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Western Europe and America vs Russia WWII - chances of Poland being saved


Harry  
26 May 2009 /  #31
I don't think those would be willing to fight with the Germans.

History shows that what you think is not what reality was. Both the AK (or at least units who were given the chance to) and the NSZ were willing to fight against the same enemy as the Germans fought against.
Salomon 2 | 436  
26 May 2009 /  #32
All I know is that during WW1 Germans complained how Poles did not want to fight for Germany.

In WWI Poles were allied with Austrains ... it was the plan

"At a meeting in Paris in 1914, Piłsudski presciently declared that in the impending war, for Poland to regain independence, Russia must be beaten by the Central Powers (the Austro-Hungarian and German Empires), and the latter powers must in their turn be beaten by France, Britain and the United States."

After Russian defeat ... most troops chnaged side on French one ... or rejected to continue fight. Nothing to be ashamed about... Poles predicted WWI result in 1914 and it was beautiful succesful real politics. Poles should always fight for their interest.

He does not mention Poles as the 4th largest military force in Europe fighting against Germans.

Yes in WWII - Poles were 4th the biggest anti-German force. NSZ was one of them ...

In my opinion when we look on final results of WWII - invason on Germany in 1936 with France or alliance with Soviets in 1939 was the best option. Or fight on German side (only in case of their defeat - occupation would be much softer in this case) Soviets were treating Poland in the same way as they treaten German ally Hungary.

Both the AK (or at least units who were given the chance to) and the NSZ were willing to fight against the same enemy

Which invaded Poland form the east in 1939 ... :) = Soviets
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,590  
26 May 2009 /  #33
In my opinion when we look on final results of WWII - invason on Germany in 1936 with France or alliance with Soviets in 1939 was the best option.

Thank you Luki!
That way you would make Germany and Hitler the righteous martyr in all history books!
Everything what would follow from there, uprisings, guerilla wars, devastation of Europe would be now blamed on France, Poland and or Russia, thanks! :)

PS: I told you before, try to think things through BEFORE you post another wild theory...tell me exactly how a hostile invasion would have ended german grievances, bitterness and wish for revenge?

The time and kind of war would be changed/delayed, the conflict still needed to be fighted out.

How do you think a peasant country of 30 million could had held on the most sophisticated country of 80 million!
Salomon 2 | 436  
26 May 2009 /  #34
I am looking on it from todays perspective and results of WWII

How do you think a peasant country of 30 million could had held on the most sophisticated country of 80 million!

Poland had better tanks than German in 1939 ... and aircraft ... Germans had numerous advantage. :) Don't forget about French ...
z_darius 14 | 3,968  
26 May 2009 /  #35
History shows that what you think is not what reality was.

History shows that, except for a very, very small group of nationalists, Poles did not fight with the Germans. The 3.7 million of ethnic Poles who perished during WW2 from German weapons certainly didn't.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,590  
26 May 2009 /  #36
Poland had better tanks than German in 1939 ... and aircraft ... Germans had numerous advantage. :) Don't forget about French ...

It's not the war I disagree with...but the impossibility to clear things with that in the long run because ALL the reason for future war and conflict are still there...if possible the support for an underground "resistance"-Hitler would grow even more. You would make him a folk hero! Even big parts of the european public would now see him as the victim, not the aggressor...sympathy for the german cause would rise!

Okay...tell me...polish troops have successfully conquered Berlin (in one week only of course heh:) )...what now???
Harry  
26 May 2009 /  #37
History shows that, except for a very, very small group of nationalists, Poles did not fight with the Germans.

Quite right. However, the point we are all discussing is whether Poles would have fought in 1945 against the same Soviets the nazis were fighting against. The answer is that some Poles had already done so and that more Poles would have done so after seeing how the Soviets treated Poles in general and the AK in particular.

