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Abortion - how is the Polish government going to deal with this issue?


lesser 4 | 1,311  
2 May 2009 /  #241
well, more or less it is. We're just spending our free time here, discussing about something that has been discussed thousands of times before and to be honest, not achieving anything and it's good so because what kind of achievement would it be? I can't speak for anyone else here but I'm not trying to convince anyone to believe what I believe and I don't want anyone else to try to convince me to change my point of view. It won't work anyway, :-).

On other hand, if I'm wrong about something I would like to be convinced by somebody. I think that there are few people who share this opinion, thus I don't avoid debates even about issues that I consider to be obvious.

If you reject 'old rednecks' and people concentrated exclusively on their day to day existence, you will find some bright young people. Their views might change quickly because they search for truths. Even if I wont convince them immediately at least they will learn about different way of thinking. While someday when they will be already disappointed by pathetic mainstream pop-culture present in mass-media, they try to find out more closely what was my point.
freebird 3 | 532  
2 May 2009 /  #242
pathetic mainstream pop-culture present in mass-media

you see I fully agree to that 1 but do you think we can change anything about it? We can discuss as long as we want to and we won't achieve jack s*it unless you'll become really rich one day and buy some serious a** media like for example MTV and try to do some work there. It's not the older generation that needs changes (OK maybe some) but the young people who follow this like you say pop-culture. Just take a look at the generation of 14 -21 years old, no morals, no respect, unorganized.

I'm talking here about the general situation and not about every young person out there.

Their views might change quickly because they search for truths.

we've been looking for the truth since the beginning of the humanity and tell me now, have we found it?
My answer is NO because everyone has his own point of view about it. It is human to disagree, to think different, to live different etc. This is why we have wars, crimes, conflicts etc.

Sorry lesser but no matter how long we'll discuss it, we won't change the human nature.
One more on a side
If you reject 'old rednecks'
How many years have you lived in the states? Are you American? What do you know about rednecks?
I just wonder because you've mentioned it quite a few times already. You made it sound like you have a first hand information about them.
lesser 4 | 1,311  
2 May 2009 /  #243
you see I fully agree to that 1 but do you think we can change anything about it? We can discuss as long as we want to and we won't achieve jack s*it unless you'll become really rich one day and buy some serious a** media like for example MTV and try to do some work there. It's not the older generation that needs changes (OK maybe some) but the young people who follow this like you say pop-culture. Just take a look at the generation of 14 -21 years old, no morals, no respect, unorganized.

Edmund Burke wrote that The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. and I share this opinion. I think that people who have proper knowledge are obligated to try to hand it to this brighter part of young generation. Who knows, maybe some of them will gain enough influence to begin reinforcement of western cultural heritage. I don't believe in democracy, only elites are capable to move this world forward. Thus the most crucial task is to rear responsible elites.

we've been looking for the truth since the beginning of the humanity and tell me now, have we found it? My answer is NO because everyone has his own point of view about it. It is human to disagree, to think different, to live different etc. This is why we have wars, crimes, conflicts etc.

People are not perfect but always should tend to be perfect. The brightest minds always used to push the world forward and achieved really much. However in the age of populism people bombarded by millions of useless informations struggle to discover proper authority.

I'm afraid that this lack of respect that you mentioned is created by democratic mentality. I mean people without proper education who think that they are capable to decide about how the state should be run. So they are authority for themselves, this to the large extend killing their minds and in the end they have little respect for anybody else including real intellectual elites. They have syndrome of completely unjustified self-content.

If you reject 'old rednecks'
How many years have you lived in the states? Are you American? What do you know about rednecks?

I used this word for the first time and gave it a bit different meaning from traditional one. I mean people about 50 and older not only from the US. It has pejorative connotation that I wanted to underline. The point is that they are not bad people but that their minds are already closed for new informations. From my personal experience (including my family members) honest discussion with them about serious matters is pointless. Of course there are exceptions...
freebird 3 | 532  
3 May 2009 /  #244
I used this word for the first time

not true, you called me a redneck and I told you I'm from NYC, remember? It doesn't really matter because even if I was a redneck, you won't believe how many intelligent people live in the South.

The point is that they are not bad people but that their minds are already closed for new informations.

Actually not, older people in general gathered more experiences than the younger generation and that's why they refuse some of the new stuff. For example I totally refuse techno, rap and hip hop. I think it's not even music, it's just ugly but obviously it's a matter of taste.

I refuse many other things, probably too many to list right now, lol.

They have syndrome of completely unjustified self-content.

Unfortunitely very common by young people.

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing

I agree with this statement but certainly disagree with the point that abortion is a murder. You and I will never agree to this point which still shouldn't make us enemies.
grethomory 1 | 154  
3 May 2009 /  #245
Some liberals are even opposed to abortion so in fact the spectrum of approaches within the liberal mind is scattered all over the place.

Exactly...that is what Pro-Choice is about...it's about choice...many people who are Pro-Choice are not for abortion for themselves. When it comes down to it...essentially you don't want someone telling you what to do with your own body.
SamenessLove 1 | 33  
3 May 2009 /  #246
essentially you don't want someone telling you what to do with your own body.

