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Why communism failed in Poland?


jwojcie 2 | 763  
6 Mar 2009 /  #151
"Russians are the only guilty party" they say.

The problem is that Russia wanted to inherit only this what was good in USSR, in symbolic level as well (national anthem for example...). No other past soviet state do that (?)...

Because of that there is still a lot of "white stains" in Russian history books (I only heard about it, didn't see). Because of that there is for example this unnecessary obstruction regarding Katyn in Russian court.

Simply put: you cann't just take what was good and forget what was bad, and start saying around the world how tragic it was that USSR collapsed (Putin). It is simply incoherent message.

I can't recall any country that recently has taken any responsibility of anything

Germany... They have some pull back recently, but still they've managed with their past quite well. Personally I don't require from Russia any big moves, just this constant denial is tiring. Of course important factor here is time... to many important people in soviets era are still alive.
samsmith 3 | 23  
6 Mar 2009 /  #152
yes it could have been worded better " ashamed". more ..." take a realistic view".

I really hate " PC" by the way. I have just recently took up a job for local government in a Town Hall loactated in East End of London. Talk about political correctness, you can see where the country has gone wrong over the last few years.

Anyway must go it's 09:45. At 10:00 ive got to raise the Ghanian flag outside town hall to celebrate " Ghanian independance day". The mayor will also read a prescripted speech. The same speech as last weeks flag raising (can't remember country) and the week before and the week before etc etc. The only difference being the speech stays the same but the blank spaces are replaced with the relevant country.

Oh and also today is the last day of London Borough of XXXX Lesbian Gay and Transexual Month so at miday have to take down the Rainbow flag. Funny no speech from the major for that one.

Notice how I feel the need to XXXX out the boroughs name, this for a reason. Sad really, yes the country is PC mad PC ruined. We should start a thread on this, comparison of PC in Poland and UK.
Juche 9 | 292  
6 Mar 2009 /  #153
Liberals are the scolds who feel guilt about the past and try to make everyone share their guilt and shame.

coservatives are old-fashioned tight asses who spout meaningless patriotic jingoes
SeanBM 35 | 5,808  
6 Mar 2009 /  #154
But there was no spite towards anybody because commies proclaimed "we're all brothers" and to some extent that worked. I can't say I didn't like it.

So long as you were a commie, of course their were commie hunts in America, much like the witch hunts.

And?.. I mean I don't quite understand what does nowaydays Lithuania have to do with the USSR? In fact even times of the USSR Baltic States didn't look as a part of it.

Lithuania has everything got to do with USSR, it was part of it.
Lithuania needs to modernise but there are very definite hail marks of commie up bringing here.

We've probably can speak out more things without worrying of being imprisoned or killed but that's it.

A good start, is what I'd call that.

I could say more about goods and industry of those years but I don't want to look like commy booster.

This is a discussion,
the USSR is finished.
I would like to hear more about what you were told.

I'm not sure if I have any specific rate before or after which I can or cannot work with people. Sometimes I may simply call it "generation gap" sometimes it has something to do with their "old school". But I may also tell you I had similar problem with people in the US who still lived in the times of "cold war".

From the USA you may get prejudices but people work.
My point was that people have learned not to work in communism, it is very destructive.

maybe if there were no commies we (you, poles, me) would all live in one big Deutschland.

Nobody knows but it is better to have one enemy, rather than be attacked (not liberated ha ha ha) from both sides.

These countries have still not recovered. However even till this day the UK Government still advertise this as a great piece of British history and triumph.

the Russian folk I know refuse to talk or even accept things that have happened in thier recent history. It is as if somthing like " If we don't like the truth then forget the truth and it will go away". For some reason is seems uncomfortable to look at reality.

I lost your point, it sounds to me that you are writing one is as guilty as the other?.

Indians are left with the things that they want and appreciate about their former invaders or oppressors, yet still remain undeniably and unchangeably Indian.

You can't blame people for looking to the future and taking the best from what happened.
But as you said

invaders or oppressors

.

In order to have a good road the foundation must be secure and built on trust. No one will ever trust Russia until the past is dealt with, including their own. Build on substandard ground ther first frost will show the sink holes I say.

