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Why communism failed in Poland?


Randal 1 | 577  
3 Mar 2009 /  #91
Spoken like a true Commie.

responsible and guilty of killing individualism.

Unionizing is the exact opposite of individualism.
Trevek 26 | 1,702  
3 Mar 2009 /  #92
very good! you have pointed correctly that also the western puppet master is also responsible and guilty of killing individualism. and mass advertising does not kill individualism or does it propogate that the masses consume without thinking? and dare you not criticise our hotel in Pyongyang, would you like to compare Warsaw metro with Pyongyang metro? How is your Warsaw metro? Very good? I think not!!! One line only, very incomplete - look at metro built by socialist engineers in Pyongyang!

I think you have the wrong person. For a start, the case I am talking about was in the days before socialism/communism. They didn't kill individualism, they prosecuted these guys for swearing an oath to the union rather than the king.

I don't live in Warsaw (nor am I Polish), what about the London/Paris/NY/TYneside metros, which actually cover some distance more than the Warsaw one.
SeanBM 35 | 5,808  
4 Mar 2009 /  #93
Don't forget that after WWII, Poland's infrastructure was devastated. The USSR rebuilt a lot of that.

I have a problem with this statement.
two things,
The commies did promise a lot but did not build much in the way of infastructure, it is apparent today.
Secondly, if the USSR rebuilt the train lines, how come they are the western size and not the Russian size?.
Even today you have to change train from Poland to Lithuania.

It's not a question of communism failing in Poland; it's a question of the Polish people being ready for communism. The backwardness of the peasants, the Western-looking intellectuals, the demoralized urban classes, the destroyed infrastructure spelled the defeat of that system before it could even take root. The social conditions were not right for communism in Poland.

When Marx spoke of communism he meant it for the developed, industrial nations like France and England. It was never his aim to advocate it for peasant societies like Russia or Cuba.

?, I thought even Marx was aware that true communism could not work, that people would not be able for it and it would take supermen to do it?.

Not the English and the French.
samsmith 3 | 23  
4 Mar 2009 /  #94
I know some russian people very well, there is a side of them which i dislike very much and also a side which i like. Such is the complexity of thier makeup that it is very hard to put into words.

On the whole they are childish ( children in adult bodies). Will unashamebly lie when it suits them, deny somthing happend when it suits them, never admit they are wrong ( because it is a sign of weekness), never apologise ( because it is a sign of weekness). There opinion is alwlays correct. They are generally childish, arrogant and ignorant. This is a product of a nation where all freedom of choice and thought are removed. A system of total governmental mass control. Such was the extent of this that these traits are still visible today. Basically a product of an false and unhealthy society. There bigest trait ( and most amusing is) " If i do not want to belive X or Y then I do not have to, even if the facts are staring me straight in the face". Having said all that I still do actually like them, strange as it may seem."
Juche 9 | 292  
4 Mar 2009 /  #95
I know some russian people very well

you are copmparing Russian with Polish people?
samsmith 3 | 23  
4 Mar 2009 /  #96
no i am saying that the general mindset of russians is very idiotic, however they no, no difference. They tried to impose an idiotic and unworkable system on satelite countries ( Poland, Czech) which was doomed to failure from the start.
Juche 9 | 292  
4 Mar 2009 /  #97
idiotic and unworkable system

a quiet and subtle reference to usurious system of finance used by western imperialist monkey to hold workers of world bondage, very clever!
Sasha 2 | 1,083  
5 Mar 2009 /  #98
They are generally childish, arrogant and ignorant.

Are you Russian I wonder? I'm asking because the whole your message perfectly fits criteria you mentioned. Should I explain any further?
Czarnobog - | 33  
5 Mar 2009 /  #99
Hahaha

I thought even Marx was aware that true communism could not work, that people would not be able for it and it would take supermen to do it?.
Not the English and the French.

Marx was an activist. He believed that communism was inevitable and that it was the next logical step after capitalism. He was writing during a time when capitalism was blatantly oppressing the working class (slums, ghettos and urban waste were the common lot for the workers). He believed, wrongly, that capitalism would exacerbate the situation and that the working class would have no choice but to overthrow the capitalist class and to take control over the means of production (which they build anyways).

