Poland Heraldry and Nobility in names/families

Also known as a fee or fief. Here is a definition: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fee_(feudal_tenure)

Ya rozmovlyau po Russki;o)

I'm from East Ukraine.

Gday Gene, and welcome to the forum. I'm wearing a several hundred year old signet ring which has my family's herb on it. It's got crowns, shields, wings, horseshoes and arrows on it. On the sides of the ring, where it isn't too worn, it has what looks to be once elaborate baroqueish scroll work. I've got a signet stamp at home with the herb on it too.

I'm not sure when the crest was acquired/created. I can trace my ancestors back to 1583 based on the internet, and I have a copy of a family tree that was started back in the 1770's and added on til about the mid 1800's. I am aware that some of my ancestors have held senior positions in Poland and that one of my ancestors went with a small contingent of his troops to Vienna in 1683. It seems as though my family had a strong military tradition, as nearly all the family photos I have from about the mid 1800's to the 1930's have males of my line in military gear. My great great great grandfather is photographed wearing Sarmatian attire, fur kolpak, cloak and high boots included (as well as the handlebar moustache). We originated in what is now Ukraine, and bred horses there.

Legend has it that my family's genesis goes back to the early 1300's, and that we are descended from Tatars. I'll probably never know for sure though.

The Polish nobility was very different to the rest of Europe. Norman Davies gives an excellent account of this in his work "God's Playground". Cheers.

A great thread - thanks. In reality, our nobility had probably as many titles as its equivalents elsewhere. We can look into the subject in a greater depth. For the time being, I recommend the following Polish heraldry sites:

gajl.wielcy.pl

ebuw.uw.edu.pl/dlibra/publication?id=49

pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herb_szlachecki_(lista_herb%C3%B3w)


Why wouldn't you know? If you try to dig into the subject, do some serious research, you should succeed in finding out. So the Polish nobility was allegedly "very different to the rest of Europe"? Why? - "Very different" - wow. Concerning Norman Davies, I would advise some caution with his opinions. Not because he is allegedly a "Polonophile." Actually, from my viewpoiont, he is at times Polonophobic. ( I noticed that, sometimes, when somebody likes another nation, he at the same time has a dislike towards it. Strange how the human mind works.) For example, in "Rising 44" he skips mentioning the Polish last names, uses only the first letters of them, on the grounds they're too difficult for the British public to read, or something of this sort. And he quotes a stupid, racist opinion of Dickens on the Polish language as a justification for it. Norman Davies is Welsh and, if I remember it right, in "Isles" he complains about the discrimination by the English against the Welsh language. So when he says the Polish nobility was "very different" from the nobles elsewhere, I advise not to take his word for it.

Ozi Dan, Ya, it seems everyone from royal clans seem to be afilited with their countries family at one point or another. And owners of land, and usualy a small town.

Puzzie, you are welcome. Also I think that Polsih were slightly different then a lot of other Europeans because they treated their royals much more equaly, and I think Polish as people are much more prone to give people respect. Your zlata had primarily the Lord title, unlike the others, which had:

King & Queen consort or Princess consort
Queen & King consort or Prince consort
Queen dowager or Queen mother
Princess dowager or Princess mother
Grand Duke & Grand Duchess
Grand Prince & Grand Princess
Viceroy & Vicereine
Archduke & Archduchess
Infante & Infanta
Duke & Duchess
Prince & Princess
Marquess & Marchioness
Marquis & Marquise
Margrave & Margravine
Count & Countess
Earl & Countess
Viscount & Viscountess
Baron & Baroness
Freiherr & Freifrau
Baronet & Baronetess
Hereditary Knight, Ritter
Knight & Dame
Nobile, Edler von

I guess you are right about the titles. And yes, we were different in the way we related to our royals; they were elected, not inheriting the throne. The political system we had during the First Commonwealth is called "demokracja szlachecka" meaning: "noble democracy." It was a democracy, but exclusively for the szlachta (the nobility). The peasant masses did not participate in it.

So you are Eastern Ukrainian? Maybe of Cossack origin?

Nice to meet you, brother.

Puzzie, I'm not going to go into what I am, I got a whole threat I'm explaining my origins, and keep arguing with a few people on this website about who and what I am. I will tell you this: I'm a white guy who practices Judaism from Eastern Ukraine, my grandpa and grandma are from Belarus, some on the other side are from Northern Ukraine. We found 3 European family crests belonging to our clan, and we got some oral tradition of being from royal stock. By religious tradition our last name is the highest "honorary" one can get, and we were also given the title of a Kosher butcher (so everyone in our village, including the priest has to pay us if he wants to eat meat). Here's a link to our families facebook group. I think that can sum up who we are better.

facebook.com/groups/223616031059309/

(This is the post where we, and my hators argue, I just hope they can keep it in there and not bring it into this threads. I'm posting this for your amusement)

Khazar migrations to Eastern Poland, Belarus, and Ukraine

Correction: Ozi Dan, I wanted to say that all royal clans were usually affiliated with their countries military. So it's no surprise to find that you have a solid military tradition in your family.

Very interesting - a religious Jew coming from - as I understand - the Polish szlachta, amongst others?

No Puzzie, not part of Polish szlachta!

Just curious about it.

