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Western Europe and America vs Russia WWII - chances of Poland being saved


Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,591  
30 May 2009 /  #151
That is a cool thingy....will come in handy later I have the feeling....once the Chinese want to roam our airspace!
nunczka 8 | 458  
30 May 2009 /  #152
So what was the best tank in WW2? We can count the Sherman out.
The armor was not thick enough, and the 75MM gun could not penetrate the Tiger tanks.Later they were mounted with 90MM, a big improvement, but they were called RONSON lighters because they were fueled by gasoline and blew up when hit by an 88MM.

Was the T34 as good as the King Tiger? What did Kursk tell us?
Torq 32 | 2,999  
30 May 2009 /  #153
How about the Russian IS-2 and IS-3? They look impressive!




Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,591  
30 May 2009 /  #154
Was the T34 as good as the King Tiger? What did Kursk tell us?

Not all Tigers and not all T34's but the numbers speak a clear language:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kursk

German strenghth:

3,000 tanks
900,000 infantry
2,110 aircraft

German losses:

50,000 dead, wounded, or captured
248 tanks destroyed
200 aircraft downed

Russian strength:

3,600 tanks
20,000 guns
1,300,000 infantry and supporting troops
2,792 aircraft

Russian losses:

180,000 dead, wounded, or captured
1,600 tanks damaged or destroyed
1,000 aircraft damaged or downed

The Germans managed to inflict much more damage than they got.
Hitler ordered the end of the battle because of the allied invasion in Italy.

The victory had not been cheap however; the Red Army, although preventing the Germans from achieving the goals of Citadel, lost considerably more men and matériel than the Wehrmacht .

nunczka 8 | 458  
30 May 2009 /  #155
Combat history
The T-34 is often used as a symbol for Soviet resistance and German arrogance. As such, its actual performance and impact on the war is often overrated. Nevertheless, the appearance of the T34 definitely was an unpleasant surprise for the German commanders, as it could combat all 1942 German tanks effectively. It was faster, had better armament (50mm was the predominant calibre of German tanks guns) and better armour protection, due to the technical innovation of sloped armour.

However, direct tank to tank combat was a rather rare occurrence; the vast majority of losses suffered were from logistical and mechanical troubles (50% of Soviet tanks at the start of the German invasion), artillery and air strikes and (self-propelled) anti-tank guns. At the outset of the war, only about 10% of all Soviet tanks were T-34 variants, this number increased to 50-60% percent till mid-1943. By the time the T-34 had replaced older models and became available in greater numbers, new German tanks (including the improved German design based on the T-34, the Panzer-V 'Panther') outperformed it.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
30 May 2009 /  #156
... some German units were strong and proffesionaly trained... Most weren't ...

No, in 1939 virtually all German units were professionally trained, exceptionally well led and well equipped, in addition to that Germany perfected British theories and was able to use the weapons it had much more effectively.

Poland had less modern weapons, fewer good commanders, medium and low ranking officers and common soldiers were equal or superior to their German counterparts but spirit and skill is not enough when your enemy is of equal valor and has more and superior equipment and better leadership.

Poland proved that it could make diamonds where others saw shite with its 7TP, 10TP, UR AT gun, 37mm AT cannon, machineguns and so on but Polish army was still inferior on every field safe personnel and even there Polish high command was levels below their German counterparts.

Heh :):):)

Thats actually correct, Americans requested we dont use our most advanced radio devices.

Did you know that the famous AK-47 was german designed (Schmeisser):

Given Kalasznikovs aptitude i doubt Schmeisser had more to do it than rudimentary help, if anything its Americans who are bound to have helped (even though they get no mention) since AK-47 borrows heavily from M1-Garand.

Was the T34 as good as the King Tiger? What did Kursk tell us?

The Tiger was superior to T-34, at Kursk Germans lost most of their tanks to mines, artillery and their heaviest tanks either broke down or got rammed by T-34s.
Salomon 2 | 436  
30 May 2009 /  #157
That is a cool thingy....will come in handy later I have the feeling....once the Chinese want to roam our airspace!

Lets leave this big current geo political games ;)

Was the T34 as good as the King Tiger?