He was not a Utopian in the sense that he did not believe that people had to be perfect to enjoy a communist society. Then again, he wrote very little on the subject.
jwojcie 2 | 763  
5 Mar 2009 /  #100
...when capitalism was blatantly oppressing the working class (slums, ghettos and urban waste were the common lot for the workers)

Isn't that a perfect description of current China?
Trevek 26 | 1,702  
5 Mar 2009 /  #101
Just exactly where does Nazi style "National SOCIALISM" differ with Stalinist socialism? I've never quite worked it out.
Juche 9 | 292  
5 Mar 2009 /  #102
slums, ghettos and urban waste were the common lot for the workers)

this is acurate description of many cities today in USA, for example Detroit or Chicago, do not be fooled by the propaganda of the puppet masters
Sasha 2 | 1,083  
5 Mar 2009 /  #103
Just exactly where does Nazi style "National SOCIALISM" differ with Stalinist socialism? I've never quite worked it out.

One of regimes implied unity of all people, all races, all cultures another one superiority of one nation. That's a distinction, id est answer on your question. Although let's put aside the way it was implanted in first case.
SeanBM 35 | 5,808  
5 Mar 2009 /  #104
One of regimes implied unity of all people, all races, all cultures

I have to say, i remember being thought about Communism in school in Ireland as a teen.
I thought it was a wonderful idea, truly beautiful.

Until I got a chance to see how it has been implemented and the many pitfalls.

Capitalism is by no means perfect and needs adjusting but Communism is not for humans in my opinion.

It works for mindless ants and bees, they are the true commies.
1jola 14 | 1,879  
5 Mar 2009 /  #105
I don't live in Warsaw (nor am I Polish), what about the London/Paris/NY/TYneside metros, which actually cover some distance more than the Warsaw one.

Juche is right:) I have ridden the London, Paris, Moscow, and Beijing metros. The last two are far better. They won't let me into North Korea so I can't report on that one. They won't let anyone out either to report.
samsmith 3 | 23  
5 Mar 2009 /  #106
no it's probably because at work and to a certain extent out of work i rub shoulders / hang around with them. They simply know nothing outside there tiny little world. Telling lies and covering up the truth ( even if very obvious) seems to be a national hobby. Other than that they are ok.
SeanBM 35 | 5,808  
5 Mar 2009 /  #107
Wow!, that could apply to any nation.
Perception is nineteenths the law.

I looked up, you are referring to the Russians.

I know some russian people very well, there is a side of them which i dislike very much and also a side which i like. Such is the complexity of thier makeup that it is very hard to put into words.

Yeah... again, could apply to a lot of people.

Needs work,
Try harder
(D+)
ha ha ha,
I am just kidding with that last bit.
Sasha 2 | 1,083  
5 Mar 2009 /  #108
Capitalism is by no means perfect and needs adjusting but Communism is not for humans in my opinion.

It works for mindless ants and bees, they are the true commies.

I'm not a follower of commies' ideas but in my turn I have to say that an average Russian (should I better say Soviet) of late 70s, early 80s was kinder towards his own nation and foreigners, was better educated, didn't have to worry about the quality of what he ate (because the quality of food was much better) and always had an opportunity to work and earn his living. That's probably eat.

The methods of manipulating people just became in a way a bit more complicated but generally they stayed the same. So your sentence about insects is fair enough for the actual reality.

EDIT:

no it's probably because at work and to a certain extent out of work i rub shoulders / hang around with them. They simply know nothing outside there tiny little world. Telling lies and covering up the truth ( even if very obvious) seems to be a national hobby. Other than that they are ok.

Don't really know what to say on this. Maybe you're just unlucky. I would never marked that as our national feature. I would name some different things...
SeanBM 35 | 5,808  
5 Mar 2009 /  #109
an average Russian (should I better say Soviet) of late 70s, early 80s was kinder towards his own nation and foreigners,

What foreigners?.
The Iron curtain kept us apart, unfortunately.
I am very happy, we (normal people) get to communicate finally and not let the politicians, with their own agendas, tell us what other people are like.

was better educated, didn't have to worry about the quality of what he ate (because the quality of food was much better) and always had an opportunity to work and earn his living.