I think the mixing of peoples will help this greatly.
In every conflict the politicians tell us how evil the others are, now we get to see the truth for ourselves.

Not to mention how long do you think the victims should wait for an apology.

It seems everyone is waiting for an apology from someone.

shame is an understatement, look at what Germany has been put through. News flash, NKVD was just as bad as Nazis,

I actually agree with this.
The Soviets have come off far too lightly.
And if it continues, they might be seen as "liberators", which of course is not true.
Out of the frying pan into the fire.

It has not escaped my attention where the people talking about not giving apologies are from.
I also think celinski's point is not so much about an apology but about how the history books will be written? celinski?.

Liberals are the scolds who feel guilt about the past and try to make everyone share their guilt and shame.

You should pay one cent every time you use the word Liberal :)

Russia is still run by Communist Putin and his croonies.

KGB is the official name, cough cough cough.

Baltic States consider themselves immediate heir of all industry built on their territory by the USSR enthusiastically look for the so-called "Party's gold" but under no circumstances they ever share the guilt or either take any responsibility upon themselves. "Russians are the only guilty party" they say.

I don't think so, I would like to make a separation between communist state policy and the Russian people.

you cann't just take what was good and forget what was bad, and start saying around the world how tragic it was that USSR collapsed (Putin). It is simply incoherent message.

Could you clarify, I did not understand this.
jwojcie 2 | 763  
6 Mar 2009 /  #155
jwojcie:
you cann't just take what was good and forget what was bad, and start saying around the world how tragic it was that USSR collapsed (Putin). It is simply incoherent message.

Could you clarify, I did not understand this.

I must be my terrible english :-)
For example (simplifacation):
USSR made Sputnik, this was great achievement, so Russians used to say: "we did that".
USSR made Gulag, this was terrible thing, Russians used to say: "it wasn't our ancestors fault, it was this evil outsiders. Stalin? Stalin was from Georgia!".

And so on.. This process lead to idealization of USSR. In that way history is rewritten.
Putin indeed said that USSR collapse was great tragedy...

So, Russians cann't expect that other nations will accept Russia as a heir apparent of USSR achivements without taking USSR faults.
celinski 31 | 1,258  
6 Mar 2009 /  #156
KGB is the official name, cough cough cough.

check out the newest post from communist "Russia to outlaw criticism of WWII tactics".
PolskaMan 2 | 147  
6 Mar 2009 /  #157
Stalin was from Georgia!".

Then why arnt we blaming Austria for WW2??
hitler was born in Austria
celinski 31 | 1,258  
6 Mar 2009 /  #158
Stalin was from Georgia

just wanted to fix the quote.
Juche 9 | 292  
6 Mar 2009 /  #159
Then why arnt we blaming Austria for WW2??

we are blaming all capitalist imperialist and revisionist. nationality no matta!
SeanBM 35 | 5,808  
6 Mar 2009 /  #160
So, Russians cann't expect that other nations will accept Russia as a heir apparent of USSR achivements without taking USSR faults.

I understand.
Would you (any of you) see a difference between The Political ČelliteČ and the normal Russian?.
I have to say I do.
Admittedly it is not a clean or clear distinction but one I think is to be noted.

check out the newest post from communist "Russia to outlaw criticism of WWII tactics".

Where is that?. Can you post a link please.
SeanBM 35 | 5,808  
6 Mar 2009 /  #162
I see, thanks.

It looks like there will be two histories.

Lithuania got into 'trouble' banning Soviet stuff.
They are trying to show that the U.S.S.R was terrible here.
Perhaps Poland should do the same?.

I don't think an apology is realistic from Russia but at least a realistic history is needed.

Why is it that the Commies got away with all of this while the Nazis didn't?.
This is a long question of course.

---------------------------------------------------------------------- -----------------

I have a question for the Russians on here, it is not about communism but land.
Do Russians have a special obsessiveness about land?. Just you have by far the biggest country.
Land is important to everyone but RussiaĄ come on, it is two and a half times bigger than China, it is enormous.
Just a side order question :)
celinski 31 | 1,258  
6 Mar 2009 /  #163
Why is it that the Commies got away with all of this while the Nazis didn't?.

