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Is there any part of Polish history that's at least a bit glorious?


Lukasz 49 | 1,746
12 Aug 2010 #61
Harry

The problem is that you represent strange stance in some cases, I would say that you look like unconscious follower of agenda made on that meeting.

As to 1920, Poland fought on many fronts, on west Poland fought for its border, on east Poland fought against Soviets. It was new state, regaining independence after 100 years of occupation. For most of the Poles 1920 is glorious event. In my opinion, for foreigner fact that little Poland was able to beat Soviet Union may look interesting.
aphrodisiac 11 | 2,444
12 Aug 2010 #62
why bother then, there is a historic forum AXIS I think, but I noticed that the mods don't allow for personal remarks.
Lukasz 49 | 1,746
12 Aug 2010 #63
What I want to add in many times discussed 1920 war, Poland fought for IT’S independence. More or less smashing majority of Poles supported Poland in war against the Soviets. What can’t be said about Ukrainians where from the beginning many of them didn’t want independence and only tinny forces were with Poles. Anny way Poland saved Europe from communism and gave itself 20 years of independence.
convex 20 | 3,978
12 Aug 2010 #64
Precisely, just an obligation which dose not mean a damn, when **** hits the fan you’ll run for the hills as usual. I do not put to much faith in that. Lesson learned.

Depends on the circumstances. I don't recall much running for the hills as of late.

Same should be applied to Americans but sadly the p**** in charge are just that. Tit forTat if you ask me.

That wouldn't be a problem, seems only fair. I mean, Poland obviously appreciates dollars more than the US appreciates Poles that come over and don't return... It's nice seeing all those US and German flags flying over the factories. You don't see much of that in the US.

Tito another Hero of mine,:) he did not give a **** about Americans and Russians alike, good for him.

Everyone for that matter. Tito was a bad ass, good leader, and his partisans fought smarter, not harder. The Yugoslavians didn't roll over after the war.

The nationalism here leaves a bad taste. A lot like the US in that regards. Glorifying success without looking at the failures...there's a word for that I think.
Harry
12 Aug 2010 #65
Even an elementary student can.

But you clearly can not.

One can’t have an honest discussion with you though.

So instead you start with the insults instead. Boring.

What’s the point?

The point is that you very clearly can not point out the ways in which Britain did not keep the commitments laid out in the Agreement of Mutual Assistance between the United Kingdom and Poland. So why do you continue to lie about it all?

I remember when you presented some photograph pointing to it as evidence of Poles sailing the other way.

And another lie from you: I posted that photograph as one showing that the best ships of the Polish sailed away from conflict before WWII even started. Of course you can not accept that fact and so you lie about it. Again: boring.

never get into serious discussion with Harry, he’ll bring you down to his level.

Yes, the level of needing to produce facts support one's claims or be exposed as a liar. You, of course, have been exposed as a liar.

the hatred you harbor for anything Polish.

Hmm, could it be that I hate my girlfriend, most of my friends, all of my colleagues and neighbours and 99% of the people in the city where I choose to live? Or is it more likely that you are yet again lying? I'll let the people reading this answer that question.
Archyski - | 45
12 Aug 2010 #66
Again, Harry !

What is it that makes you so sick about the Polish and the disclaim about the Ukrainian area ?

Is that your only point you got, that makes you hate our history ?

Really ?
Piorun - | 658
12 Aug 2010 #67
why bother then

Because it’s fun, and a good stress release, besides I have to practice my sarcasm somewhere, otherwise I’ll turn into another dull and boring Englishman if I’ll ever decide to go there.

I don't recall much running for the hills as of late.

That’s right; you just declare victory to go around that problem, ever since Vietnam. You don’t run, you withdraw. Iraq and Afghanistan, soon, ring a bell? All signs point in that direction, call it a victory without accomplishing any of the objectives pointed out to justify the incursion in the first place. Oh! Wait there were none, just a personal vendetta. With the thirst for revenge quenched, you’ll still leave without accomplishing jack, the women of Afghanistan will still were burka even though you made a big deal of it, as if you were to liberate them. Like it or not that’s the American way, another example of making life miserable for others. At least have a decency to state a real reason for all that crap, no one would do anything about it anyhow except perhaps for the American taxpayer who has to pay dearly to turn to rubble that which was the rubble in the first place.

That wouldn't be a problem, seems only fair. I mean, Poland obviously appreciates dollars more than the US appreciates Poles that come over and don't return.

Agree; make those rich Yanks pay hundreds for the visa application, deny it to 80% of them or so, (whatever the percentage is these days, just to be fair) and keep the money anyway, cool sounds like a plan to me, that's what Americans do. What’s good for the goose………….. Oh and having some halfwit Customs officer put some of them on the next flight back on a whim, just because he had a bad day despite the fact that the visa was granted. Loss of time, money and no chance to see your loved ones, who cares? Not to mention some of the insulting and demeaning question that would be asked on the visa application copied and paste right out of American application of course, so there’s no bi***ing and moaning about some kind of discrimination. Seems only fair.

The Yugoslavians didn't roll over after the war.

