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Abortion - how is the Polish government going to deal with this issue?


lesser 4 | 1,311  
26 Apr 2009 /  #151
I learnt biology and I understand it and I don't agree with you. Life starts when the organism begins to function on him/herself. It is when a person takes in first breath. Until then it is a part of a woman and her body. The rest you know what I will say.

Thanks Nathan. Not much more to add to it. :-)

How could I back my words when your every next post confirm my claim? :) I must write that your denial of science is far greater than most of abortion supporters. First breath??? This is unbelievably insane arbitrary claim. It means that according to both of you, mother has supposed right to kill her child even a minute before the birth!!! I think that you need to study biology more... perhaps even open some book destined to primary schools! :)
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
26 Apr 2009 /  #152
Well, freebird is right about the first breath rule being part of the US common law, lesser.

Lesser, please explain what happens to the embryo after 10 weeks. Describe the transition for us please.
SamenessLove 1 | 33  
26 Apr 2009 /  #153
Women were created to bear children, that is their sole purpose, if a woman aborts a child she forfeits her right to live as a human being.

That's a little rough there Sokrates. Is this just for shock value or do you genuinely believe a woman's sole purpose is just to bear children? What does that mean to "forfeit your right to live as a human being"?
Nathan 18 | 1,363  
26 Apr 2009 /  #154
Thanks Nathan.

You are welcome, Freebird :)

I think that you need to study biology more...

Stop torturing biology, Lesser. Biologists can't still figure out whether virus is alive or dead substance and you keep on forcing us to open the books. What do they say? Why is the world still split on that issue - lack of reading? Tell me what you read that will persuade me and others in our

denial of science

I'm not saying you did. I'm asking. The reason is that you mention that there are moments where existence is worthwhile and pleasurable. So what is it about these moments that make it so?

It depends on each one of us. Each sees the sense and pleasure in existence in something different; it depends on your interests and likings.

You're kind of getting to the heart of the matter here. Who should make laws that go to the heart of ethical issues? It could be said US society condemns hitting a child as punishment. You can get in trouble for that. But who knows better? Parents or society how to discipline a child? It's really about individuals who have a strong sense of ethics and then go on to make the laws.

I think you left it open to debate, right, Samenesslove? Because who knows who is correct on moral issues and who has a strong sense of ethics. Usually those people write books and die quietly somewhere in the backyard. Politics is not their force usually. I am not defending slapping a child, but taking away this form of bringing up from occasional utilization by parents causes certain gaps in children's education. They become uncontrollable in many cases. Humanity is trying to escape its roots as an animal and make itself as something over everything. I think that school shootings in the US is partially caused by this faulty change in law.

And you use the word parents, but does that include the father as having a right to stop an abortion or to initiate one? What about having a law that says parents have a right to a choice to whip their children? What exactly is it about abortion that there should be a choice?

I personally think that both have to decide, but mother should have a final say and if she against, then it means "no".

If by "whip" you mean slapping on the butt, why not? I was slapped once by my father and it gave me a lesson for the whole life. And I am greatful for it as strange as it may seem to an American. I don't see anything wrong in it. But don't take me wrong - I am not saying beating up.

If people have no right over their own bodies and their sexual life, then why to have rights at all? Who needs freedom of speech or confessing a religion? Why should there be a choice?
freebird 3 | 532  
26 Apr 2009 /  #155
It means that according to both of you

No it means that we're right even according to our law and all you have to come up against it is your personal point of view powered by your religion represented by your pope which you can obviously have and defend as long as you want. Hey, no point to discuss it any longer since this discussion will be unfair either way for both of us. I believe in God too but I don't believe in pope (church) and all the rules by which you live are created by the church and not by God and this is why I will not follow your rules. Abortion is not a murder whether you like it or not and with this statement this discussion, at least for me, is over. Religion is for Polish people a very sensitive subject and I'm not going to hurt anyone here. Let's just leave it at this point.
gumishu 11 | 5,335  
26 Apr 2009 /  #156
I think that only women should discuss abortion rights since it directly concerns them. Somehow, men are the majority in making those policies and I don't think it's fair.

