edition of The Gods Playground:
"According to military debates, Polish Army was supposed to hold off Wermacht for the period of two weeks, so Western allies could move 70 ready to fight French divisions stationing near Ren river. When the time came, Poles fullfiled their task but French and British didnt(...)in this situation one can see the

Yes: perhaps Poland might finally learn not to break international treaties as a result of that. Although given that Poland has some denizens like you who are genetically incapable of telling the truth, perhaps not.

so I understand that You are all for athnic cleansing?did You read the agreement I gave You what treaties are You talking about?
Antek_Stalich 5 | 997
10 Jun 2011 #325
Hubabuba, too long to write on the history of Gdańsk here. Google out the meaning of word "Hansa". And maybe Johannes Hevel. And perhaps Arend Dickmann. If you think multinational Gdańsk started during partitions, you are ignorant.
hubabuba - | 113
10 Jun 2011 #326
antek read my post, I have written that it ended with partitions

Harry:
You know why you are not able to do that: because there weren't any which could have been used. But of course you will continue to lie and to say that Britain should have done more while the simple truth is that there was nothing which could have been done.

in this situation one can see the more honorable actions of the Polish Army as opposed to combined French and British that baptism of fire had as late as may 1940(...)Western allies who on September 3rd declared war, didnt fire a single bullet in the defense of Poland(...)by the end of the month the British prime minister Neville Chamberlain asked: Tell me plaese general(to Adrian Courton de Wiart)what effect did our leflets have?

This is all he writes about the phoney war, but I guess You are smarter than a man who devouted his life to Polish history
Antek_Stalich 5 | 997
10 Jun 2011 #327
My comment is: Gdańsk was multinational until WWII. Poles and German had defined roles even in the Freistadt Danzig. Pity Nazis ended it all.

Note: Before 20th c. Poland even had no Polish Admiral, all were foreigners.
hubabuba - | 113
10 Jun 2011 #328
maybe to a small extent, my opinion is that it was already Germanised in the interwar period
Antek_Stalich 5 | 997
10 Jun 2011 #329
Not true. The military, postal system and railway transport were Polish. Same as big deal of inhabitants. The defence of Westerplatte and of Poczta Główna in 1939 resulted from exactly those roles in the Wolne Miasto Gdańsk.
Palivec - | 380
10 Jun 2011 #330
maybe You would like to tell me where I am wrong?

Your argument is wrong. No modern nation state can claim a city, region or country because some twat from the Middle Ages owned it once. That's just 19th century nationalism. The right of self-determination is the basis of our legal system.

And you are wrong on some other things too:

Poland was tolerant so let Germans settle there

Only the city itself decided who settled inside the city walls. Part of the great privilege.

it was defended by Polish army

The city had an army itself, also part of the great privilege.

the taxes were going to the Polish crown.

The city was freed of all taxes in the great privilege and could raise their own taxes.

Then after partitions, this multicultural city was germanised

Has nothing to do with Poland or Germany but with the upcoming nationalism of the 19th century, which threatened minorities everywhere in Europe.

Not true. The military, postal system and railway transport were Polish. Same as big deal of inhabitants. The defence of Westerplatte and of Poczta Główna in 1939 resulted from exactly those roles in the Wolne Miasto Gdańsk.

Population in 1923:
Germans 327.827
Polish and Cashubian: 6.788
German and Cashubian: 1.108
Russians: 99
Jewish: 22


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