Interesting to see that you refer to the AK as a very, very small group of nationalists.
Salomon 2 | 436  
26 May 2009 /  #38
Okay...tell me...polish troops have successfully conquered Berlin

Germany broken some points from Treaty of Versalies ... interposeing them would be the best option.

If we look on what Germans have later done in Europe ... it would be the best option.
z_darius 14 | 3,968  
26 May 2009 /  #39
Quite right. However, the point we are all discussing is whether Poles would have fought in 1945 against the same Soviets the nazis were fighting against. The answer is that some Poles had already done so and that more Poles would have done so after seeing how the Soviets treated Poles in general and the AK in particular.

Yes, some Poles did, but many more than that didn't. That's why it doesn't make sense to suppose what wudda shudda based on actions of negligible minority, while neglecting the majority.

Interesting to see that you refer to the AK as a very, very small group of nationalists.

AK fought against the Soviets but they did not fight with the Germans. Since AK fought against Germans too we might as well speculate that in the "wudda shudda" scenarion no, AK would not fight with the Germans but with the Russians. Vastly more Poles fought against the Germans with the Russians than with the Germans against the Russians.

.
Torq 32 | 2,999  
26 May 2009 /  #40
How do you think a peasant country of 30 million could had held on the most sophisticated country of 80 million!

Actually it was 35 million against 69 in 1939 and Poland wasn't really what you could
call a peasant country. We had good industry and very decent tanks and war planes
(we didn't have enough time to build a sufficient number of them - you have to remember
that Poland regained her independence only 20 years earlier).

I agree that simultaneous pre-emptive strike by French and Polish armies
against Germany in 1936 (as advised by Piłsudski) would help to stabilize
the situation and stop the consequent effects of nazi rise to power.

If you ask what should follow then, I can only say that it would have depended
on German people. If they gave up their lunacy and plans to conquer Europe then
they would achieve what Germany achieved now 20 years earlier, without all the
terrible bloodshed and innocent victims.
If they would persist with their lunatic plans of conquest then the only way would
be to split Germany into 5-6 smaller countries and try to keep them antagonized
against one another by bribes and political manipulation.

Personally, I would prefer the former scenario.
Harry  
26 May 2009 /  #41
Yes, some Poles did, but many more than that didn't. That's why it doesn't make sense to suppose what wudda shudda based on actions of negligible minority, while neglecting the majority.

The vast majority were never given the opportunity to fight the Russians. In the places where they were given the opportunity, a sizeable number accepted the offer.

AK fought against the Soviets but they did not fight with the Germans.

Do try reading the thread. We are trying to talk about Poles fighting the Russians and doing so alongside Germans, we are not talking about Poles fighting with the Germans.
Salomon 2 | 436  
26 May 2009 /  #42
Do try reading the thread. We are trying to talk about Poles fighting the Russians and doing so alongside Germans, we are not talking about Poles fighting with the Germans.

You are trying to do your everyday job. You use dariusz for this purpose ... you can't quote sources ... that is your problem.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,590  
26 May 2009 /  #43
Germany broken some points from Treaty of Versalies ... interposeing them would be the best option.

If we look on what Germans have later done in Europe ... it would be the best option.

You don't get me Lukasz...I know what you WANT, but I doubt that you CAN!
Do you really think that Poland could have subdued a much bigger, much more industrialized, much more modern Germany for long (even if we assume initially success)?

Remember, at that time there was no hindsight...man Europeans still appeased Hitler because of feeling guilty for the Treaty, thinking he had something going for him.

I think any militarily action of Poland would be suicide on the polish side and later, when german troops conquered Poland they couldn't even hope for an help!

Hitler was attacked first after all...it was only his right now to punish the Poles!
z_darius 14 | 3,968  
26 May 2009 /  #44
The vast majority were never given the opportunity to fight the Russians. In the places where they were given the opportunity, a sizeable number accepted the offer.

Those who didn't fight were still more numerous by far.

Do try reading the thread. We are trying to talk about Poles fighting the Russians and doing so alongside Germans, we are not talking about Poles fighting with the Germans.