I would agree to abortion on demand on the side of a woman when the same right is given to the man involved - that is talking about equality wouldn't you agree

or is this a question of a woman owning a child???
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
26 Apr 2009 /  #157
That's a little rough there Sokrates. Is this just for shock value or do you genuinely believe a woman's sole purpose is just to bear children?

And work in the coal mines when she's not cooking dinner.
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
26 Apr 2009 /  #158
It's very relevant, Lesser. What material changes do you see in the transition from embryo to foetus?

You are a smart guy, lesser, so I'll take it to a smart level. Define sentience for me please. Animals are sentient beings, I can tell you that for a fact. I'll let you decide if the embryo is or is not based on solid criteria.

I see where you are coming from though, that we should focus on what the entity in the stomach will become and not what it is or isn't in the earliest formative stages. Still, if life is such a sought after thing, why aren't you out there promoting the creation of new babies? The world is already overpopulated as it is.

I suggest that the pro-lifers focus on the life to be rather than get embroiled in a debate before the first breath is taken.
Nathan 18 | 1,363  
26 Apr 2009 /  #159
And work in the coal mines when she's not cooking dinner.

Sokrates, I see you in the kitchen with an apron around your waist, hastily preparing dinner for the one and when she leaves to do some shopping, you quickly run to the computer to pour out every frustration against women you have or pretend to have against them. And there is not sarcasm in my world. We love to be heroes on our own fronts, killing imaginary enemies and stuff. On the real battlefield our chances are 30% or even less.

So lets ignore science

Ok. We have embryo, then it becomes foetus and after the birth we have an infant. Where along the way we have a human and removal of which will be a homicide? When there is some point, then before that - why wasn't it a human and what made it a such?

You are trying to discredit biologists now? Wow! :))

No, I don't. They are the front of our knowledge and they have many problems to solve in this real labirynth of life. But I see you are constantly avoiding a debate and real answers. I know I am ignorant, but shed some light on me , make me better, let me understand, so I can be defending your side. Please, Lesser.
Babinich 1 | 455  
26 Apr 2009 /  #160
Still, if life is such a sought after thing, why aren't you out there promoting the creation of new babies?

Are you serious?
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
27 Apr 2009 /  #161
No, not really Babinich. Some pro-lifers just get on my goat. Anyone with decency should be pro-life but it's the way they go about their business. They are just self-righteous gits half of the time.
LAGirl 9 | 496  
28 Apr 2009 /  #162
Abortion is Murder!!! no matter what how selfish can you women be you women that disgust me make me sick.what if it was you would you want to be chooped up. this is sick.
moonlight 6 | 103  
28 Apr 2009 /  #163
Whether you like it or not, there will be abortions! There are various different reasons why this option is choosen by women and men (I dont believe it is solely a womans responsibility) and it is definately not an easy choice.

Would you prefer that there were no other option but to go to some dirty back street clinic where the procedure would be carried out by some butcher doctor???? because this is what has happened and what will happen is the choice to have an abortion is not freely available.

Abortion is here, it is not going away, dont you think it is better if it is monitored? That there are Regulations in place to ensure it is not abused. That information and guidance on ALL options is provided. Then an informed choice can be made.

In countries where abortion is illegal - what happens? Women go to a country where it is legal! How can anyone think by making it illegal it will slove it.
CoolMoon 1 | 60  
28 Apr 2009 /  #164
how selfish can you women be you women that disgust me make me sick.

Even if the abortion was done to save the life of the mother?

what if it was you would you want to be chooped up

It's not really a good argument against abortion.

moonlight

I agree with what you say above.

They will always happen behind closed doors anyway. Better that is done in a controlled environment with proper before and after care.
ShelleyS 14 | 2,893  
28 Apr 2009 /  #165
You either follow religion or not.You can't be a little bit pregnant, or a little bit Catholic :-)

Wrong, religious zealots follow religion blindly; rational intelligent people allow themselves to question things that are wrong.

I have used the morning after pill 48 hours later, I could have been a "little" bit pregnant!