Puzzie, I find it strange that a Jewish family from Eastern Europe has European looking family crests. It's weird to myself. I know a Jewish guy who's family converted to Catholicism and they became Polish Lords. He recently took up Judaism.

PS. I didn't know your zlata voted on who is going to be the lead monarch. That's friggin cool! That does give a certain "family" feel to the whole nation. Especially since Poland had a such a large number of Lords (so it seems). How was the general relations between lords and their landed subjects?

should be " landed slaves. ".

There were some Jews knighted by the Polish kings after having converted to Christianity. In fact, my own family on my dad's side comes from such converts (in the 1700s Ukraine, which was part of Poland then). They, those Jewish converts on my family's spear side, were called the Frankists, and, as I understand, were strongly disliked by the Talmudic Jews.


Do you mean what were the relations between the szlachta nad the peasantry? If so, they weren't great, I'm afraid.

Can you elaborate more on this?

Please aviod this disgusting word... In Poland it had nothing to do with being "royal". Crowds bowing to some guy is not our pair of shoes.

ha ha !
in your dreams ? or in Poland 2012?

You mean lemings ? Hopefully it is a very short living phenomenon...

I doubt it somehow.

Grzegorz_

Don't take the meaning of that word too literal. I know a "royal" who live in a trailer in Texas.

Gene, I gladly will, but a little later. I haven't forgotten your thread and your question; I'm just a bit busy now. Just a quickie: in Poland we have a monumental work, by medievalist Kazimierz Tymieniecki (d. 1968), entitled "Historia chlopow polskich" (History of Polish Peasantry; 3 volumes ).

Hi Puzzie. For me, it's just a legend, because I don't have anything tangible to say that we are descended from these people.


I mean in the sense of their percentage, their makeup, their freedoms, their politics, dress, etc etc.


Yes, I'm aware of this, and thought it was a good idea to attract and hold a wider audience. Speaking of names, I read a post on this forum recently where a monument has been erected in Warsaw to an Indian Maharajah who adopted Polish children during WW2 - his name was shortened so as to make it easier for Poles to pronounce. Swings and roundabouts my friend ;)

Hi Gene. Some Jewish Poles were ennobled after conversion to Catholicism. I think Davies sets out the numbers, and in what years, in God's Playground.

Gene, sorry, brother, for not writing yet on the subject of nobility- peasants relations. It's not that I'm disregarding you, only when I discuss a subject I try to have my facts right. It's common knloledge the noble tratment of peasantry in Poland wasn't nice, but I'd like to give you some good examples. I had a book with some graphic descriptions and I've been looking for it unsuccessfully.


I don't think it's a good idea; to me it's a fishy, political move. If Anglo-language audience can tolerate, for instance, full, unshortened Russian or indeed East Indian names, it can tolerate Polish ones as well.

I am an American with 100% Polish bloodline and I am trying to search the meaning of my family coat of arms. My surname is Jaskolka and the crest has a completely red backround and what appears to be 4 (four) post's or column's holding up a geometrically shaped roof in the color gold. If anyone can help me I would greatly appreciate it. Thank you for any help.

What is on the shield, is NOT a "crest". It is part of the heraldic achievement, called "the arms". The "crest" is placed on the helmet.

Merged: Genealogy and heraldry: closely linked....

Hi there! Thanks for accepting me into this forum. Considering how many people of Polish descent live in Anglo-Saxon acountires there is surprisingly little (or accessible) literature on Polish heraldry. I am sure that if we look back far enough we will find ancestors with the right to bear coat-of-arms. These guys are looking to translate a 100 year old book on Polish heraldry (that was originally written in German) into the English language. Anybody know of an English book on Polish heraldry? Most things I find tend to be in Polish.

kickstarter.com/projects/1744204763/polish-armorial-heraldry-of-the-polish-nobility-in

Zalenski?

Hello: Can anyone tell me what this coat of arms might mean. My great grandparents and many of their ancestors were part of this clan.

Thanks,
Sherry

• 
  Herb_Grabie.jpg
  

@Sheri135

Apparently it was used by many families.
Check this link out and see if your family name is listed.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grabie_coat_of_arms

Yes, I see one of the surnames listed, Czarnowski.

Apparently it was used by many families.
Check this link out and see if your family name is listed.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grabie_coat_of_arms

Merged:

Polish Heraldry

Hello, I'm a third generation pole with polish Surname. I have been looking for a way to find out if I'm entiltled to certain arms, I know polish 'Herbu' work differently to Western Europe's arms. Is there any association, institute or way to find out if my lineage has the right to any specific Herb?

No official Institute as such since the Polish government don't regulate these things in the same way as, say, England and Scotland. There are however private organisations that take an interest.

The best known is: Polskie Towarzystwo Heraldyczne - they have a website however it's worth mentioning that they are mostly elderly people and any online reply from them may not be quick.

There are also groups connected to the heraldry of certain specific families.

If you have Kashub roots from northern Poland, it's worth mentioning that their heraldry subtly differs.

If you're interested, a very well known Polish academic, Rafał Prinke, published an interesting paper with a theory about Polish family crests which is available in English online. He has a fascinating theory about the crests being readable in a particular way due to historic 'Sarmatian' connections.

I can't post links due to a very slow connection however you can Google the organisation I mentioned and the academic paper and they should be easily findable.