Polish-German alliance.

13 Mar 2009 #271

Are you out of your senses? And what about thousands and thousands of burned villages and towns?

Ever heard of Stalins "scorched earth" order? What do you think that meaned?

...In case of forced retreat of Red Army units, all rolling stock must be evacuated, the enemy must not be left a single engine, a single railway truck, not a single pound of grain or gallon of fuel. Collective farmers must drive off all their cattle and turn over their grain to the safe keeping of the state authorities, for transportation to the rear. If valuable property that cannot be withdrawn, must be destroyed without fail.

The peasants were left with nothing, the rest took the partisans (and beware if the peasants didn't want to give their last cow)...
And when the red army came back many of them got trialed as alleged collaborateurs and murdered!

(Of course in the still prevailing soviet WWII narrative EVERY burned house, every murdered peasant is the guilt of the german soldiers, isn't it...)

What a great opportunities to lay all blame even for your own murders on the feet of the enemy....remember Katyn? And you can I believe even today still find museums in Russia who show "human soap" and present it as truth...

The war propaganda never really ended!

infoukes.com/history/ww2/page-06.html

...As the Soviet authorities and army retreated from Ukraine in 1941, Stalin's scorched earth policy left a trail of destruction including the Dniprohes Dam on the Dnieper River, which was the largest hydro electric power dam in Europe, countless mines and major industrial factories, and Khreschchatik Street in the capital city of Kiev. On November 3, 1941 the famous architectural monument, the Dormition Cathedral in the Pecherska Lavra built 1073 in Kiev, was destroyed.
Moscow tried to blame the Germans for destroying this superb example of medieval Ukrainian architecture but it was proven to be the work of a Soviet bomb squad which had mined it before their retreat and later set it off killing Germans...

....many, many of such examples when you go searching!

news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/june/22/newsid_3526000/3526691.stm

...At the same time, the retreating Soviet troops destroyed crops and burnt entire villages under Stalin's "scorched earth" policy to prevent supplies falling into German hands.

ConstantineK 26 | 1298

13 Mar 2009 #272

Sh!t, do you understand that it was Germany who began the war? You are juggling with facts. There was nothing similar with scorched land from Stalin's side. Quite the contrary, there was the order "not a single inch of land for enemy". The scorched land was provided by the german troops after their retreat. Special battalions of incendiarys were burning whole villages in 1941-1943. Here I am speaking about the facts I know from my grandma who had lived in this time in small village near Moscow.

Bratwurst Boy 8 | 11774

13 Mar 2009 #273

You are juggling with facts. There was nothing similar with scorched land from Stalin's side.

Man....you can read, can't you? Google for yourself...
One can lead a horse to the water but can't force it to drink!

Here I am speaking about the facts I know from my grandma who had lived in this time in small village near Moscow.

PS: Be glad Stalin didn't raze Moscow to the ground just in case the Germans got even nearer...but then I remember you telling that a proud and right thing to do even if it would had meant to sacrifice your grandma!

telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/3568041/Stalin-planned-to-destroy-Moscow-if-the-Nazis-moved-in.html

PS: Stalin didn't need the Wehrmacht to destroy the land and kill millions of people!
It didn't start with the invasion and didn't end with the fall of the Nazis...

artukraine.com/famineart/mace12.htm

....The further work with this material we leave to posterity. We simply could not endure the pain and horror. Stalin's sociological scorched earth policy maimed Ukraine to such an extent that it created a discontinuity in the normal development of the Ukrainian people, producing a unique situation....

Borrka 37 | 592

13 Mar 2009 #274

You are juggling with facts.

Wrong, Kostik.
He is lying on purpose - I know pretty good this kind of neo-Nazi propaganda.
Take it for granted: BB would never post this stuff on some German forum.
Whitewashing of hitlerites is not allowed
in the Bundesrepublik.
Just playing great Zampano on Polish board lol.

Bratwurst Boy 8 | 11774

13 Mar 2009 #275

He is lying on purpose

Where am I lying Borrka? Prove me wrong...I post objective links, not opinions.
It must be hard wading through decades of propaganda but the truth is worth it, believe me, give it a try!

wumag.kiev.ua/index2.php?param=pgs20071/80

...In the soviet times, the history of the second World War was a very sensitive subject and one-volume and many-volumed histories published then were heavily biased; very many facts were suppressed or twisted in an attempt to hide the appalling truth about the war...