The quality of food everywhere was better.
They told us GM foods would be better, now they tell us organic is better. when i was a kid there was no organic foods or so much that there was no concern about anything else.

Work and earn money

?,
I am dealing with an old guy today here in Lithuania, he does not work, only for bribes.
The corruption in this country is underestimated, bribes are a way of life.
Earn money?, what use was money, if there was nothing in the shops?.

The methods of manipulating people just became in a way a bit more complicated but generally they stayed the same.

One of the big differences between communism and other isms seems to be freedom of speech, tens of thousands of Lithuanians were sent to work in Siberia, as young as 15 years old (I heard).

They have banned the sale of any and all Soviet memorabilia here, saying it was as bad as the Nazis.
(it should be noted that Lithuania has an agenda when accusing the soviets). The Jews here were mainly killed by Lithuanians (during the Nazi occupation) they really did do it themselves.

Then the Soviets came and the jews fought with them, sometimes killing Lithuanians, so there is a bit of a political battle here.
Something like, you killed us (forget about what we did).

I do find here in Lithuanian, that there was a devolution, people who could think for themselves or had leadership qualities were killed.
If you blindly followed, you lived, thankfully this not hereditary and there is a few generations gap here between people over 40 and under 40 years of age, it will take time.

I can't work with many people over here over 40 as a result of the communist infliction.

I do not have much time now, I will try to make my point clearer later.
Do you know what i mean?, is it the same for you (you being anyone).
Juche 9 | 292  
5 Mar 2009 /  #110
One of the big differences between communism and other isms seems to be freedom of speech

in poland you can go to jail for saying or writing something bad about president, uour freedom is illusionary, comrade
jwojcie 2 | 763  
5 Mar 2009 /  #111
One of regimes implied unity of all people, all races, all cultures another one superiority of one nation.

Yeah... this worked out perfectly on Siberia... so many cultures mix together.
From Pole point of view the only difference between German fascism and Soviet Union communism during Stalin rule was in scale and instruments used for slavery and extermination. Fortunately after Stalin it was mostly only kind of slavery.

I have to say that Soviets were much cleverer, especially regarding propaganda. I cann't believe so many people still believes in that system, especially french "intellectuals".

We can argue for what extent soviet type of communism was real communism,
but it is insanity to claim that this system was working and was benefiting simple man.

because the quality of food was much better

It Poland quality of food was much better to, at least between 1978 - 1989. During that time shops were empty, so people used to get food straight from relatives in the village

(if someone was lucky enough to have them)... :-) So this was very ecological food...
Juche 9 | 292  
5 Mar 2009 /  #112
We can argue for what extent soviet type of communism was real communism,
but it is insanity to claim that this system was working and was benefiting simple man.

then you have never visit DPRK, for North Korea is the most realest communism there ever was. to say other is to lie like a venomous snake.
jwojcie 2 | 763  
5 Mar 2009 /  #113
North Korea is the most realest communism

Well if it is the most realest then there is no hope for communism.
Communism has a tiny chance only if there is no personality cult. NK doesn't pass that test.
If real communism is some kind of optimum point, then NK is aproaching it from the wrong direction something like -1/n where n->infinity...

So I have to disagree with you Juche, I think that the most realest communism is in Sweden they are like 1/n where n->infinity... I hope that they will stop at some point because you know they will clash with you, o wait that is impossible, well at least they will be very close to you, if you don't stop that madness :-)

PS. Juche, did you get that book I've recomended you? You really need it :-)
Sasha 2 | 1,083  
5 Mar 2009 /  #114
The Iron curtain kept us apart, unfortunately.

True. But there was no spite towards anybody because commies proclaimed "we're all brothers" and to some extent that worked. I can't say I didn't like it.

The quality of food everywhere was better.
They told us GM foods would be better, now they tell us organic is better. when i was a kid there was no organic foods or so much that there was no concern about anything else.