I just love such comparisions...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger_II

Designed 1943

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-34

Designed 1937-40

Lets compare Tiger to IS 2

pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/IS-2_(czołg_ciężki)

designed in 1943

As to German weapons:

88 mm gun ... my favourite German AT/AA gun
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,591  
30 May 2009 /  #158
88 mm gun ... my favourite German AT/AA gun

Mine too! :)
nunczka 8 | 458  
30 May 2009 /  #159
On December the 16 1944 in the Ardennes. The Americans came in contact with the King Tiger for the first time. Prior to this they were familiar with the Tiger and Panthers. At the Loshiem Gap, the Germans broke through and the American 57mm anti tank shells just bounced of the thick armor. But due to the heavy weight and narrow roads,and snow. They had trouble maneuvering. They used most of their fuel before they reached American fuel depots. And were picked off by American tank destroyers and Allied plane rockets. Most were abandoned for lack of fuel
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,591  
30 May 2009 /  #160
Given Kalasznikovs aptitude i doubt Schmeisser had more to do it than rudimentary help, if anything its Americans who are bound to have helped (even though they get no mention) since AK-47 borrows heavily from M1-Garand.

Well...he even admitted it himself....you are not doubting Kalashnikov himself, don't you! :)
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
30 May 2009 /  #161
No i'm just saying that calling AK a German design is rubbish, based on that you could call quite a few German designs "Polish" since Polish engineers helped in designing MP-4, Wiberlwind, PaK 43, these kinds of projects always have multiple brains working on them but most job is done by the project lead, also given that Russians had briliant designs by themselves i doubt Kalashnikov would need Shmeisser for anything major as you seem to imply.

King Tiger

Shite tank, it broke down half of the time and was so heavy it got stuck in every second pond, Germans forfeited one of the principles of tank design with this one - mobility, Tiger-1 was much much better.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,591  
30 May 2009 /  #162
i doubt Kalashnikov would need Shmeisser for anything major as you seem to imply.

Well...they needed them enough to kidnap him and let him work for them for years in the Ural...what do you think he did there all the time?

Then the similiarities to the first assault weapon, the Stug 44...
And why the hell should Kalashnikov admit now that he got "help"...nobody had forced him to. He would have surely said now if he was influenced by the US or someone else too.

He could have outlived his life unconcerned by rumours and similiarities...claiming all the prize for himself...if the "help" was so minimal. But he didn't!

The King Tiger is now seen as a prototype of the Panther...still in the "testing phase" if you so want..
At that time Germany had neither the time, nor the material to take her time for a correct development.

Sokrates...you just seem unable to be objective....sorry! :(
Salomon 2 | 436  
30 May 2009 /  #163
Mine too! :)

But due to the heavy weight and ...

That is why I don't like German wunderwaffes from last period of the war ... they looked good on pictures but they weren't practical.... and their cost was very high.

Unlike :



Most German Panthers durring battle of Kursk didn't fight because the earlies versions of this tanks had many defects and most of them was broken in way from railwaystation to the front line.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panther_tank

The Panther first saw action at Kursk on 5 July 1943. Early tanks were plagued with mechanical problems: the track and suspension often broke, and the engine was dangerously prone to overheating and bursting into flames. At Kursk, more Panthers were disabled by their own failings than by enemy action.

I wouldn't call them superiour to anny tank in 1943 ... when better versions were devolped ... others made progress with their weapons.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,591  
30 May 2009 /  #164
They were to that time often revolutionary designs...and as it is with new "revolutions" they take time to become practicable...time the Germans didn't had.

My favourite is the "Gotha"!

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horten_Ho_229

Today, 60 years later, it's called "stealth" bomber! :)

Horten Gotha, the first stealth air craft

...
When tested by Northrop-Grumman in early 2009 this application was found to have been successful, making the Ho-229 the first aircraft to successfully incorporate "Stealth Technology" in its design...

Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
30 May 2009 /  #165
Well...they needed them enough to kidnap him and let him work for them for years in the Ural...what do you think he did there all the time?

Everyone did it, including Americans but that still doesnt mean its a German design, in fact given superiority of many Russian designs its clear that he was not a neccesary requirement and his help was just this, help.

Then the similiarities to the first assault weapon, the Stug 44...