...One of the reasons the truth was prevented from being revealed in the soviet times was the unjustified deaths of millions of soviet soldiers and civilians in that war - deaths which resulted from mistakes made by soviet commanders at all levels and from the pressure exercised by Stalin and other soviet leaders to have a city defended or captured, or a battle won at all costs by certain dates, important for propaganda reasons.

You start to sound like a Jew crying "ANTI-SEMITE" every time one criticizes Israel.
Only for you it's either neo-nazi or nazi-apologist...poor sod!
Is Stalin still such a hero for you? Do you really believe his utterings to be the truth?
I never knew Poles believed all what the Stalinists told them...or did the Stalinists only lie about Poland and the Poles and told the truth about the Germans???

...
Stalin called upon the soviets to pursue the scorched-earth policy in his address made on July 3. Not only military installations, factories and other things that could be put to military or other use by the invading forces were to be destroyed, but also all the foodstuffs too. A great many people were indeed evacuated - but millions remained in the territories occupied by the Germans. Without food, they faced starvation. There were many civilian casualties when the soviets blew up factories and other facilities without warning the people who lived nearby - the way it happened, for example, when the soviets blew up the dam of the Dniprohes power station on the Dnipro.

Untold number of the helpless wounded and sick were left behind or physically destroyed. These harrowing things are described in the recently published book, Velyka Vitchyznyana Viyna. Spohady ta rozdumy ochevydtsya (Great Patriotic War - Reminiscences and Reflections) by Fedir Pihido-Pravoberezhny. But in the postwar years, soviet propaganda and servile soviet historians claimed that the evacuation was well-organized and omitted mentioning the horrors of the scorched-earth policy.

All liars of course...

Borrka 37 | 592

13 Mar 2009 #276

Prove me wrong...

Reemtsma exhibition was enough to prove you wrong.

goethe.de/wis/fut/ins/en3150943.htm

For some reasons I'm not going to use sarcasm or irony in this topic.
But generation of my Grandparents is still alive.
Actually it was my Grandfather who told me the story about expulsion from Pommern to GG.
Guess who did it ?
SS, SA or Gestapo ?
Nope.
His German neighbors.

Bratwurst Boy 8 | 11774

13 Mar 2009 #277

More "lies":
It doesn't get more direct!

...
To deny the German army the possibility of settling down in villages and cities, to chase out the German occupiers from all settlements into the cold of the field, to smoke them out of all living quarters and warm shelters and to force them to freeze to death under the open sky - that is an task not to be postponed, from the accomplishment of which the acceleration of the shattering of the enemy and the destruction of his army depends to a great extent.

The Headquarters of the Supreme Command orders:

1. To completely destroy and burn down all settlements in the rear area of the German troops in a depth of 40 to 60 kilometers from the main line of combat and 20 to 30 kilometers to the left and right of the roads.

That was an official order! There are your thousands of burned towns and villages!
But go on, blame the Germans...

The above is a rendering of the full text of Stalin Order 0428 of 17 November, 1941.

books.google.com/books?id=PGANqVNdjKQC&pg=PA56&lpg=PA56&dq=Stalin+Order+0428&source=bl&ots=hhDQsRWTQX&sig=Ua8bjcCj1IIGo-6QBto3mgCx3hA&hl=en&ei=bje6SfDZKIq1-QaxteHLBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=3&ct=result

For some reasons I'm not going to use sarcasm or irony in this topic.

The last outlet of the helpless, bad jokes against uncomfortable truths...but it's not really a funny matter.
But when even russians and ukrainians today openly doubt the soviet narrative about the darker truth's of this war, why can't you even start to think for yourself?

What are you fearing?

ConstantineK 26 | 1298

13 Mar 2009 #278

I have nothing to say. Here lay the initial grains of future Prussian militarism. It seems to me that we will have new great war in the future. Hitler and his war machine were only the parts and episodes of prussian-unker ideology. Somehow it managed to revive after first and second wars.