Wow; What arrogance, knowing that you still managed to **** those Serbs off. You’re in trouble, they won’t be as forgiving as we seem to be. Kosovo is theirs and dear to them yet once more you give away something that does not belong to you.

there's a word for that I think.

Sure is, it’s called Bush doctrine.
sobieski 107 | 2,128
12 Aug 2010 #68
You could always buy Swedish - they are doing a good job at building great fighter planes.

True, but if you ask me Poland should build their own .

I think this country has more sensible things to spend money on. One good move was for example to lease from LOT Embraer planes for government use.

I think it is simply stupid to blame the Brits for Yalta. For starters Yalta was a confirmation of Teheran 1943. What could Britain do? Declare war on the Soviets? Perhaps with the remains of the SS? (that was a dream of Himmler).

How could Churchill have helped the foolish 44 Uprising? Sending Sosabowski on Dakota's to Warsaw?
If anybody is to be blamed, it is Roosevelt - and rather his cronies Alger Hiss and Dexter White. He thought Uncle Joe was a guy you could do business with.

George Orwell knew better.
zetigrek
12 Aug 2010 #69
I'm Harry. Do practise your reading skills more often.

I mean your nationality Harry. Come on... don't be ashemed! I can tell you mine ;)
Harry
12 Aug 2010 #70
I qualify for several passports and identify myself as being a national of none of those countries.
aphrodisiac 11 | 2,444
12 Aug 2010 #71
Because it’s fun, and a good stress release, besides I have to practice my sarcasm somewhere, otherwise I’ll turn into another dull and boring Englishman if I’ll ever decide to go there.

good then, so take it as it is.
Archyski - | 45
12 Aug 2010 #72
I qualify for several passports and identify myself as being a national of none of those countries.

You're Ukrainian ain't you.

Why would you else be so mad about nothing !
Nathan 18 | 1,363
12 Aug 2010 #73
What can’t be said about Ukrainians

Do you know Ukrainian history? Have you ever read any Ukrainian history book on 20th century? I bet you didn't. So how can you say what you said?

from the beginning many of them didn’t want independence

So why did you have to burn churches, close libraries and kick students and profs out of universities for the very fact that they were Ukrainians if no one cared? Why millions fought either against Poles, Commies or on their side? Just for fun or to gain independance? If you don't know the very basics of the subject, better learn a bit before making retarded comments.

Anny way Poland saved Europe from communism

Poland saved the world and it constantly saves. Not only from communism, from everything bad. Thanks.

Forgot Yalta already? That honor is reserved for Britain together with its ally.

What about Yalta? Poland got German lands according to the agreement. Not happy? You wanted Ukrainian lands too? What else? A part of Sweden? Without Britain you would be a part of Soviet Union for the next 70 years. So, have some respect to the ally. On the other hand, Polish are always victorious alone, allies are just worthless addition which do nothing.
Archyski - | 45
12 Aug 2010 #74
Nathan, are you Ukrainian ? If you are, answer me on this, does the Ukrainian people feel any anger about the Polish because of things that happen nearly over a 100 years ago ?

And Harry, since you won't respond to my question, I take you as an Ukrainian.

But why blame your situation on us ? And even though you're not an Ukrainian, why still blame Poland ? Poland tries to bring Ukraine to Europe meanwhile Russia tries the opposite. And who gave Ukraine full support under the rebellion in Kijev 2005 ? Let me give you a clue....

It was Poland ! Also rumors said, that the Polish government also sponsored money for the rebellion, so why are we the bad guys again ?
Nathan 18 | 1,363
12 Aug 2010 #75
Nathan, are you Ukrainian ?

I am and there is no anger as long as Polish side doesn't let itself to sniffle pathetically about how bad or unfair Ukrainians or British were towards Poles during WWII. As soon as I see these runny hypocritic noses, it enrages me, I have to admit.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
12 Aug 2010 #76
I think that Polish achievements in WWII in British regiments are understated in some circles. They were not afraid to take to the skies but, then again, when you have Spitfires and Hurricanes at your disposal then you are in good hands. They should feel proud of what they did, unlike the cocky arrogance in Smolensk.
TheOther 5 | 3,758
12 Aug 2010 #77
Roosevelt and Stalin didn't take Churchill serious anyway. For them he was probably just a wimp who had to be grateful that his country had been bailed out once again by its former colonies.
Archyski - | 45
12 Aug 2010 #78
As soon as I see these runny hypocritic noses, it enrages me, I have to admit.

It bugs everybody. I know as a Polak that Ukraine did suffer under the Polish occupation.

And that's why we can ask our self, what is glorious history ? When a country had glorious imperialist days, it would mean the opposite for the occupied country. Just look at the colonial time.
Lukasz 49 | 1,746
12 Aug 2010 #79
Nathan Polish Ukrainian war is complicated issue but as far as I know you fought against the children in Lwów.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lwów_Eaglets

"Lwów Eaglets (Polish: Orlęta Lwowskie) is a term of affection applied to the Polish child soldiers who defended the city of Lviv (Polish: Lwów, German: Lemberg) in Eastern Galicia, during the Polish-Ukrainian War (1918-1919)."