There's none, they look similar and thats about it, the internal mechanisms are influenced by M-1 both rifle and carbine, the influence may have come with the banana clip (most Russian mgs used a drum till then) and the overall shape but thats still not a German design.

And why the hell should Kalashnikov admit now that he got "help"...nobody had forced him to. He would have surely said now if he was influenced by the US or someone else too.

He did, he said there's M-1 in there and upon dissasembling an AK and M-1 there are huge similarities though one is a semi-automatic rifle/carbine and the other a fully automatic rifle, and he said that he got help because he got help thats all there is to it, do you think Leopard 2A4 was developed by Germans only? That Polish jaw dropping radiological equipment was developed by us only? It doesnt work like that for more than 70 years now.

The King Tiger is now seen as a prototype of the Panther...still in the "testing phase" if you so want..
At that time Germany had neither the time, nor the material to take her time for a correct development.

Panther was heavily based on T-34 (though not a direct copy) and was a basis for Standardpanzer (which never got developed) King Tiger was an independet project for a superheavy tank.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,591  
30 May 2009 /  #166
There's none, they look similar and thats about it

....oh puuleeeeeeze!
Of course the victorious allies couldn't get their hands on german engineers quick enough...they stole the brains and all blueprints they could get...why do you think that was so? Because they all had their own superiour, brilliant designs???

Get a grip man!

The only difference being that the Russians forced "their" Germans to Siberia and the Americans bribed "their" Germans with a good living...

...The range of Germany's technical achievement astounded Allied scientific intelligence experts accompanying the invading forces in 1945.

Supersonic rockets, nerve gas, jet aircraft, guided missiles, stealth technology and hardened armour were just some of the groundbreaking technologies developed in Nazi laboratories, workshops and factories, even as Germany was losing the war....

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/4443934.stm
ZIMMY 6 | 1,601  
30 May 2009 /  #167
yes, I think Germans follows their laws generally (broad generalization of course).

It has been general knowledge whether true or false that Germans were an 'obedient' people, that is, they (literally) marched to orders. Not infrequently, when someone did what he or she was told it was said ''just like a German". Feel free to 'combat' this prevalent premise.
nunczka 8 | 458  
30 May 2009 /  #168
I am no fan of Germany. But one has to give credit where due. They devoloped the V1 and V2 rockets. The developed the Me262 Jet fighter. First used to try to destroy the Ludendorff RR Bridge at Remagan American P51 Mustangs and P38 lightnings could not catch them. Had they been introduced sooner, It might have influnced the outcome of the war.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
30 May 2009 /  #169
Of course the victorious allies couldn't get their hands on german engineers quick enough...they stole the brains and all blueprints they could get...why do you think that was so?

And here i was thinking only us Poles get a random Kaczyński urge :)) Germans were leading in rocketry and among the leaders in jet designs, but the specific case of AK-47 is technically based on M-1 and for that alone it cannot be a "German design".

Also this was not because German scientists were briliant but because funds allocation, Germany was not democratic, if Hitler said project X gets Y money it did, thats why your scientists went so far in fields of avionics and allies grabbed men and plans because it was cheaper to aquire something that Fuhrer already paid for :) As for Ak-47?

A Russian design technically based on American design built with German assistance, that would be correct.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,591  
30 May 2009 /  #170
It has been general knowledge whether true or false that Germans were an 'obedient' people, that is, they (literally) marched to orders. Not infrequently, when someone did what he or she was told it was said ''just like a German". Feel free to 'combat' this prevalent premise.

I told you already what I think of that.
The german military didn't work on "orders", the officers and soldiers were trained to think for themselves and to act independently if the need be.

German citizes prefer to follow the laws of the society maybe better than other people (generalization).

Germans were leading in rocketry and among the leaders in jet designs, but the specific case of AK-47 is technically based on M-1 and for that alone it cannot be a "German design".

Maybe I missed something here...could be!
Could you please show me the link where Kalashnikov admits he was inspired by the M1 the same way he admitted he got "help" by Hugo Schmeisser?

Maybe I overlooked something...