I did read it and I wrote in my very first post - the topic is silly. I only posted her because of some factual errors and illogical assumptions.

As for the topic itself - talk till cows come home. There is no answer.
sjam 2 | 541  
26 May 2009 /  #45
NSZ units continued the armed struggle against the Polish communist regime for some years after WWII. This is cap badge and shoulder board that belonged an elderly friend; a veteran in Chicago who died a couple of years ago.

Holy Cross

It is a fact that Gen. Anders had no plan that included any Germans forces in preparation of WWIII.

Anders did envsion that Poles forcibly conscripted into the Red Army stationed in Germany would desert and join a Polish army of liberation just as Poles had done from the Werhmacht during the war. The British forbade Anders to accept any members of the SS into the ranks of the Second Corps but apparently a Lithuanian SS unit was accepted into Anders army in contravention of this British order. But I believe this was post-war.
Salomon 2 | 436  
26 May 2009 /  #46
You don't get me Lukasz...I know what you WANT, but I doubt that you CAN!

The point is that in 1936 ... Germans were weak ... and broken signed by them agreement. It was possible in 1936 ...

In 1939 ... it wasn't possible and that is why it was better to enter aliance with Soviets and accept something what happened in 1945.

That is the point.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,590  
26 May 2009 /  #47
I agree that simultaneous pre-emptive strike by French and Polish armies
against Germany in 1936 (as advised by Piłsudski) would help to stabilize
the situation and stop the consequent effects of nazi rise to power.

How???

That is the point.

No it's not!

I already conceded a possible conquering of the capital...BUT THEN WHAT???

How do you think will that "stabilizing" work???
What next??? How do you think to convince the Germans still smarting from the Treaty now to bow to you and accept you and your dictat???

You have no plan, it will end in a disaster for you!
Salomon 2 | 436  
26 May 2009 /  #48
How???

By interposeing all points from Treaty of Versailies.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,590  
26 May 2009 /  #49
I see...
I wish you had done that...Germany would now reach till to the Baltics and the Poles had gotten an bad image as the warmongers of Europe! :)
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
26 May 2009 /  #50
BUT THEN WHAT???

Destroying or taking over your industry and reshaping your country into an agrarian state with nothing but a police force, with an international commitee managing your international policies for you, if there was ever a country that needed to be babysitted with a gun to its forehead it was a pre-war Germany (and i'm not sure you improved at all).
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,590  
26 May 2009 /  #51
Destroying or taking over your industry and reshaping your country into an agrarian state with nothing but a police force,

Somehow I come to believe Poles are dreamers by default! :)

Luki invades and takes over successfully the whole of Germany of course without having a plan!
Sokrates makes the highest developed country on earth at that time to a farm with only a police force without having a plan!
All nice, wonderful dreams...but nothing realistic, pragmatic, workable.

I think your history couldn't had happened any other way...it's your psyche!
Torq 32 | 2,999  
26 May 2009 /  #52
How???

I explained in the second part of my post:
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,590  
26 May 2009 /  #53
No you didn't!
You too just tell a wish, another dream...you don't have a plan how to realistical achieve that.

It wouldn't had worked...in the end you were the baddie in the history books as you attacked a peaceful neighbour!

I wish you had done that...:)
Salomon 2 | 436  
26 May 2009 /  #54
I see...I wish you had done that...Germany would now reach till to the Baltics and the Poles had gotten an bad image as the warmongers of Europe! :)

You see Poland after communism isn't so strong as it was in 1936 ...

in 1920 ... Poland beaten whole Soviet Union... it wasn't dream it was reality ... some people call in miracle...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish-Soviet_War

in 1936 it was possible to beat Germans ... and if we look on what Germans have done later it wouldn't be that bad.

.in the end you were the baddie in the history books as you attacked a peaceful neighbour!

Germany boken some points from Versliese treaty ...
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,590  
26 May 2009 /  #55
Again...it could have been possible that you beat the Germans! That is not the point...

