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Western Europe and America vs Russia WWII - chances of Poland being saved


Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,591  
26 May 2009 /  #61
Bratwurs your theory about WWII is false ... Hitler planed war against half of Europe (Poland, France ... )

Well, but he still didn't...he is still peacy...he will become the victim of polish aggression!
The facts won't change!

Argument like "we haven't know his plans" is false

Well..there was the "Morgenthau plan" too...
Doesn't count for very much today either!
Torq 32 | 2,999  
26 May 2009 /  #62
Thanks for the answer, BB. I hope you visit Silesia every now and again
and don't bear any kind of historical grudge against Poland for regaining it ;)

Without me nobody would help you along...:)

That's true - I don't think there are too many Germans on this board
(I don't know why - we don't bite lol).
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,591  
26 May 2009 /  #63
That's true - I don't think there are too many Germans on this board
(I don't know why - we don't bite lol).

He would need a helmet!
Harry  
26 May 2009 /  #64
Harry:
Do try reading the thread. We are trying to talk about Poles fighting the Russians and doing so alongside Germans, we are not talking about Poles fighting with the Germans.
You are trying to do your everyday job. You use dariusz for this purpose ... you can't quote sources ... that is your problem.

As a matter of interest I can and have quoted sources.

History suggests that they would.

As for what is being discussed:

Question....WOULD had Poles fighted along german troops against the Soviets if the pushes came to shove?

Salomon 2 | 436  
26 May 2009 /  #65
Well, but he still didn't...he is still peacy...he will become the victim of polish aggression!The facts won't change!

Leader who has written the book... where he plans extermination ... and war against France ... Poland ... and many other countries...

Advertising for Mein Kampf (mid 1930s)

comes to power ... breaks points from Versaliese Treaty ...

The fact that it was bestseler ... means that Germans knew what they were voting for...
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,591  
26 May 2009 /  #66
A book is rarely seen as a sufficient reason to invade your neighbour Luki...:)
Salomon 2 | 436  
26 May 2009 /  #67
If we look on what Germans have done durring WWII ... Poland would be right.

What is more from Apr 2, 07 you moan here about Versaliese Treaty and we can clearly see that you forget about one fact. GERMANS KNEW HITLERS PLANS. It is not like "we just wanted part of Czech rep... and Poland, nobody knew about other Hitlers plans"

It is lie.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,591  
26 May 2009 /  #68
If we look on what Germans have done durring WWII ... Poland would be right.

Ja...but your impossible problem you face is nobody would know that at the time of your invasion...YOU would be the baddie, not Hitler!

You would make him a hero!!!

GERMANS KNEW HITLERS PLANS.

Well, the "Morgenthau"-plan was published widely too.
Didn't count for much later...
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
26 May 2009 /  #69
Well, the "Morgenthau"-plan was published widely too.

However Morgenthau plan was far more justified, you cant deny Germany has been a problem for Europe for the last 100 years, in fact you're still a sticky business.

Morgenthaus plan would permanently eliminate Germany as a political or military presence without resorting to genocide, while i'm all for diplomatic solutions i believe that Europe without Germany would be much more stable than Europe with Germany.

What was left of your economy could have been handed over to neighbouring states and you'd be growing crops and living out your lives in peace whether you liked it or not, today we might get an European leader like France or UK with much more responsible approach, there would be no rift between East and West, much greater solidarity in regards to policies towards Russia and of course all the capital that US poured into such an unstable state as yours could be use in central and eastern Europe.

Morgenthaus plan had so many advantages its a shame it never happened.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,591  
26 May 2009 /  #70
Morgenthaus plan had so many advantages its a shame it never happened.

Well..another dream bubble of Poles burst again...so sorry! :(

You should really become more pragmatic...
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
26 May 2009 /  #71
Well..another dream bubble of Poles burst again...so sorry! :(

I've no other dream than that we could just live in peace, however i do not believe Germany is capable of long term peacefull existence, as such deconstruction of your state was a logical move, sadly constrained by realities of the time it didnt happen.

You should really become more pragmatic...

BB if we were pragmatic you'd be conquered by Turkey or not here at all since Teutonic Order would have gotten wiped out to a man, Germany exists because Poland failed to be pragmatic.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,591  
26 May 2009 /  #72
I've no other dream than that we could just live in peace,

That is nice! :)

BB if we were pragmatic you'd be conquered by Turkey or not here at all since Teutonic Order would have gotten wiped out to a man, Germany exists because Poland failed to be pragmatic

Another dream bubble by Poles...
You know what being pragmatic means, don't you?

pragmatic

Adjective

1. concerned with practical consequences rather than theory

You should try it sometimes...:)
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
26 May 2009 /  #73
You know what being pragmatic means, don't you?