Because the people were silenced. I can remember not to very long ago in the Ukraine area more bodies were found, this was like 1980. Even then the citizen that lived there would whisper behind closed door and know not to speak of this,
SeanBM 35 | 5,808  
6 Mar 2009 /  #164
people were silenced.

Why?.

One of the biggest differences I have noticed between this Polish Forums and Poland (the country ;)
Is that on PF people talk about world war two.
While in Poland people of a certain age or older talk about the commies, after all it was the last opressive invasion.
celinski 31 | 1,258  
6 Mar 2009 /  #165
While in Poland people of a certain age or older talk about the commies

Sadly its not just Poland, my father has a hard time speaking of his past and even failed to speak of this until I was a teenager. Many don't know this but even contacting realitive in Communist Poland put the family at risk. It has not been that long that the deported families felt safe to go back to Poland. Today it is the children of the families that are speaking out for justice.
SeanBM 35 | 5,808  
6 Mar 2009 /  #166
I remember hearing a radio show about an old woman talking about how she still never uses people's names when on a tram or generally in public, for fear of getting into trouble or putting someone else in it.

I actually have many accounts of this myself, a guy here in Vilnius was building something beside where I used to stay, he was on top of a wall with a hammer and chisel, banging away., I asked what he was building, he said 'I don't know'.

For quite a few people here the cold war is not over.

I do feel sorry for the elderly women who beg on the streets here, they were promised a job and a flat and now have nothing.

They were brought up completely dependant on the state and now they can not do anything for themselves.
They fell in the cracks between two very different worlds.
celinski 31 | 1,258  
6 Mar 2009 /  #167
They fell in the cracks between two very different worlds.

That is wrong in any society. When we look at the Cold war and what it was, it is still there just changed the faces.
SeanBM 35 | 5,808  
6 Mar 2009 /  #168
That is wrong in any society.

Yes. The transition period is not going very well here, very slowly with little support or understanding.
It is changing but slowly, too slowly for these old women.

When we look at the Cold war and what it was, it is still there just changed the faces.

Well... I think some people have been brought up fighting, so what are they supposed to do now?.

I would like to see better relations between east and west.
I am amazed the past two years how many Russians there are travelling, it never used to be like that.
celinski 31 | 1,258  
6 Mar 2009 /  #169
I am amazed the past two years how many Russians there are travelling, it never used to be like that.

You see this also?

It is changing but slowly, too slowly for these old women.

I think with the 70th coming up you will see a rise in the history being told.

Yes. The transition period is not going very well here, very slowly with little support or understanding

I also see a closer tie with the Nations working as a team to help restore Poland, the people and close the gap between the ones that lost Poland and the ones that lived under communist control.
jwojcie 2 | 763  
6 Mar 2009 /  #170
Would you (any of you) see a difference between The Political ČelliteČ and the normal Russian?.
I have to say I do.

I see a difference, but I'm worried about future. That's why I'm writing about this USSR history whitenning in Russian history books. Young generation learns about history from this twisted books... Effect? youth movements like "Nasi" (ours?).
celinski 31 | 1,258  
6 Mar 2009 /  #171
youth movements like "Nasi" (ours?).

This is a great point.
Randal 1 | 577  
6 Mar 2009 /  #172
Notice how I feel the need to XXXX out the boroughs name, this for a reason. Sad really, yes the country is PC mad PC ruined.

Good God. PC madness. Look what Liberals have wrought.

But there was no spite towards anybody because commies proclaimed "we're all brothers" and to some extent that worked.

Sounds like Obama today with his hollow calls for "unity" and "bipartisanship" which really means, "My way or STFU".

You should pay one cent every time you use the word Liberal :)

Lol... Guilty! Hey, it's not my fault they cause so many problems! Where shall I send all the pennies?
MrBubbles 10 | 614  
6 Mar 2009 /  #173
Communism kept Eastern Europe non-competitive for a few decades. It also bankrupted the country and gave a huge compliant workforce to the countries that 'won' WW2. In that sense it was successful.
Randal 1 | 577  
6 Mar 2009 /  #174
This is one of the more reasonable things I've seen you post, Bubbles.
celinski 31 | 1,258  
6 Mar 2009 /  #175
As for taking responsibility... pls answer some of mine questions:

1) You are correct, responsibility falls on the guilty reguardless of country. As for the industry, they paid in blood. Russians are one of the last to take responsibility, but you are right they do not stand alone.