All I see is men constantly banging on about abortion and the rights and wrongs, it's simply too much for a man to understand the complexities of the state of a woman’s mind when she finds out she's pregnant, some women are over joyed some are full of dread, some women have a loving man by their side to help them through any doubts and some have an irresponsible pig who couldn't care less.

Why would a woman who has been abandoned by a man ruin her life and burden herself by bringing a child into this world when a man can not even be bothered to stick around? For men who are so against abortion, remember to be very careful when banging that girl you have no intention of spending the rest of your life with! ACCIDENTS HAPPEN!
gumishu 11 | 5,335  
28 Apr 2009 /  #166
Why would a woman who has been abandoned by a man ruin her life and burden herself by bringing a child into this world when a man can not even be bothered to stick around? For men who are so against abortion, remember to be very careful when banging that girl you have no intention of spending the rest of your life with! ACCIDENTS HAPPEN!

it's not only the life of the woman in question
also the life of the child

there is a solution to the question without killing the child

don't know if it is used anywhere else but in Poland someone came up with an idea of
a 'window of life' - where a woman can leave a new-born child completely anonymously and from what I know also without being witnessed - and then care is taken for the child

some religious orders do it but there are also such things in some hospitals
These children often very soon find new families - there are a lot of couples who want to adopt such infants.

I don't know if it has been embeded already in Polish law so that there are no consequences for the mother in question but it seems logical to me.

It is one solution.

There can be also ways implemented to help lone mothers give birth and raise their children (if they want to keep the child and not to give it away)- though this one involves money of course - it is already done in Poland on not so big scale by welfare organizations some religious some not. (they call it children villages 'wioski dziecęce' as far as I know)

anyway the evil of abortion can be avoided

I have no opinion on morning after pill

of course condemning women for having abortions solves nothing just stirs more negative feelings - the feeling of guilt in the women firstmost

also the legal solutions against abortion such as in Poland are not complete if there are no ways implemented to help a woman out

btw there is huge hypocrisy in Polish medical circles when even women who's life is endangered are sometimes refused free abortion (for moral reasons they say - a doctor can refuse performing abortion) and at the same time the underground abortion industry prospers (in private gynecologists practices) - it is sometimes the same people to perform abortion who first refused to perform it for free in a hospital. There is hardly any trace of police raids on underground abortion clinics.
ShelleyS 14 | 2,893  
28 Apr 2009 /  #167
it's not only the life of the woman in question
also the life of the child

It's embryo not a child, it could not function outside of the womb at the very early stages of a pregnancy.

There can be also ways implemented to help lone mothers give birth and raise their children (if they want to keep the child and not to give it away)- though this one involves money of course - it is already done in Poland on not so big scale by welfare organizations some religious some not. (they call it children villages 'wioski dziecęce' as far as I know)

You make it all sound so lovely, but how about the mother that carried that child and how about a child growing up not knowing who it's mother was? These feelings have to be taken into consideration.

Woman abort for many reason, but I think the main one is the feeling of not being able to cope mentally, physically or financially, abortion is NOT an easy option for some women it is the ONLY option. When a woman aborts she will generally only tell a close friend, if a women decides to go on with the pregnancy and then simply leave it on a doorstep, think of the questions that will be asked, it's not really an option, besides regardless of how callous or evil you think women who abort are, I think they care more than someone who would simply abandon a child.

[quote=gumishu]btw there is huge hypocrisy in Polish medical circles when even women who's life is endangered are sometimes refused free abortion (for moral reasons they say - a doctor can refuse performing abortion)/quote]

A doctor has the right to refuse, they can do this in the UK, they can refuse to give out the morning after pill all on religious grounds...hypocrisy is worldwide and not confined to Poland and as you say these same people will quite happily perform an abortion for hard cash!...