Bratwurst Boy 8 | 11774

13 Mar 2009 #279

I have nothing to say.

Just go and read and learn...the world of information is now open for you too!

(And exactly that will hinder the start of a new war or the overwhelming power of propaganda being able to whip up hate against another country...because everybody can now get information for himself not dependent on official, selected feedings)

Borrka 37 | 592

13 Mar 2009 #280

Always the same type of "polemics".
Accusing of ignorance, being brainwashed victims of propaganda ...
No facts as usual or rather twisting the facts.
Actually how do you dare to teach us your lesson given your DDR-background, the most brainwashed part of Comecon ?
Obviously two hours "Wir sind das Volk" revolt is not enough for some mental evolution lol.

Bratwurst Boy 8 | 11774

13 Mar 2009 #281

Did nobody teach you to discuss seriously Borrka? Only sarcastic blah blah instead of arguments? Again...what are you fearing?

Apropos Reemtsma:

de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wehrmachtsausstellung#Kritik_von_Historikern

Learn Borrka, open your eyes and learn...

Rafal_1981

13 Mar 2009 #282

Reemtsma exhibition was enough to prove you wrong.

goethe.de/wis/fut/ins/en3150943.htm

I didn't know about this facts. Thanks

Bratwurst Boy 8 | 11774

13 Mar 2009 #283

I didn't know about this facts. Thanks

You know german Rafal, don't you?
For you the same...

de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wehrmachtsausstellung#Kritik_von_Historikern

Google Translation: German » English

... 1999, the Polish historian Bogdan Musial for errors in the assignment of ten photos that are not German, but Soviet crimes in summer 1941 show. "He asserted, moreover," approximately half "of the photos showed acts that nothing to do with war crimes had to be done [10].

The Hungarian historian Krisztián Ungváry declared a six pictures shown Distraint Serbian youths in a Yugoslav town was not of the Wehrmacht soldiers, but members of the Hungarian army were executed.

Only ten percent of all involved 800 photos actually showed Wehrmacht crimes, the other acts were of Hungarian, Finnish and Croatian soldiers, "assistant willing" from Ukraine, Russia and the Baltic States or members of the SS and the Security Service (SD). [11 ] Dieter Schmidt-Neuhaus doubted four photos of the victims of a massacre in Tarnopol should show [12].

The military historian Rolf-Dieter Müller of Militärgeschichtlichen Forschungsamt took this criticism on the issue and threw authors before the mass audience to have misled [13].

------------------------------------

PS: There is nobody who would deny the partaking of some german military in atrocities and war crimes it happened...but please, keep it realistic! It happened

on all sides. Stalin used his own civilians as human shields, that accounts for most of their deaths, not the german army!
I mean when even russian historians like Lomov and Epifanov start to doubt all this propaganda about the inhuman german "beasts" that should give you a hint...

Rafal_1981

13 Mar 2009 #284

Quote from the English version of the article:

"The fundamental statements made in the exhibition about the Wehrmacht and the war of annihilation in 'the east' are correct. It is indisputable that, in the Soviet Union, the Wehrmacht not only 'entangled' itself in genocide perpetrated against the Jewish population, in crimes perpetrated against Soviet POWs, and in the fight against the civilian population, but in fact participated in these crimes, playing at times a supporting, at times a leading role. These were not isolated cases of 'abuse' or 'excesses'; they were activities based on decisions reached by top level military leaders or troop leaders on or behind the front lines"

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wehrmachtsausstellung

However to give you a justice (translation):

In 1999 Polish-born historian Bogdan Musial pointed to mistake by the allocation of ten photos which do not show German, but Soviet crimes " in summer, 1941. " In addition, he stated, " the actions which would have had to do nothing with war crime showed possibly half " of the photos. [10] Hungarian historian Krisztián Ungváry explained, an execution shown on six photos of Serbian youngsters in a Yugoslavian town is not from armed forces soldiers

de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wehrmachtsausstellung

Bratwurst Boy 8 | 11774

13 Mar 2009 #285

Of course you know about Katyn...but do you know about Winniza?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinnytsia_massacre

...Most of the bodies were found in the fruit orchard (5,644 bodies). Altogether, 91 mass graves were discovered at the three different locations and 9,432 bodies were exhumed;

...A monument was also erected to the "Victims of Stalinist Terror". Later the Soviet authorities rededicated the monument to the "Victims of Nazi Terror", finally completely removing it and creating an entertainment park in its place.[4...

