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Western Europe and America vs Russia WWII - chances of Poland being saved


Torq 32 | 2,999  
28 May 2009 /  #91
Im assuming by lost youre including the 6,000,000 that left on their own accord. With regard to deaths i make it 5,600,000 with 3,000,000 being jews.

Of course. Those who ran away or left were no longer in Poland, so on overall
we lost 12 million citizens. Also, I wouldn't differentiate between the murdered
Poles and Jews because they were all Polish citizens that we lost.
OP Wroclaw Boy  
28 May 2009 /  #92
Ever wonder what Poland may be like today if those Jews were left to flourish??

I've NEVER met a single person who would
say that he/she hates Russians more than Germans.

The stories that ive heard from my wifes family especially her grandmother who was sent to Siberia for 10 years are absolutely shocking. Have you NEVER known any Poles who's grandparents lost everything as a result of Russian occupation and then communism?

6 years of occupation compared to 45 years of communism occupation. Humm i know which one id prefer.

Also you say German occupation lets not forget the Russians invaded the other half.
Torq 32 | 2,999  
28 May 2009 /  #93
Ever wonder what Poland may be like today if those Jews were left to flourish??

You mean, if people like Janusz Korczak for example and thousands of other
great scientists, economists, doctors and lawyers (plus millions of honest,
law-abiding citizens) were never murdered and kept living in Poland today?
I believe that in such case Poland would be a stronger and richer country.

Have you NEVER known any Poles who's grandparents lost everything as a result of Russian occupation and then communism?

I didn't say that. I knew people who came back from Siberian exile and who lost
all their wealth and possesions, but even those people didn't say that they hate
Russians more than Germans and didn't try to compare the horrors of nazi occupation
to the Soviet one.
OP Wroclaw Boy  
28 May 2009 /  #94
I knew people who came back from Siberian exile and who lost
all their wealth and possesions

Personally if i lost my entire lifes work of possesions, wealth and property as a result of Russian occupation id be swinging towards the Russians.

Im afraid you dont know the Jewish culture to well my friend. You may well have benefitted in certain areas of national interest but in the long run, i fear the average Pole would be a minority in their own country.
Torq 32 | 2,999  
28 May 2009 /  #95
Personally if i lost my entires lifes work of possesions, wealth and property as a result of Russian occupation id be swinging towards the Russians more.

Yes, you would be able to feel anger and resentment simply because you would
be alive and as a living person would have the ability to feel anything.

Under nazi occupation your chances of staying alive would be significantly lower.

Im afraid you dont know the Jewish culture to well my friend.

You're right, I don't. What is it in the Jewish culture that wouldn't
be beneficial for Poland if Jews were still living here?

the average Pole would be a minority in their own country

How come? If it wasn't for the war we'd probably have about 50 million
Poles and about 7-8 million Jews. How would that make us a minority?
OP Wroclaw Boy  
28 May 2009 /  #96
Yes, you would be able to rightfuly feel anger and resentment simply because
you would be alive and as a living person would have the ability to feel anything.

We would have to analyse the statistics, obviously if i or a member of my family had died as a result of Nazi occupation then we would have a clear winner from a personal point of view. From what i know and have read the Russians were more barabric in their crusade than the Germans, and as result many Poles dislike the Russians more.

Perhaps i will start a thread where Poles only can vote, that should clear the matter up.

No, I don't. What is it in the Jewish culture that wouldn't be
beneficial for Poland if Jews were still living here?

I would rather not go into specific detail on my views of the Jewish nation here.

How come? If it wasn't for the war we'd probably have about 50 million
Poles and about 7-8 million Jews. How would that make us a minority.

When i mentioned minority i did not mean in the numeric sense, in any case well never know.
Torq 32 | 2,999  
28 May 2009 /  #97
Perhaps i will start a thread where Poles only can vote, that should clear the matter up.