Later most of Ukrainians were on Soviet side, it is enough to see current Ukrainian polices to believe that it was possible. Honestly saying Ukrainian problem was that most of them didn't care, some were on Soviet side, some were on Polish side, some fought against everybody.

In my opinion Ukrainians made mistake, if there was massive support of Ukrainians for Poland in war against Soviets ... then Ukraine would be independent but Lwów would be in Poland. It is Ukrainian problem that some of your people feel more Russian, some don't want independence, some prefer Poland.

What is more Nathan, some people here like to show that some Polish victories weren't "pure" Polish but in case of 1920 war much more Ukrainians fought against Poland than on Polish side, and what will be hard for Ukrianian nationalists ... many didn't fight for independent Ukraine.
Archyski - | 45
12 Aug 2010 #80
Okay it frightens me that I don't even know this: Is there an Ukrainian language these days, or do they speak mainly Russian ?
Harry
12 Aug 2010 #81
For sure Poland hasn’t betrayed anybody during this war.

Read the treaty of Warsaw (1920) and the treaty of Riga (1921) and then stop lying.
zetigrek
12 Aug 2010 #82
I qualify for several passports and identify myself as being a national of none of those countries.

so what's your ethnicity?
Archyski - | 45
12 Aug 2010 #83
Read the treaty of Warsaw (1920) and the treaty of Riga (1921) and then stop lying.

Harry you just can't stop it, can't you ? We all did read your links, and it gave us nothing !

Stop posting the same links ! You just don't get any further with this !
zetigrek
12 Aug 2010 #84
so what's your ethnicity?

or maybe better question would be where have you born?
aphrodisiac 11 | 2,444
12 Aug 2010 #85
We all did read your links, and it gave us nothing !

what you mean nothing. Two events, which explain that Poland did not follow up on promises. Therefore the mistrust towards Poland by Ukraine is justified, as I think Harry was suggesting.

As for the present situation, Poland has been supporting Ukraine, but one has to ask himself about the motifs, since some Poles claim that Ukraine is not a fully developed nations, since they are converted Poles anyways, so what give. Ukrainian is an official language spoken by millions of Ukrainians, including me.
Archyski - | 45
12 Aug 2010 #86
Ask your self this: Poland was a weak nation after the war, military and economical speaking. Many Ukraine's behaved like **** during the war, and tons of them were against the Polish people. Only few, if you see it in a bigger picture, were polish citizens. Poland had to regain fast after the war, and also after the splitting of the nation, so now the question – what good could the areas do Poland ?

And why is Poland suddenly a ****** country, just because of that single thing ?

And what bugs me the most, is your need to overwrite the polish history, just because we “sold your country”

And if some Ukrainians felt betrayed, I'm sorry for them, but does that make Poland the worst country ever ?
And if you didn't like the support doing the rebellion and so on, then move to Russia if they are so much better to you.
Lukasz 49 | 1,746
12 Aug 2010 #87
Harry Ukraine had bigger population than Poland, and Ukrainians gave Poland in war against Soviets few thousands soldiers. Poland in comparison with smaller population mobilized about one million soldiers. So maybe there was kind of betrayal in case of Pilsudski and Petlura, but it can’t be said that Poland left Ukraine alone in struggle against Soviet Union. It can’t be said because movement we debate about as betrayed had no support on Ukraine. It is not Polish fault that Ukrainians didn’t fight for their independence. Many of them supported “Denekin” who rejected Polish independence and had seen Poland as part of Russian empire many of them were on Soviet side and openly fought agianst Poland.

For Poles who mobilized strong army with clear aims and won the war it is glorious event.
aphrodisiac 11 | 2,444
12 Aug 2010 #88
And why is Poland suddenly a ****** country, just because of that single thing ?

I have never said it, you said it.

And what bugs me the most, is your need to overwrite the polish history, just because we "sold your country"

nobody is overwriting history, incorporating certain fact into a history is a wise thing to do for any country.

And if some Ukrainians felt betrayed, I'm sorry for them, but does that make Poland the worst country ever ?

who said that, because it was not me.

Ukrainians don't have to move anywhere, they are in their own country. Stop swearing please.

I understand it, but the facts are facts.
Archyski - | 45
12 Aug 2010 #89
I understand it, but the facts are facts.

But your facts doesn't explain the bigger picture. Look what Lukasz is writing.

And those things about Poland, Harry said them. It just sounded like you were supporting him, sorry for that. And "no you don't have to move to Russia", I just don't see your mistrust to the polish support in now days. Sorry for helping !

And where is your fact's about tons of Ukrainians fighting against the poles ?

You don't believe that we actually was looking forward to “sell Ukraine” in the past ? Please, look at the bigger picture, if you Ukrainians didn't liked being sold to Russia, why didn't you fight harder with us ? We had nothing to do with Ukraine. We sold areas we couldn't use, the Ukrainians couldn't use us, so why this anger why not put it against the Russians ?

-I'm off.
Lukasz 49 | 1,746
12 Aug 2010 #90
When we talk about modern Ukraine, I hold my thumbs for as independent, as unified Ukraine as it is possible.
From the other hand, it seems we have different views on some events in the past.


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