I agree here.

I am dealing with an old guy today here in Lithuania, he does not work, only for bribes.
The corruption in this country is underestimated, bribes are a way of life.

And?.. I mean I don't quite understand what does nowaydays Lithuania have to do with the USSR? In fact even times of the USSR Baltic States didn't look as a part of it.

One of the big differences between communism and other isms seems to be freedom of speech, tens of thousands of Lithuanians were sent to work in Siberia, as young as 15 years old (I heard).

We can't seriously speak about the freedom of speech at present either. We've probably can speak out more things without worrying of being imprisoned or killed but that's it. As for the freedom of speech in the USSR... I've got the book El otoño del patriarca (Patriarch's autumn) by G.G. Markes published in middle 70s in the USSR.

Secondly I was talking only about 70-80ss when there were no "sendings to Siberia" or so. The earlier years are totally different story.

Earn money?, what use was money, if there was nothing in the shops?.

Of course now we've got far bigger alternative of what to buy but that's surely wrong to state that there were nothing in shops. I could say more about goods and industry of those years but I don't want to look like commy booster. I just want everybody to be as fair as possible towards anything that happened in the past.

I do find here in Lithuanian, that there was a devolution, people who could think for themselves or had leadership qualities were killed.
If you blindly followed, you lived, thankfully this not hereditary and there is a few generations gap here between people over 40 and under 40 years of age, it will take time.

Yes this is the problem. Many people here realize that the brains especially on the early stages of "communism building" were simply extincted (physically).

I'm not sure if I have any specific rate before or after which I can or cannot work with people. Sometimes I may simply call it "generation gap" sometimes it has something to do with their "old school". But I may also tell you I had similar problem with people in the US who still lived in the times of "cold war". Eventually I don't think it's any related to particular regime; it inheres in all regimes.

There're lots of features in our mentality I wish we (Russians) didn't have. Perhaps some of those are related to our commy bygones but I don't dare state if that finally did us good or bad. Who knows... maybe if there were no commies we (you, poles, me) would all live in one big Deutschland.
samsmith 3 | 23  
5 Mar 2009 /  #115
I just don't get, although i try.

There are some simple facts relating to history which are documented and can't be changed. Millions of Ukranians missing presumed dead. Millions of Lithuanians missing presumed dead, Millions of Latvians Mission presumed dead, Millions of East Germans missing presumed dead. This subject has come accross with the Russian guys at work. They are of the opinion that this is simply not true. They are either completely brain washed and serioulsy believe that this never happended or for some reason feel it is somthing they must lie about. This is what I find ridiculous,. As if a false society has been created, all must believe that the society works well, anyone who challenges this must be swept under the carpet.
Juche 9 | 292  
5 Mar 2009 /  #116
Juche, did you get that book I've recomended you? You really need it :-)

only read books on approved reading list, that way myself and my cadres know we will suffa no brainwashing from capitalist spitting snake
jwojcie 2 | 763  
5 Mar 2009 /  #117
only read books on approved reading list

OMG... I've really started to believe that you are from NK, now I finally see you are joking :-)
celinski 31 | 1,258  
5 Mar 2009 /  #118
but I don't want to look like commy booster. I just want everybody to be as fair as possible towards anything that happened in the past.

Fair would include taking responsibility for actions of Soviet powers, correct?
samsmith 3 | 23  
5 Mar 2009 /  #119
I am quite fair: When you look at the UK history and the Commenwealth this is a part of our history where we should feel ashamed about our past ( basically sailing half way accross the world, invading countries, taking as much as we can and giving back nothing. These countries have still not recovered. However even till this day the UK Government still advertise this as a great piece of British history and triumph.

What I don't undertand is .....the Russian folk I know refuse to talk or even accept things that have happened in thier recent history. It is as if somthing like " If we don't like the truth then forget the truth and it will go away". For some reason is seems uncomfortable to look at reality. Reality being basic facts relating to history which are laid on the table and you can't change. I would be interested in your opinion on this.
time means 5 | 1,309  
5 Mar 2009 /  #120
what complete utter pc bollocks.

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