Propaganda/history is still full of Winniza's....massacres by the Soviets but blamed on the Germans!
So please excuse me if I find offense with that and don't want to accept that quietly...that has nothing to do with white washing real atrocities done by german troops (there were already enough of them).

And I can't see a russian exhibition about russian war crimes forthcoming, can you?

However to give you a justice (translation):

Thanks...

Just saying... the murder and terror in the Sovietunion didn't start with the invasion of the Wehrmacht (and it didn't end with it).

Rafal_1981

13 Mar 2009 #286

Not clear to understand why this part of an article is absent form English Wikipedia?

It's just a mere suggestion? Difficult to proof? To controversial? Germans are to lazy to translate?

Any ideas?

Bratwurst Boy 8 | 11774

13 Mar 2009 #287

I'm not sure if it's the Germans duty to make the articles in english also...maybe to lazy....sometimes it is just better to be bilingual :)

k98_man

13 Mar 2009 #288

Germans are to lazy to translate?

Why can't you translate? Don't throw in random insults because you have nothing better to say.

No facts as usual or rather twisting the facts.

He produced not only links, but paragraphs full of bolded sentences so you can be lazy and not go searching for his point. What more do you want? A masters thesis?

Bratwurst, you can't blame them. I really do think it's Soviet occupation that has caused this. How else could Poles forgive the Soviets for Katyn etc.? And the aggressors in the war were as much Germany as the Soviet Union (see baltic state take overs, Polish advance, and Finnish war)

The saddest thing is most of them are so willing to hate Germans (and some even want to kill all the soldiers etc.) that it's like a hatred for race or nationality alone....which sounds kind of familiar for what we're talking about....?

Rafal_1981

13 Mar 2009 #289

Why can't you translate? Don't throw in random insults because you have nothing better to say.

LOL. Are you for real? You want me to translate a German article about Wermaht crimes on Polish nation with special consideration to whitewash Ze Germans? ;-]

I'm tolerant bloke, however my tolerance for stupidity has it's limits.
If there is no German willing to do that, that's their problem.
I translated it for you, that was my best offer, LOL
Who are you anyway, what's your education level? Brathwurst Boy, is he your mate? ;-]
LMAO

Bratwurst, you can't blame them. I really do think it's Soviet occupation that has caused this. How else could Poles forgive the Soviets for Katyn etc.? And the aggressors in the war were as much Germany as the Soviet Union

So, in your opinion we should forget about German crimes instead? LOL
BTW: I suggest you to read a title of this thread.

The saddest thing is most of them are so willing to hate Germans (and some even want to kill all the soldiers etc.) that it's like a hatred for race or nationality alone....which sounds kind of familiar for what we're talking about....?

Familiar to Germans. Not to us :-]

k98_man

13 Mar 2009 #290

You want me to translate a German article about Wermaht crimes on Polish nation with special consideration to whitewash Ze Germans? ;-]

Alright, well you don't have to throw in insults about Germans being too lazy to translate. In my opinion it just shows me how insecure you are with your argument...but that's just me.

I never said anything about forgetting German crimes. I say convict and punish those who perpetrated the crimes. The problem I found was some arguments (and I don't think you were among them) that said that all SS and Wehrmacht are guilty, they all deserve to die, blah blah blah. I'll I'm trying to do is propose many crimes from the other perspective as well, while first admitting the wrongdoing of many Germans.

I'm an American, 18 years old with university next year and...Bratwurst boy and I don't know each other too well.

And I think we have (including you) gone far off topic already...

Filios1 8 | 1336

13 Mar 2009 #291

American,

18 years

That explains it..

Once your balls have dropped, maybe come back onto PF in a few years, and I'm sure your views will have changed for the better.

Who knows, maybe you will see the light eventually.

k98_man

13 Mar 2009 #292

Lol. Don't bring my age into anything. In the field of World War II, I'd like to ask how many publications do you have?