What is a "body" ? Can you give a detailed description as to what it is exactly that separates human bodies from one another and gives the designation of "own body" ?
grethomory 1 | 154  
3 May 2009 /  #247
Something you were born with....it's yours to do with it what you want to....good or bad..it's yours....

Just remember this: If men could get pregnant...abortion would be just another procedure.
SamenessLove 1 | 33  
4 May 2009 /  #248
Something you were born with....it's yours to do with it what you want to....good or bad..it's yours....

When did "I" get the body exactly? Did I have to be 100% out of the birth canal before I had a body?
Mattewoflv - | 8  
4 May 2009 /  #249
grethomory:
Something you were born with....it's yours to do with it what you want to....good or bad..it's yours....

When did "I" get the body exactly? Did I have to be 100% out of the birth canal before I had a body?

Good question, Awnser that one Grethormoy
grethomory 1 | 154  
4 May 2009 /  #250
I'll answer with this phrase I have been using previously:

If men could get pregnant...abortion would be a 100% accepted procedure and there would not be a discussion surrounding it.

It is a woman's issue. It is her body to do what she wants with it. The minute she came to the understanding that her body was/is hers...it became hers. In other words if something had happened to it before she/he came out of the birth canal...it wouldn't have made a difference, right?
lesser 4 | 1,311  
4 May 2009 /  #251
It is a woman's issue. It is her body to do what she wants with it. The minute she came to the understanding that her body was/is hers...it became hers. In other words if something had happened to it before she/he came out of the birth canal...it wouldn't have made a difference, right?

Do you run abortion clinic? Because this is intellectually offensive pseudo-logical reasoning that you post here. One second before a baby came out of the birth canal haven't this understanding, one second after already have full understanding (or maybe even later?!). That is another new definition, you think that you are capable to decide. While when I read such nonsense I wonder whether you are capable to screw a light bulb???
SamenessLove 1 | 33  
5 May 2009 /  #252
I'll answer with this phrase I have been using previously:

If men could get pregnant...abortion would be a 100% accepted procedure and there would not be a discussion surrounding it.

It is a woman's issue. It is her body to do what she wants with it. The minute she came to the understanding that her body was/is hers...it became hers. In other words if something had happened to it before she/he came out of the birth canal...it wouldn't have made a difference, right?

I've been trying to reply to this for five minutes but your answer just isn't very clear and there is alot of sidestepping in there. "If men could get pregnant" has nothing to do with the question I asked.
grethomory 1 | 154  
6 May 2009 /  #253
Go back and re-read. I answered your question. Just know this: The only reason it is an issue is because men can't get pregnant.
Kapusta 2 | 66  
6 May 2009 /  #254
This is an interesting thread and all views are important but I do wonder to myself why so many more men reply to this than women? It seems that men have much stronger views on abortion than women do. What is the reason for this? Is it because women feel less like commenting because if they don't have strong views on it they don't want to share the views they do have as they are realistic and understand that the future might make them have to make the abortion decision?

Bluntly:

Women comment less because it's a more realistic topic for them (as we women carry the children).

Men comment more because (unless they have been involved in an abortion situation before) they feel it's less likely they'll be in this situation and they have a more yes/no view on this as they will never be the carrier of a child, although they may be the father.

I should point out that I don't have a problem with anyones opinion but I wonder why men comment more than women. Thanks. :)
SamenessLove 1 | 33  
6 May 2009 /  #255
Women comment less because it's a more realistic topic for them (as we women carry the children).

Wouldn't the opposite be true? That when something is a realistic topic for a group then they talk about it more?
grethomory 1 | 154  
6 May 2009 /  #256
This is an interesting thread and all views are important but I do wonder to myself why so many more men reply to this than women? It seems that men have much stronger views on abortion than women do.

Kapusta, lol, isn't that amazing? These men are still trying to tell women what to do...but when the shoe is on the other foot...it's a different story. I'm a guy and I can only imagine the fear of being pregnant, the guy leaving me, and I have a child to raise with no assistance. No one that's telling a woman to keep that child is going to step in and assist her. Not one of these men preaching right now. Many of them will be the first to say, "it's not mine...where's their father?"
lesser 4 | 1,311  
7 May 2009 /  #257
This is an interesting thread and all views are important but I do wonder to myself why so many more men reply to this than women?

This look like that only from your perspective. If you take a wider look then you will find out that this thread have much more female posters than any other in politics/history section.

isn't that amazing?

This is amazing that somebody who is not able (and willing) to defend his point still find appropriate to post anything in this thread.
Kapusta 2 | 66  
7 May 2009 /  #258
This look like that only from your perspective. If you take a wider look then you will find out that this thread have much more female posters than any other in politics/history section

Yes, a wider look I have had but I'm talking about this topic on it's own. More men have an opinion about abortion than women and that's what I wonder about. Ultimately the decision of abortion comes from the woman concerned. If she is in a good relationship then the decision may have been arrived at with her husband or boyfriend but the final decision is hers. So is that the reason more men have opinions on this?
Ironside 49 | 10,447  
7 May 2009 /  #259
I should point out that I don't have a problem with anyones opinion but I wonder why men comment more than women. Thanks. :)

Well, you tell us!