This topic is getting as old as Adam himself, there are no rights and wrongs, abortion goes on all around the world, thankfully in the UK woman can undergo this procedure in the safety of a hospital and not some dirty back street clinic, prior to abortion being legalised in the UK

Following the introduction of legal abortion the number of maternal deaths following illegal abortions fell sharply. In 1970-72 (the first full triennium during which legal abortion was available) there were 37 reported deaths from illegal abortion, falling to one in 1979-81. No maternal deaths from illegal abortion have been reported since, including this triennium.

archive.official-documents.co.uk/document/doh/wmd/wmd-ap1.htm

At present, 13% of maternal deaths worldwide are due to unsafe abortions - 60% in some countries.

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4686650.stm
Torq 32 | 2,897  
28 Apr 2009 /  #168
It's embryo not a child, it could not function outside of the womb at the very early stages of a pregnancy

Well, but a newborn child also couldn't function outside of the womb without
constant care and supervision, so? Where do we set the limit? Ability to walk,
to speak or... maybe solving algebraic equations? (I highly recommend a lecture
of "The Pre-Persons" by Philip K. Dick for all those who think that man has right
to decide when "the embryo becomes a baby").

how about a child growing up not knowing who it's mother was?

Oh yes, you're right - let's kill the kid instead. It's better than living,
not knowing who its mother was, right?

Abortion is murder.

May the God Almighty have mercy on those who slaughter innocent, defenseless
babies and those who try to justify this crime. They shall get their "reward".
Nathan 18 | 1,363  
28 Apr 2009 /  #169
May the God Almighty have mercy on those who slaughter innocent, defensless
babies and those who try to justify this crime. They shall get their "reward".

Don't you think we got our "reward' already? It's not about god and how mighty god is. If you read biology which you ask me to read, then you would realize that we are no special in any way and we are just a species of animals coping with life, selection and evolution as all the other animals. God gave us a choice and at the same time we cannot choose "wrong" things because hell is awaiting us. Isn't it interesting? Imagine yourself making toys and if they don't operate on the "free choice program", you then take the toys and put them on fire. But not for 5 minutes to burn them down - noo - for eternity, because you are so pissed off.
ShelleyS 14 | 2,893  
28 Apr 2009 /  #170
Abortion is murder.

You have your views and I have mine, come to me when you are grown up and had a bit of life experience.

Well, but a newborn child also couldn't function outside of the womb without
constant care and supervision, so? Where do we set the limit? Ability to walk,
to speak or... maybe solving algebraic equations?

Okay I will simplify it for you:

A fetus can not breath.
A fetus does not feel
A fetus can not communicate.
A fetus is not a human being.

It's not a cuddly cute, crying, shitting, smelly baby, it is a collection of cells.

by Philip K. Dick for all those who think that man has right
to decide when "the embryo becomes a baby").

quote]

And listen to some Dick going on about things that will never actually affect him, no thanks!

Oh yes, you're right - let's kill the kid instead. It's better than living,
not knowing who its mother was, right?

Again it is NOT murder, it was not a kid and it didn't have any experience of life.

May the God Almighty have mercy on those who slaughter innocent, defenseless
babies and those who try to justify this crime. They shall get their "reward".

It's okay my friend had an audience with the bishop and he absolved her, her sins...so you see that's the benefit of being religious, you can kill babies and still go to heaven ;0)
gumishu 11 | 5,335  
28 Apr 2009 /  #171
having an abortion for fear of being asked questions is an escape from responsibility - trying to keep apparitions costs individuals and societies dear prices - it causes so much stress - the stress you are going through affects others like ripples on water - i think facing the situation is really much better in the end

I know there is not enough love and acceptance around so that women who give a new- -born child away won't get hurt. but not leting it come to this world is creating even more of things that are against love, peace and growth - so the spiral gets thighter

is not allowing a child to live really care for it - letting it live and letting someone else take care of it is much more of care - it is an act of love and what we need in this world is more love - you will get what you give eventually

what modern education lacks is a focus on personal responsibility, yes you can have fun with your body but you should be aware of the possible consequences, spreading a lie that some of the contraceptives are 100 per cent effective does not help

I can imagine a situation when a woman who in spite of not so favourable circumstances in her life gives birth to a child is respected, applauded and perhaps somehow even rewarded by the society - it can be achieved- though maybe it is a long way to go - but if we do not start we won't get there - and I don't say todays religious attitudes help - many religious paradigms ought to change