Good idea!
OP Wroclaw Boy  
28 May 2009 /  #98
I have requested admin to start a poll.
1jola 14 | 1,879  
28 May 2009 /  #99
A typical arrest by the Germans looked like this. A early morning raid. Questions: Antoni? No, Jan. Antoni? No, Józef. Ok, sleep. In a Soviet raid the whole family would be packed up and the little details of who is who would be sorted out in a Siberian camp later.
Salomon 2 | 436  
28 May 2009 /  #100
Without anny doubts Germans durring WWII were much more worst. Communist aimed only on possibly anti-communistic element (as they did in all communistic countires including Russia) they had no plan to exterminate whole Polish nation as Germans did.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalplan_Ost

In 1941 it was decided to destroy the Polish nation completely and the German leadership decided that in 10 to 20 years the Polish state under German occupation was to be fully cleared of any ethnic Poles

As to Russians I'd say that Russians were very sophisticated in treatment of Germans in comparision to German behaviour on east.
1jola 14 | 1,879  
28 May 2009 /  #101
As to Russians I'd say that Russians were very sophisticated in treatment of German in comparision to German behaviour on east.

Not sure what you consider sophisticated, but out of 91,000 German soldiers taken prisoner at the battle of Stalingrad, only 5,000 returned home.

Communist aimed only on possibly anti-communistic element

This "only" comprised a rather large group in a given population.
Salomon 2 | 436  
28 May 2009 /  #102
Not sure what you consider sophisticated, but out of 91,000 German soldiers taken prisoner at the battle of Stalingrad, only 5,000 returned home.

Red Army journal Krasnaya Gazeta:

Without mercy, without sparing, we will kill our enemies in scores of hundreds. Let them be thousands, let them drown themselves in their own blood. For the blood of Lenin and Uritsky ... let there be floods of blood of the bourgeoisie - more blood, as much as possible...

Soviet author Ilya Ehrenburg wrote on January 31, 1945:

The Germans have been punished in Oppeln, in Königsberg, and in Breslau. They have been punished, but yet not enough! Some have been punished, but not yet all of them.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,591  
28 May 2009 /  #103
Stalin killed more of his own than the Nazis did achieve...and they tried hard!

The Germans have been punished in Oppeln, in Königsberg, and in Breslau. They have been punished, but yet not enough! Some have been punished, but not yet all of them.

Punished for what? Invading Poland???

Who punished the Reds for invading Poland?
Salomon 2 | 436  
28 May 2009 /  #104
Punished for what? Invading Poland???

Soviets lost many of their people as well ... I'd rather think that they were punishing Germans for crimes commited in Soviet Union.

Who punished the Reds for invading Poland?

Regan.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,591  
28 May 2009 /  #105
I'd rather think that they were punishing Germans for crimes commited in Soviet Union.

Then what were they Poles punishing for?

Regan.

Whoa...he took his time, didn't he....:)

Reagan...wasn't it this president holding hands with Kohl at the SS cemetery in Bitburg?
Cool man!
Pinching Pete - | 558  
28 May 2009 /  #106
Reagan...wasn't it this president holding hands with Kohl at the SS cemetery in Bitburg

What do you expect? He had Alzheimers.
1jola 14 | 1,879  
28 May 2009 /  #107
Regan. Hmm. Wasn't he also making political decisions based on his wife's astrologer's hunches.
Nathan 18 | 1,363  
28 May 2009 /  #108
As to Russians I'd say that Russians were very sophisticated in treatment of Germans in comparision to German behaviour on east.

Oh ye?! In Ukraine POWs - prisoners of war - who were encircled by Germans were dearmed and offered as an exchange for german POWs. Actually Germany gave back more than SU had. All the soldiers who were rescued this way where shot and thrown into river Dnieper so tanks could pass it since all the bridges were destroyed. And trust me - Dnieper is deep. So imagine how many soldiers were killed by "very sophisticated treatment" of Russians (they killed own soldiers!) so the artillery could pass over corpses the river. They are f*cking inhumane bastards.
Sasha 2 | 1,083  
28 May 2009 /  #109
They are f*cking inhumane bastards.

Hmmm... what else? :) How can you live with that in your head? It must be hard...
I worry about your mental health... as you seem to be obsessed with Russians so much that you mention them at every turn.
Don't you notice that every your next post as like as two peas in pod in comparison to the previous one?
Nathan 18 | 1,363  
28 May 2009 /  #110
Don't you notice that every your next post as like as two peas in pod in comparison to the previous one?

