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Poland before WWII or Poland now what would you choose?


freebird 3 | 535  
5 Jun 2009 /  #1
I wonder how you guys feel about your territorial changes after the WWII and if you had a chance would you change it back to what Poland was before or prefer it the way it is now?
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,467  
5 Jun 2009 /  #2
That's difficult to say. Poland is now 20% smaller than pre-WW2 Poland which in turn was considerably smaller than pre-partition Poland. The one-half of pre-war Poladn Stalin annexed in 1939 in cahoots with Hitler and never returned had been ruled by Poland for many centuries, whilst the recovered northern and western territories had been under Polish influence in the distant middle ages, mostly as fiefdoms, or not at all. In other words the lsot territoreis bore a much stronger Polish cultural imprint despite the existence of large Ruthenian minorities.

Aside from towns, castles and monasteries, the lost lands were far more backward, but they did contain oilfields around Borysław and rich chernozem in Ukraine.

With a view to what has happned in the Balkans and SLovak-Hungarians tensions, having large Ruthenian minorities would probably be a source of major problems nowadays.

Today's truncated, compact, ethnically homogheous Poland is what Roman Dmowski had wanted, whislt Józef Piłdusdki thought in Jagiellonian terms of a tripartite federation.
OP freebird 3 | 535  
5 Jun 2009 /  #3
Poland is now 20% smaller than pre-WW2

this is one of the main reasons I asked :-)
Nathan 18 | 1,363  
5 Jun 2009 /  #4
The one-half of pre-war Poladn Stalin annexed

whilst the recovered northern and western territories

Nice pick of words ;)
Sokrates 8 | 3,348  
5 Jun 2009 /  #5
I wonder how you guys feel about your territorial changes after the WWII and if you had a chance would you change it back to what Poland was before or prefer it the way it is now?

No i would not, Lwów was a beatifull city but we're much much better off not bordering with Russia (yes there's Kaliningrad but thats just the enclave) also we traded 2 major cities for the price of one.

We're smaller and minus some places considered heartland of Poland but we're in a much safer position now.
Nathan 18 | 1,363  
5 Jun 2009 /  #6
Lwiw was a beatifull city

It continues to be beautiful and always will be. I love my city. :)
Sokrates 8 | 3,348  
5 Jun 2009 /  #7
Not really no, Polish Lwów was Paris like, after WW2 and Ukrainian takeover its a dump, hardly any of the old Polish architecture is left and it was replaced by socialist blocks.

Over centuries we made it into one of the most beatifull cities in Europe, you managed to wreck it in about 60 years, ofc you had WW2 to help.

Pre-war Polish Lwów:
mmszczecin.pl/rep/blog/4702/62421.4.jpg

Post-war Ukrainian Lwów:

venividi.ru/files/img/6794/0.jpg
Nathan 18 | 1,363  
5 Jun 2009 /  #8
Hahaha. I see you have never been in Lviv. Go there, Sokrates for Euro 2012 at least. You'll see. Most of the architecture was built by Austro-Hungarian empire, not Poland.

I was in Gdansk last summer and beside fabulous German-built architecture and German-built downtown, I saw building-blocks of communism time that you managed to raise likewise in the post-war period. Ithink it is a tragedy of both countries architecture-wise. :)
Sokrates 8 | 3,348  
5 Jun 2009 /  #9
Hahaha. I see you have never been in Lviv.

I've been to Lwów Nathan its a nice city but it was beatifull, along with Warsaw it was seen as most beatifull cities in the East, instead of rebuilding old Polish architecture you replaced it with fugly monstrosities.

Most of the architecture was built by Austro-Hungarian empire, not Poland.

Actually no, Poles kept developing Lwów and Kraków on their own, Austria didnt meddle much and why should it if its subjects develop cities out of their own pocket, after WW2 Soviets and Ukrainians went busily into destroying what remained of old Polish presence, sadly for Lwów that accounted for much of the local architecture.
Salomon 2 | 436  
5 Jun 2009 /  #10
Most of the architecture was built by Austro-Hungarian empire, not Poland.

I've thought that you durring WWII togheher with Germans have been murdering Poles not the Austrians in Lwów.
OP freebird 3 | 535  
5 Jun 2009 /  #11
I was in Gdansk last summer and beside fabulous German-built architecture and German-built downtown

I have to agree with you. A beautiful historical downtown but the rest around not very attractive
Salomon 2 | 436  
5 Jun 2009 /  #12
Downtown has been build by Poles after WWII.
OP freebird 3 | 535  
5 Jun 2009 /  #13
has been build

you mean restored. Yes you did a really great job, I got to admit.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,702  
5 Jun 2009 /  #14
Downtown has been build by Poles after WWII.

Not in commie style

...With its tall, gabled merchants houses, adorned here and there by ornate decorative flourishes, the district has a distinctly Dutch air about it.
This was indeed one of the great Hanseatic cities, and post-war conservators have done a marvellous job in recreating the splendour of old Gdansk (the claim that it is difficult to tell where new elements fuse with the old is often true)...

gdansk-life.com/poland/gdansk-guide
Salomon 2 | 436  
5 Jun 2009 /  #15
Not in commie style

Of course not ... but it is how Gdańsk downtown looked like after the war


Ironside 47 | 9,355  
6 Jun 2009 /  #16
Get back our land.

It continues to be beautiful and always will be. I love my city. :)

Your city ? I think you lie N as you have never lived there!
And buildings in Lwów are not properly maintained, a few more years and will be in ruins.

Most of the towns in the former German territories were destroyed and were rebuild, and most of the towns left in the lost polish territories were left almost intact by the war.