And here i was thinking only us Poles get a random Kaczyński urge :))

That was mean!
ZIMMY 6 | 1,601  
30 May 2009 /  #171
88 mm gun ... my favourite German AT/AA gun

Back in '68 and '69, I was a (very young 22 yrs. old) supervisor and was in charge of an assembly line that made 105 mm howitzers. We shipped them directly to Vietnam.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,591  
30 May 2009 /  #172
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/4443934.stm

...Added to this, the large number of still-secret Paperclip documents has led many people, including Nick Cook, Aerospace Consultant at Jane's Defence Weekly, to speculate that the US may have developed even more advanced Nazi technology, including anti-gravity devices, a potential source of vast amounts of free energy.

Cook says that such technology "could be so destructive that it would endanger world peace and the US decided to keep it secret for a long time".

Who knows what else they did steal out of Germany and how much of it is still hidden from the public and top secret....
And all this already designed and developed some 65 years back...that is just awe inspiring!
Salomon 2 | 436  
30 May 2009 /  #173
Today, 60 years later, it's called "stealth" bomber! :)

Interesting

And why the hell should Kalashnikov admit now that he got "help"...nobody had forced him to. He would have surely said now if he was influenced by the US or someone else too.

Story of Schmesser seems to be similar to Ciołkowski father who was deported to Russia for particpating in anti-Russian Polish up-rises.

As to en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konstantin_Tsiolkovsky

Konstantin Eduardovich Tsiolkovsky (Russian: Константи́н Эдуа́рдович Циолко́вский; Polish: Konstanty Ciołkowski) (September 17 [O.S. September 5] 1857-September 19, 1935) was an Imperial Russian and Soviet rocket scientist and pioneer of the astronautic theory.He is considered by many to be the father of theoretical astronautics. His works later inspired leading Soviet rocket engineers such as Sergey Korolyov and Valentin Glushko and contributed to the early success of the Soviet space program.

Tsiolkovsky theorized many aspects of space travel and rocket propulsion. He is considered the father of human spaceflight and the first man to conceive the space elevator, becoming inspired in 1895 by the newly-constructed Eiffel Tower in Paris.

His father was a Polish patriot deported to Russia as a result of his revolutionary political activities

Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,591  
30 May 2009 /  #174
I know of Ziolkowski...:)

Tsiolkovsky theorized many aspects of space travel and rocket propulsion. He is considered the father of human spaceflight and the first man to conceive the space elevator, becoming inspired in 1895 by the newly-constructed Eiffel Tower in Paris.

I told ya...we should just merge and join forces!!!
:)
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
30 May 2009 /  #175
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_Garand#Descendants

Like i said its obvious there was a German influence because AK-47 uses a banana clip and is shaped differently but thats that so its deffinitely not a German project.

including anti-gravity devices, a potential source of vast amounts of free energy.

Erm call me esoteric but Gerries started developing those after trips to Tybet, India and other weird places, who knows what did they find, anyway i dont undermine awesomeness of the Nazi science but AK-47 has as much to do with German projects as Americans with geographical awareness of anything over 100 miles from where they live.
ZIMMY 6 | 1,601  
30 May 2009 /  #176
German citizes prefer to follow the laws of the society....

I just wanted to 'tweek' you a little bit with the "obedience" thing. I'll say something nice now.... I like bratwurst.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,591  
30 May 2009 /  #177
but AK-47 has as much to do with German projects as Americans with geographical awareness of anything over 100 miles from where they live.

*throws hands up enervated*

I give up! A beer? I'm paying...

I'll say something nice now.... I like bratwurst.

To have one right now to my beer would be even more nice...:)
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
30 May 2009 /  #178
I give up! A beer? I'm paying...

Always! :)

I just wanted to 'tweek' you a little bit with the "obedience" thing. I'll say something nice now....

You're Solomons brother arent you? I've got a feeling he's bringing in family recently.
ZIMMY 6 | 1,601  
30 May 2009 /  #179
You're Solomons brother arent you?

No and sometimes we're Poles apart.
Salomon 2 | 436  
30 May 2009 /  #180
I told ya...we should just merge and join forces!!!:)

esf.org

COST (European Cooperation in Science and Technology) is one of the longest-running European instruments supporting co-operation among scientists and researchers across Europe.
The ESF is the legal entity which provides and manages the scientific, administrative and technical secretariat for COST.


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