Yes, a wider look I have had but I'm talking about this topic on it's own. More men have an opinion about abortion than women and that's what I wonder about. Ultimately the decision of abortion comes from the woman concerned. If she is in a good relationship then the decision may have been arrived at with her husband or boyfriend but the final decision is hers.

So, if father doesn't want a child and woman go for it regardless then I think he should not pay any child support.
Kapusta 2 | 66  
7 May 2009 /  #260
Well, you tell us!

It's a questions for men or anyone who understands why. I don't, which is why I ask.

So, if father doesn't want a child and woman go for it regardless then I think he should not pay any child support.

You may indeed have a point.
LAGirl 9 | 496  
7 May 2009 /  #261
Aww ABORTION IS EVIL!!!!!!!!!!! And to al you women that dont like it to fucken bad I wll say it all I want.
krysia 23 | 3,057  
7 May 2009 /  #262
So, if father doesn't want a child and woman go for it regardless then I think he should not pay any child support.

he should have thought of this before he fukked her
SamenessLove 1 | 33  
7 May 2009 /  #263
What, the woman doesn't fukk back?

Kapusta, lol, isn't that amazing? These men are still trying to tell women what to do...but when the shoe is on the other foot...it's a different story. I'm a guy and I can only imagine the fear of being pregnant, the guy leaving me, and I have a child to raise with no assistance. No one that's telling a woman to keep that child is going to step in and assist her. Not one of these men preaching right now. Many of them will be the first to say, "it's not mine...where's their father?"

You do know that when Roe v Wade was decided, all 9 justices where men right? 7 voted for, 2 against. Seriously, you have some retarded arguments.

Aww ABORTION IS EVIL!!!!!!!!!!! And to al you women that dont like it to fucken bad I wll say it all I want.

How old are you? I'm against abortion but you're not helping.
Mr Grunwald 23 | 1,661  
7 May 2009 /  #264
Aww ABORTION IS EVIL!!!!!!!!!!! And to al you women that dont like it to fucken bad I wll say it all I want.

and you forgot Allah u Akhbar!
Maybe even I LOVE JEZUS!

I am against abortion if the health of the mother isn't in danger, but your not helping
Ironside 49 | 10,447  
7 May 2009 /  #265
he should have thought of this before he fukked her

so should she, but if final decision is her's then consequences should be her and her alone.
ShelleyS 14 | 2,893  
7 May 2009 /  #266
Two to Tango, anyone? LOL, you wonder why rates of abortion have risen when men have your attitude!
grethomory 1 | 154  
7 May 2009 /  #267
I've been trying to reply to this for five minutes but your answer just isn't very clear and there is alot of sidestepping in there. "If men could get pregnant" has nothing to do with the question I asked.

Yes it does...all through time...men have been telling a woman what to do with her own body, health, voting for years...etc. Even telling a woman how to dress or not to dress. This is another issue of control. That is part of the reason so many men are responding to this thread. For a woman to have her eyes open and think for herself...causes panic in the eyes of men.

What I am saying is that a woman has the right to make that decision. It's her decision. Not yours.

he should have thought of this before he fukked her

Thank you
lesser 4 | 1,311  
9 May 2009 /  #268
More men have an opinion about abortion than women and that's what I wonder about.

Would you blame a men for having an opinion? In the age of democracy this is already reason to be ashamed? As I have write before, this thread have much more comments from women than any other in this section of the forum. Your activity here confirm this observation.

So, if father doesn't want a child and woman go for it regardless then I think he should not pay any child support.

If he did not want a child initially, this is a moment when he need to proof that he is a man indeed. Irresponsible cowards don't deserve to be considered to be men. Such individuals should be rejected by society, such reaction would effectively reduce their number.

You may indeed have a point.

Take into consideration one thing, if you don't respect yourself you cannot count that anybody else will respect you. Don't be like Polish politicians!
Ironside 49 | 10,447  
9 May 2009 /  #269
you wonder why rates of abortion have risen when men have your attitude!

If he did not want a child initially, this is a moment when he need to proof that he is a man indeed. Irresponsible cowards don't deserve to be considered to be men. Such individuals should be rejected by society, such reaction would effectively reduce their number.

so should she, but if the final decision is her's then consequences should be her and her alone.

If the final decision is her's then it rises some doubts :
- If woman wants to give a birth to the child then father of the said baby should support her and her decision.
- If woman wants to have an abortion then father should also support her decision.
It seems to me that it the order of things there is somthing wrong with secondary role of the male partner in the desicion making, he is expected to go along with whatever female seems fit to be right thing to do!

What if father want to have a child and women don't?
We all know what will happen she'll do whatever she want if so is the case then in my humble opinion if situation is reversed then she can do it what she want but father should not have any obligation as he was against brith of the said baby.

I belive that in the stated above circumstances is more then fair and I don't understand your reservations.
lesser 4 | 1,311  
9 May 2009 /  #270
If the final decision is her's then it rises some doubts :

Murder is should forbidden by law, pure and simple.

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