I have three papers published on topics of World War II (Greek campaign, Azad Hind volunteer legion etc.). I also have halped publish several books (Panzerkampfgruppe Strachwitz by Michael Pruett, both volumes of Grossdeutschland I and II by Scott Pritchett, and The Wehrmacht on All Fronts 1939-1945 by Clemens Ellmauthaler).

Not only that, but I've spoken in depth with the two-time former prime minister of Estonia, member of parlaiment, and leader of his political party Mart Laar about collaborating with works pertaining to fights in 1944 in Estonia. In the same meetings I've spoken with members of Dutch parlaiment (because of the high number of Dutch volunteers in the battle).

I've spent the last three years writing a book that is now at the publisher and is due to hit bookshelves in 2011 with the help of these political figures (in research).

So please...don't give me some bullshit about my age. Age doesn't matter....what you've done in those years does.

Filios1 8 | 1336

13 Mar 2009 #293

I say convict and punish those who perpetrated the crimes.

You ever heard of the term, guilty by association? Ever heard of the term, "middle man?"

Borrka 37 | 592

13 Mar 2009 #294

Leberwurst-Boy, reading your posting gives me a strange deja vu feeling.
Your kind of argumentation reminds me of the German "Dresden" movie.

Sure, bombing of Dresden towards the end of ww 2 was bad and probably didn't make too much sense unless we speak of some revenge for Coventry, Warsaw, Minsk.

I can hardly imagine feelings of people in those days.

But German movie makers used this opportunity to rewrite the history, to change the proportions, to relativise the past.
British "beasts" bombing innocent German population of Dresden whose main occupation was protecting RAF pilots and Jews against Gestapo.

This sort of films is slowly but surely becoming the main stream of German (but not only German) ww2 cinema. Just to name "Dresden", "Eine Frau in Berlin", "Gustloff", last but not least Cruise's dream of Stauffenberg ('It's Bound To Be Rubbish' LOL).

PS. BB are you more for Holger Apfel or Juergen Gansel ?

Bratwurst Boy 8 | 11774

13 Mar 2009 #295

Leberwurst-Boy, reading your posting gives me a strange deja vu feeling.
Your kind of argumentation reminds me of the German "Dresden" movie.

It isn't so much MY argumentation...I took care to post non-german sources, even russian ones....and what could compare to Stalins original orders?

I just don't need as much "interpretation" of facts....the same facts you seem to have problems with...because they are pointed out to you by a German?

Till now you only seem to be able to answer with bad jokes or sarcasm...no counter arguments, nothing to show were I was wrong.

(But accusing the adversary of being a neo-nazi or a nazi apologist is still a last "weapon" when everything else failed, right? Right! How lame...)

But you are right...the so called history "mainstream" in Germany changed abit during the last years...concentrating more on our own german stories...I see nothing wrong with that...every country does that...and this has zilch to do with "rewriting" history, because all these stories really happened too and nothing get's rewritten but only now talked about!

Dresden", "Eine Frau in Berlin", "Gustloff"

All of those things happened...what do you care as a Pole if Germans talk about it?

PS: You should try "Stauffenberg"....not bad at all! :)

Borrka 37 | 592

13 Mar 2009 #296

I'll tell you a secret BB.
I'm not discussing on Internet boards.
I'm spreading the only true views by means of sarcasm, demagogy, trained eristic.
BTW. I don't consider you to be nazi or similar - I wouldn't even click my keyboard for morons like that.

Bratwurst Boy 8 | 11774

13 Mar 2009 #297

I'm spreading the only true views by means of sarcasm, demagogy, trained eristic.

Thanks for letting me in! :)

Crow 154 | 9272

19 Mar 2009 #298

Kosovo Albanians in alliance with Germany persecuted local Serbians during WWII

As it was back in that time, it is so today... so, what would Poles in such an alliance

Rafal_1981

19 Mar 2009 #299

Poland was never in alliance with Ze Germans...and I doubt if we ever will be.
We don not share a common values and our temperaments are totally different.

Bratwurst Boy 8 | 11774

19 Mar 2009 #300

Well, we are in a economical and political alliance together (EU) and in a military alliance (NATO), it doesn't get much closer than that...

In what world are you living Rafal?