2)Yes, the goverment just as Germany has had to do. I feel putting older men and women behind bars serves very little and in my heart feel they have lived life times with demons that can be worse than any man made cell. It would stand as a lesson to our youth that crimes must be dealt with, least we teach the children history forgets. Accountability is what I ask for, stop the lies, Russia if you hear me , stop treating your citizens as children let them be free to speak the truth.

You say Russians suffered the highest on numbers, I say yes but at least they had a gun to defend themselves. How many Russian died due to Stalins thirst for blood. As a dictator you should look at where you are asking troops to go and what to do, the end result was due to backfire on many of his calls.

I do not say your family could have taken Stalin or Hitler for that matter, out. But my God, today to be throwing this bastard in our face, reviving him as something he was not. This is what I object to. I do not blame the Russian people of today responsible, just as I do not blame US military to the same standards. They did what they were trainned to do, and for many it cost them their life.

It seems everyone is waiting for an apology from someone.

I am sorry, I am sorry this whole bloody war took place and so many lost their lives. I am sorry I never met my grandmother, aunts, uncle and others I never even saw picture of, not to mention a country. Today I am sorry that Russia cannot say, were sorry, Stalin was wrong.
SeanBM 35 | 5,808  
7 Mar 2009 /  #176
I was talking to a Lithuanian last night about the USSR, he said that Lithuanians see the Soviets and Russians as completely different.
And that the Commies destroyed Russian culture.
Maybe that is how Lithuanians can live with so many Russians from that era?.
Do any Russians agree or disagree with this ides?.

I am sorry, I am sorry this whole bloody war took place and so many lost their lives. I am sorry I never met my grandmother, aunts, uncle and others I never even saw picture of, not to mention a country. Today I am sorry that Russia cannot say, were sorry, Stalin was wrong.

I would think you would prefer a correct history than just an apology.
Filios1 8 | 1,336  
7 Mar 2009 /  #177
Soviets and Russians as completely different

Well, there is a degree of truth to this. However, the Russian subserviant attitude is universal to both old Imperial Russia, the Soviet Union, and today's modern Russia. It is still very much alive. Even today, I speak to a lot of Russians who will just not listen to me when I try to give them my view.

I know a priest, who was once visiting the Vatican, and met a group from Russia. This was in the mid 90's. Since he knew Russian well, he tagged along, and kind of stuck behind them, listening to their tour guide.

At one point, one of the older Russian ladies couldn't handle it, and demanded he tell her who he is. All he said is, "Non Capisco."

Later he overheard them discussing him, and he heard very clearly, the man asking if he understood all that they were saying. They were so very much afraid that he was a spy! And it was 1995!

I'm afraid that is the lasting legacy of both Communist Russia, and that has been passed down from Imperial Russia.
z_darius 14 | 3,968  
8 Mar 2009 /  #178
Why communism failed in Poland?

It never did.

I didn't take roots in Poland in the first place so it couldn't have failed.
Communism failed in Czechoslovakia, East Germany, Romania etc.

According to Soviet rules Poland was in stage 1 of establishing communism, i.e. initial whack at it. The whack lasted some 50 years and then the Soviet ideology was whacked.
joepilsudski 26 | 1,389  
8 Mar 2009 /  #179
Can you provide some evidence for this claim? From my studies there were certainly many prominent Jewish communists (Marx, Trotsky, etc), but there were more non-Jews who were its active theoreticians and activists.

Don't trust ZioPedia...It is good for non-political history, for information about artists and such...In short:

Why Did Communism Fail in Poland?

Because it was an 'anti-Christ' and 'anti-human' abomination, a system run by devilish bureaucrats and parasites designed to enslave the people...But the bankers liked it, because they earned their interest and profits.
OP southern 75 | 7,096  
8 Mar 2009 /  #180
Is there any Ostalgie in Poland?People who like the good old times?

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