(Am I speaking chinese here?)

The problem arose with the first day after! What now??? How do you occupy and keep occupying and controlling the whole of Germany, all Germans???

Do you think you could do it violently? Do you plan on convincing the people?
What about the resistance??? Uprisings??? Sabotage??? Guerilla war??? Passive resistance?
Underground government???

Germany boken some points from Versliese treaty ...

A treaty who was now even widely seen as wrong and unfair by the publics of the organizers = hence appeasement!

That would be a lame point...

Poland beaten whole Soviet Union

Well...you didn't make it to Moscow and didn't plan on occupying Russia and the millions of Russians..
Torq 32 | 2,999  
26 May 2009 /  #56
in the end you were the baddie in the history books as you attacked a peaceful neighbour!

Well, considering the fact that we wouldn't have lost 12 million citizens (35 million
in 1939 - 23 million in 1945), would keep our lands in the East and possibly gained
some in the West and didn't become a Soviet satelite for 45 years then becoming
"the baddie in the history books" wouldn't be that bad really. I could live with that :)

By the way, I'm new on this forum so forgive me if you answered this question
before - what is it that brought you to this forum, BB? Why do you spend so much
time discussing issues regarding Poles and Poland? Just curious (and I think it's a cool
idea by the way... maybe I will invade some German forum lol)
Rafal_1981  
26 May 2009 /  #57
So you would not throw your grenade at me???

That was pretty funny, heh

AK forces which accepted weapons from the nazis to fight the Soviets with. The AK were not fighting on the German side you idiot, they were fighting on the Polish side and sometimes that meant fighting the same people the nazis were fighting.

Harry, you are becoming...reasonable

Even not as both groups very probably would be put under the western allied command fighting against the Soviets occupying Poland???

It depends whether it would be wermaht or ss troops.

It still would be a 'fight syphilis with cholera' kind of behaviour...
Salomon 2 | 436  
26 May 2009 /  #58
Well...you didn't make it to Moscow and didn't plan on occupying Russia and the millions of Russians..

Polands aim wasn't occupation of Germany.

German leader Adolf Hitler claimed that he wants conquer Poland and France in his book from 1925.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mein_Kampf

It would be fight for survival... If we look on WWII ... it would be resonable action.

A treaty who was now even widely seen as wrong and unfair by the publics of the organizers

They should read Hitlers book first (published in 1925).
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,590  
26 May 2009 /  #59
Well, considering the fact that we wouldn't have lost 12 million citizens (35 million
in 1939 - 23 million in 1945), would keep our lands in the East and possibly gained
some in the West and didn't become a Soviet satelite for 45 years then becoming
"the baddie in the history books" wouldn't be that bad really. I could live with that :)

The chances wouldn't be that high that you would keep all that.
Most probably the international league would turn a blind eye at some compensation for the attacked and violated Germans..

what is it that brought you to this forum, BB?

My family is one of those prussian Silesians which got expelled.
I remember stumbling onto this board during a Danzig discussion....:)

Why do you spend so much
time discussing issues regarding Poles and Poland?

I rarely discuss polish things! They don't interest me much and I'm not the expert on polish things.
But somehow Germany and the Germans pop up here continously also historical questions about WWII.
I'm a historical interested silesian German, often the only one.
Without me nobody would help you along and you would only all agree with each other all the time without a german point of view:)

Stop discussing "german things" and I'm gone, promise! :)

Polands aim wasn't occupation of Germany.

But what then???
What do you want to achieve? And how? And what then? How realistical is that scenario?
Do you really think you could catch Hitler??
Salomon 2 | 436  
26 May 2009 /  #60
Bratwurs your theory about WWII is false ... Hitler planed war against half of Europe (Poland, France ... )

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mein_Kampf

Your theories about treaty and German society ... are false as long as Hitlers book was bestseller in Germany ... Argument like "we haven't know his plans" is false

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