I still think letting a child live and grow and then sort the things of his/hers origins him/herself is better than not letting it live so that it has no issues with it - it is giving the child a choice - how do we know if the child would have any difficulty with such issues - people are different

anyway my opinion is abortion is no solution just eventually causes even more trouble just most of us can't trace the roots and paths of it (or turn a blind eye)
Nathan 18 | 1,363  
28 Apr 2009 /  #172
having an abortion for fear of asked questions is an escape from responsibility - trying to keep apparitions costs individuals and societies dear prices - it causes so much stress - the stress you are going through affects others like ripples on water - i think facing the situation is really much better in the end

From what you said you never faced anything in your life.

still think letting a child live and grow and then sort the things of his/hers origins him/herself is better than not letting it live so that it has no issues with it - it is giving the child a choice - how do we know if the child would have any difficulty with such issues - people are different

It is a difficult issue and it should be taken by each mother individually. It is woman's body, its life depends on it and takes nourishment from. You don't give a foetus a choice, because it is part of a woman. Therefore, you have to give choice to a woman to decide what to do with her body.
gumishu 11 | 5,335  
28 Apr 2009 /  #173
i don't actually understand how you can claim a phoetus is a part of woman's body - do arms, lungs, kidneys, fingers ever grow appart and start living on their own?

i think it is quite obvious it is a new life that a woman helps start out in this world
Torq 32 | 2,897  
28 Apr 2009 /  #174
come to me when you are grown up and had a bit of life experience.

I'm a happily married man, with two kids (planning to have a third one).
I've received good education at one of the best technical universities
in Poland and I've been through hard times in my life so don't you try
to patronize me.

Okay I will simplify it for you:

No need to simplify anything. It's politically correct simpletons like
yourself, who can't see further than banal slogans of feminists.

A fetus can not breath.

Yes it can. What's the difference if it uses the lungs to get oxygen
or get it directly to his blood system through its mother's blood?

A fetus does not feel

Oh, yes it does! The spinal cord develops full connection to child's brain between
the 11th and 14th week of pregnancy and then the nervous system is completely
capable of feeling pain, so during abortion when the kid is torn to pieces it feels
every bit of pain afflicted by some sadistic, murderous sickfcuk calling himself
"a doctor".

A fetus can not communicate.

That's debatable. Starting from 20th week of pregnancy the baby can hear
and recognize the voice of its mother and also reacts to her emotions.

A fetus is not a human being.

That's your opinion. Luckily for you, your mother wasn't of the same opinion
when you were just a "fetus".

It's not a cuddly cute, crying, shitting, smelly baby, it is a collection of cells.

When that "collection of cells" is about 3 weeks old and the size of half a centimeter,
it already has a small beating heart and everything it needs to develop into a cuddly
cute, smiling, lovely baby.

It's okay my friend had an audience with the bishop and he absolved her, her sins...so you see that's the benefit of being religious, you can kill babies and still go to heaven ;0)

There are certain conditions that have to be met to receive valid absolution,
you don't get it automatically even if the bishop says so. Neither of us really
knows what's going on in your friend's soul so there's no point in bringing such
arguments into discussion.
ShelleyS 14 | 2,893  
28 Apr 2009 /  #175
There are certain conditions that have to be met to receive valid absolution,
you don't get it automatically even if the bishop says so

She got pregnant, she had an abortion, she was 17 years old, no other circumstances, she was given absolution off the Bishop...as far as she is concerned she is forgiven.

Neither of us really
knows what's going on in your friend's soul so there's no point in bringing such
arguments into discussion.

I know exactly what went on in her life because I was the friend she confinded in first and I know exactly how she is years later, she's had a wonderful life, so no devine retribution there....

My point was valid, you said she was evil, yet the bishop said she was "troubled" and forgave her.

By the way Im not some "feminist" I just love the way men throw that one in! I am merely putting another side of the story, maybe trying to make you understand that it's not an easy option for a woman. Maybe you should read the other thread on the board where a guy told his girlfriend to get an abortion...what is he?