Of course, undertaking realistic tasks with achievable goals, in this case it was Teutonic Knights down to a man so Prussia would never happen and letting Turks roll through Germany to have a more peacefull less hostile neighbour.

Of course our ancestors need to be forgiven they did not have the luxury of hindsight.

You should try it sometimes...:)

At multiple times in history Poland was poised to annihilate what would later become Prussia through action or inaction, practical consequences would lead to unification under much more peacefull Austria or conquest by Turkey which had significant respect for Poland, one way or the other both world wars would never happen and a significant threat to European peace and stability would never be there.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,591  
26 May 2009 /  #74
Of course our ancestors need to be forgiven they did not have the luxury of hindsight.

I forgive them! :)

At multiple times in history Poland was poised to annihilate what would later become Prussia

But it hadn't...so there:)
Now we have 2009 and next year our football team is going to beat your football team again...

THAT is pragmatism! :)
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
26 May 2009 /  #75
But it hadn't...so there:)

And you still sing the old song, i've changed my tone specifically after CDU issued statements about "more German language, international condemnation of expelees" i dont mind ambition, the problem with Prussia's twisted child is that you guys dont know when to stop untill you slam into a brick wall so i dont enjoy these kinds of statements.

If anyone but Germany made them that'd be just rubbish talk but with you they're historically a vent for real ambitions that start in Berlin and end in Dresden dragging everyone around down along the way.

Now we have 2009 and next year our football team is going to beat your football team again...

Sadly my suggestions about executing our players and their families fell on deaf ears.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,591  
26 May 2009 /  #76
i've changed my tone specifically after CDU issued statements about "more German language, international condemnation of expelees"

You mention it again and I still wonder...what do you mean exactly?

Sadly my suggestions about executing our players and their families fell on deaf ears.

You should have warned them beforehand..they would had played better...surely..
Torq 32 | 2,999  
26 May 2009 /  #77
Now we have 2009 and next year our football team is going to beat your football team again...

Not this time! This time we're going to win! 3:0! And the white and red flags
will be flying high telling the world of our triumph. Our team is better, only we
were unlucky all this time!

*no, it's not denial - I'm just very selective about the reality I accept :)*
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,591  
26 May 2009 /  #78
*no, it's not denial - I'm just very selective about the reality I accept :)*

Aren't we all....
z_darius 14 | 3,968  
26 May 2009 /  #79
History suggests that they would.

Depends which bits of history you pick:

According to reports sent to Government In Exile in London, Gestapo officials in several Polish cities were trying to talk about creating a common, anti-Communist front with the Poles, a thing that had been unheard of before. Also, the Nazis tried again to talk Wincenty Witos into issuing an appeal, but he refused.

On November 4, 1944 Headquarters of the Central Group of German Army (Heeresgruppe Mitte) announced basic principles. Germans were hoping that some 12,000 Poles would volunteer. They were promised same treatment as German soldiers, including salaries, death insurance and health service.

In late fall of 1944, in several Polish towns offices for volunteers were created, some of them decorated with Polish flags. However, only 471 people signed up, in spite of German fabrications, stating that the Home Army announced its alliance with the Nazis.


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poles_in_the_Wehrmacht#Creation_of_Polish_Unit

On the other hand, Soviet creations such as Armia Ludowa (up to 30,000 members) or Ludowe Wojsko Polskie (up to 200,000) were certainly not fighting against the Soviets.

Now, in 1945, how would that co-operation with Germans look?
What about the Eastern borders? Would Western Ukraine be Polish or not? Would Germans in what is now Western Poland be ordered to move West?

Poles had already been betrayed by the US and UK by then. What kind of assurances would Poles have that co-operation with Germans would give them the outcome they hoped for?
scrappleton - | 830  
26 May 2009 /  #80
Morgenthaus plan had so many advantages its a shame it never happened.

It came extremely close but Churchhill made a huge fuss about it so Roosevelt and Stalin finally dropped the whole thing.
Ironside 49 | 10,327  
26 May 2009 /  #81
from the beginning Britain was supporting Prussia and then Germany
southern 75 | 7,096  
26 May 2009 /  #82
Western Europe and America vs Russia WWII

Russia would win for sure.Russia had 250 divisions in Europe while Angloamericans had about 120.And SU had much more weapons on european ground,much better tanks,heavy artillery and so on.

Zukov actually if I remember proposed an artillery barrage ''by mistake'' on US forces to give them a first flavour but Stalin denied.