It takes many facts to bring understanding of danger that country presents for stability in the world. I never mentioned the fact about drown and shot soldiers who covered up the river for Soviet tanks. It is just a fact. I don't hate Russians, I want them to be dealing with their own issues and stop pretending innocence with "very sophisticated treatment" of POWs ;l
Mr Grunwald 20 | 1,554  
29 May 2009 /  #111
My family is one of those prussian Silesians which got expelled.
I remember stumbling onto this board during a Danzig discussion....:)

Expelled when?
By whom? If it was after 1945, then PRL is correct answer not Poland
southern 75 | 7,096  
29 May 2009 /  #112
Patton had the right idea

Paton's idea was an alliance with Nazi Germany against Soviet Union.This was a realistic plan.Western forces alone would have been defeated.
And the nuclear program of USA was known to Stalin to last detail due to soviet spies.US had only 3 atomic bombs till the end of 1945(two of them were thrown to Japan) and Stalin was aware of that.Nuclear bomb could play no role(Mc Arthur wanted to use it in the front to facilitate advance of troops not knowing the consequences the bomb would have on his soldiers).
Babinich 1 | 455  
29 May 2009 /  #113
Western forces alone would have been defeated.

Based on what evidence?

And the nuclear program of USA was known to Stalin to last detail due to soviet spies.US had only 3 atomic bombs till the end of 1945

So there would be a race to create more A-Bombs? What was the first Soviet test? The summer of 1949.

Are you saying the Allies could not produce additional atomic weaponry, and deliver it, by the summer of 1949?
OP Wroclaw Boy  
29 May 2009 /  #114
I was reading Antony Beevor's 'Stalingrad' recently. I liked the idea regarding the Russian kamikaze dogs, they trained them to look for food under tanks. On the battle field they'd send them into the German lines with long sticks on their backs as soon as the stick bent under a tanks belly it exploded.
markcooper 4 | 80  
29 May 2009 /  #115
Thats a great book, could not put it down. " Berlin The Downfall" is the follow on. Equally as good I reckon.

What's interesting is....... We had some russian friends / aquaintance's come to visit a few months ago. They saw Stalingrad on the bookshelf. Flicked through it for no more than ten seconds and declared " utter rubbish, western propaganda". I explained that in the first few pages it explains that the book took ten or so years in the making. The author had travelled through Russia to collect and collate the context and most of it came from russian sources / survivors etc. Also the Beevor was an ex Army captain and a well respected historian. This antagonised them even more. It transpired that thier view being......... a factually correct history book dipicting russias involvment in WW2 could only be written by a russian. Interesting.............as in how they think / thier mindset. The guy a lawyer and the girl a teacher by the way.
1jola 14 | 1,879  
29 May 2009 /  #116
Also the Beevor was an ex Army captain and a well respected historian. This antagonised them even more.

I can see how a book written by a historian would antagonize some Russians. Should they ever get over their brainwashed views, do suggest Astolphe de Custine's Letters from Russia. Written in 1839, it is probably the best yet insight into the Russian mindset. Strongly recommended by...1jola.

weekinreview/word-for-word-marquis-de-custine-long-ago-look-russia-so-what-else-new
/Letters-Russia-Review-Books-Classics/
markcooper 4 | 80  
29 May 2009 /  #117
markcooper:
Also the Beevor was an ex Army captain and a well respected historian. This antagonised them even more.
I can see how a book written by a historian would antagonize some Russians. Should they ever get over their brainwashed views, do suggest Astolphe de Custine's Letters from Russia. Written in 1839, it is probably the best yet insight into the Russian mindset. Strongly recommended by...1jola.

Shall take a read of that. Whats interesting is these folk have been in the UK for over 8 years. Academically at least they come accross as quite bright.
1jola 14 | 1,879  
29 May 2009 /  #118
I have no doubt they are bright. I think it is a defensive mechanism. Case in point, I recently asked the only living elderly member of my family about family history. You know, the typical tell me a family story about the exile in Siberia thing. It started out interesting as I expected, but when she got to the murder part, I suddenly lost interest :) We want to know good things about our family, country, race, religion, etc.

Anyway, de Custine's book is excellent, especially in understanding how Communism had such fertile ground to take shape in Russia. He originally went there to observe the monarchial system and in 1830 Alexis de Tocqueville went US and wrote Democracy in America. After the French Revolution these thinkers were struggling with the question which system would suit France best.
Harry  
29 May 2009 /  #119
I have no doubt they are bright. I think it is a defensive mechanism.

Precisely. It's like trying to talk to the average Pole about Polish collaboration with the nazis or Polish Jewish relations.
markcooper 4 | 80  
29 May 2009 /  #120
I have no doubt they are bright.

Shall give it a go...................denial seems to be a national trait.

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