That's your opinion. Luckily for you, your mother wasn't of the same opinion
when you were just a "fetus".

What would I have cared, I wouldn't have known about it.

so don't you try
to patronize me.

I can't help it when somone uses words like "evil" to describe a woman who has a termination, but I will try harder not to.
Torq 32 | 2,897  
28 Apr 2009 /  #176
when somone uses words like "evil" to describe a woman who has a termination

What I meant to say is that those who conciously kill unborn babies (or help to do it)
without regretting it, will have their "reward" and I stick to it.
I don't think that's the case with your friend though, because obviously, if she went
to confess her sin then she must have realised that it was wrong and then she got
her absolution.

You see - even if you kill a grown up, innocent man, let's say shoot him in the head
and then you regret it deep in your heart and go to confession - you WILL get your
absolution but IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT SHOOTING PEOPLE IN THE HEAD IS OK
and that we should try to justify it.

where a guy told his girlfriend to get an abortion...what is he?

I will not answer that question, because the words I would like
to use for this man are hardly suitable for public forum.
ShelleyS 14 | 2,893  
28 Apr 2009 /  #177
I don't think that's the case with your friend though, because obviously, if she went
to confess her sin then she must have realised that it was wrong and then she got
her absolution.

Personally I dont feel a "man" has the right to say who is right and who is wrong, only God can do that, so in my opinion she should have just asked God for forgiveness, as we know God is all knowing and all forgiving, so it was just an opportunity for the church to make her life even more miserable than it was, to humiliate her and put her through unecessary stress.

will have their "reward"

Oh goody ;0) I'm going to have get me one of those there abortions so I get me a reward!...

You see - even if you kill a grown up, innocent man, let's say shoot him in the head
and then you regret it deep in your heart and go to confession - you WILL get your
absolution but IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT SHOOTING PEOPLE IN THE HEAD IS OK
and that we should try to justify it.

Not quite the same thing is it, but if that is your justification for hating women then so be it.

I will not answer that question, because the words I would like
to use for this man are hardly suitable for public forum.

Why? You feel justified in your indignation at women and their behavour, what's the word...oh that's it.... Evil......
gumishu 11 | 5,335  
28 Apr 2009 /  #178
well bishop could have forgiven her but is it a binding statement to God :)?

the same way you don't need any priests to have some contact with the reality of God, what priest say is in no ways binding to God

priests are false teachers in many instances anyway

if someone steals my wallet, some sum of money, whatever - I can well forgive him, anyone affected can forgive him (I actually am doign myself a favour more than the person who hurt me) but it still does not withhold retribution that is bound to affect the doer. For what you give you will receive.
Torq 32 | 2,897  
28 Apr 2009 /  #179
Oh goody ;0) I'm going to have get me one of those there abortions so I get me a reward!...

:-)

Well, Shelley - if you really want to see the devil then, believe me,
eventually you will...

...whether you like it or not when it happens is a completely different matter.

if that is your justification for hating women then so be it.

Now, that's just ridiculous. I love women! My wife and little daughters
are the most important people in my life (of course not forgetting my
dear Mama :-)). The only women that I don't like (not "hate" - mind
you) are those who kill their babies and think that it's OK.

what's the word...oh that's it.... Evil......

In which post exactly did I use the word "evil"???

But actually, yes - the deed of killing an innocent baby is very evil.
Nathan 18 | 1,363  
28 Apr 2009 /  #180
the same way you don't need any priests to have some contact with the reality of God, what priest say is in no ways binding to God

priests are false teachers in many instances anyway

if someone steals my wallet, some sum of money, whatever - I can well forgive him, anyone affected can forgive him (I actually am doign myself a favour more than the person who hurt me) but it still does not withhold retribution that is bound to affect the doer. For what you give you will receive.

Not in Catholic Church. What you bind on the Earth will be bound in heaven and what you unbind here will be unbound there. Words of Jesus (at least pretented not to be put in his mouth intentionally). Once you are forgiven by a priest and you received your absolution after a true contrition for your sin, you are a free bird - pure like milk from a mountain cow. So don't worry, Gumishu.

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