With soviet troops in Vienna and 30 km from Hannover allied forces had really a lot to risk.
Harry  
27 May 2009 /  #83
Depends which bits of history you pick:

Certainly does. From your own link “First ideas of creation of Polish units cooperating with the Wehrmacht appeared in the fall of 1939, after Polish September Campaign. Main supporter of this concept, right-wing politician Wladyslaw Studnicki, stated that in late fall of that year, various Polish activists would came to see him, telling that somebody should send a delegation to Berlin, whose purpose would be to save anything that could be saved. Studnicki and his cronies were counting on the inevitable Nazi - Soviet conflict, so as early as on 20 November 1939, he presented to the Germans “An appeal to re-establish the Polish Army”.” So within six weeks of the last Polish army units surrendering the Nazis were already being asked to form a Polish army to assist them in the fight against the soviets.

And then there is https://books.google.com/books?ie=UTF-8&vid=ISBN0786403713&id=A4FlatJCro4C&pg=PA88&lpg=PA88&dq=holocaust+in+Poland&vq=wilno&sig=8H45HLJILfGXRoOg3WdVDDjJ9Q4&hl=en#PPA88,M1 which tells of how AK units in Nowogrodek and in Wilno.

But no doubt you can assure us that the people who did this were not real Poles.
1jola 14 | 1,879  
28 May 2009 /  #84
Question....WOULD had Poles fighted along german troops against the Soviets if the pushes came to shove?

This is such a loaded question. Had the Germans not committed 760 war crimes in the September campaign against the Poles and Jews, had they not had the insane idea that they were the masters of Europe and deserved to anihilate and/or enslave the people east of them to make room for the master race, had they not made these kind of alliances: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gestapo-NKVD_Conferences

cooperation would have been possible. After all, Poland had experience in fighting the Soviets; the Germans had not and had sent their boys to fight in the cold dressed in shorts.

The list of had they not is so long that its mind bogling, but of course we get Harry the Shill jumping in to point out small AK or NSZ unit who accepted arms from Germans to fight the Soviet filth. Harry is wise to quote Piotrowski's book, it's chapter on Polish collaboration should be compared with the preseeding chapter on Jewish collaboration. It is a good read.

Brat Boy, Here is a good book you might want read that I think you will enjoy. Written by a LSSAH soldier, no propaganda, just first hand account: Verlorene Ehre, Verratene Treue by Herbert Meager: /Verlorene-Ehre-Verratene-Zeitzeugenbericht-Soldaten/dp/
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,591  
28 May 2009 /  #85
This is such a loaded question. Had the Germans not

Yes, but this wasn't the question!
If the '45 Poles would had been offered by the western allies an army comprised of Americans etc AND mainly Germans to fight the Soviet occupation - would they had taken the offer or rather gave in to the red army?

Especially with the WWII background...
1jola 14 | 1,879  
28 May 2009 /  #86
Yes, with what we know now, I think that would have been a good choice. Patton had the right idea and it was a shame politicians didn't allow the generals to do their job. From my family's experience, and they were just on the inside of the eastern General Guberne border, the German occupation was mild compared to what had happened after the lice ridden filth rolled in from the east.
OP Wroclaw Boy  
28 May 2009 /  #87
the lice ridden filth rolled in from the east.

Indeed, many Poles of the older generation generally hate the Russians more than the Germans.
Torq 32 | 2,999  
28 May 2009 /  #88
German occupation was mild compared to what had happened after the lice ridden filth rolled in from the east.

During the 6 years of German occupation Poland lost 12 million citizens
(35 million in 1939, 23 million in 1945). During the 45 years of Soviet
occupation Poland's population grew from 23 to 39 million.

Yes, the German occupation was mild indeed compared to Soviet.

many Poles of the older generation generally hate the Russians more than the Germans.

I'm not denying that there are some people like that, but I'm a Pole, lived in Poland for 27
years (out of my 30), have quite a big family and I've NEVER met a single person who would
say that he/she hates Russians more than Germans.
OP Wroclaw Boy  
28 May 2009 /  #89
During the 6 years of German occupation Poland lost 12 million citizens
(35 million in 1939, 23 million in 1945). During the 45 years of Soviet
occupation Poland's population grew from 23 to 39 million.

Im assuming by lost youre including the 6,000,000 that left on their own accord. With regard to deaths i make it 5,600,000 with 3,000,000 being jews.

have quite a big family and I've NEVER met a single person who would
say that he/she hates Russians more than Germans.

You know one now, Jola just above!!
1jola 14 | 1,879  
28 May 2009 /  #90
Many of their soldiers had never seen door handles before, not to mention soap.

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