Whats more in the area of Wilno where still are Polish majority Lithuanian government refuses give back property - mostly land - to Poles, Lithuanians were given property back long time ago - bastards !
OP freebird 3 | 535  
6 Jun 2009 /  #17
Of course not ... but it is how Gdańsk downtown looked like after the war

yep and that's why thank you guys for restoring it to what it used to be before the WWII. Like I said, great job.

Most of the towns in the former German territories were destroyed and were rebuild, and most of the towns left in the lost polish territories were left almost intact by the war.

I can't talk about Lwow but "in the former German territories" you Polish did really a great job to bring it back to make it look like it used to

Whats more in the area of Wilno where still are Polish majority Lithuanian government refuses give back property - mostly land - to Poles, Lithuanians were given property back long time ago

I agree with you, if the properties used to belong to the Poles they should be given back to you just like anyone else claiming what used to be his before the WWII, doesn't matter who, Poles, Germans, Russians, Ukrainians etc. In the free World people should have the right to get back what rightfuly used to belong to them no matter where they're from.
Salomon 2 | 436  
6 Jun 2009 /  #18


yep and that's why thank you guys for restoring it to what it used to be before the WWII. Like I said, great job.

It has been build for Poles ...
yup ... don't forget expulsions of Poles from Gdańsk orgainsed by Germans in 19 century ...
don't forget expulsions of the Poles from there durring WWII...

Gdańsk became German by force ... and now is again Polish.

BTW Polish capital after the war :



Where are compensations ?

Polish capital Warszawa after the war:

Well ... modern Poland in big part is reconstruction.

Kraków is the most original city. At the end of the war Germans wanted to destroy it like Warszawa ... but they started to think about it a little bit to late...

Anny way it is how reconstruction of most Polish cites looked like that :

Odbudowa
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,702  
6 Jun 2009 /  #19
Where are compensations ?

The towns???

Why don't you found a party? Maybe people are now more open for negotiations as in...you give us that and we give you that...you know?

Gdańsk became German by force ... and now is again Polish.

Danzig became Polish by force you wanted to say, don't you?
Oh and there hadn't been forced ethnical cleansing of Poles in Danzig during the centuries of "bad" german rule...
Oh and without the treaty which gave you a country and new unfair borders all these towns would still stand in old glory!
Give the land and the towns back and we can talk about compensation...till then shut up or you will start to sound like the maniac screamer Crow...and you will get the same kind of attention!

You record seems to hang Luki, you repeat yourself again and again....time for another one!
Torq 26 | 2,362  
6 Jun 2009 /  #20
Poland of today is a better and stronger country than Poland
before WW2 because it is:

1. More homogeneous (ethnic Poles are 96.7% percent of the population,
about 90% Roman Catholic) so no tensions between nationalities or religions.

2. Stronger economy (less unemployment, higher standard of living).

3. Stronger military (even if you compare Wojsko Polskie and Wehrma... sorry...
... Bundeswehr of today - the gap in technology is much smaller than it was
in 1939).

4. In military alliance with its neighbours Germany, Czech Republic and Slovakia.

Generally, I believe that Poland has a huge potential and will gradually become
richer and stronger country. The only downsides that I see are the low birth-rate
and a significant part of political class without honour and moral spine.
*COUGHPOCOUGH*
sjam 2 | 541  
6 Jun 2009 /  #21
Where are compensations ?

Maybe you should be asking the Kremlin what happened to Poland's share of German reparations?

Although Poland did not receive compensation directly, under the 1945 Potsdam Agreement Poland was guaranteed a share in the Soviet Union's portion of reparations but Poland's former communist regime forfeited that right in 1953. Why did they do that?

And is it not the case the Polish and German governments agreed to formally drop any claims and counter claims from each other for war reparations in 2004— case closed I think!
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,702  
6 Jun 2009 /  #22
*COUGHPOCOUGH*

*borrows Torq his tissue* :)

What does the "Wojske" mean?
Torq 26 | 2,362  
6 Jun 2009 /  #23
What does the "Wojske" mean?

Wojsko - army/military
Wojsko Polskie - Polish Army
OP freebird 3 | 535  
6 Jun 2009 /  #24
yup ... don't forget expulsions of Poles from Gdańsk orgainsed by Germans in 19 century ...

what do you mean by that, Gdansk was build by the Poles?
I agree you did a great job on restoring it but if you're saying that the architecture of Gdansk (downtown) from the past centuries was Polish too then I have to strongly disagree with you. Anyone can easily find out on the internet who build most of the old buildings in Gdansk and I tell you, you won't find too many Poles there. Sorry, but it's just the way it is just like now Gdansk is a part of Poland.

Besides if you want, go to wilkipedia and find out about the population in this city before 1939. What is there to argue about?
I can understand if the count was 50-50 or even 40-60 but not when it was 95,5% Germans to 4,5% rest of Europe (not only Poles)

Maybe you should be asking the Kremlin what happened to Poland's share of German reparations?

great point there
Salomon 2 | 436  
6 Jun 2009 /  #25
freebird

Go throught other debates about it. Read about

Danzig became Polish by force you wanted to say

It is German map :



As to Polish Gdańsk citizens durring WWII : en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danzig-West_Prussia

Stutthof concentration camp, where over 85,000 died(mostly Poles).
Piaśnica, site of mass murder of around 12,000 local Polish-Kashub intelligentsia and other people

Additionally Germans expelled a number of Poles and Jews-the overall number of the German ethnic cleansing is estimated by the Stutthof Museum at 170.000 and located German colonists in their place.

So something is wrong with your stats...

Anny way Soviets and Germans durring fights destroyed alomost whole city (90%). Gdańsk as we know been build after 1945 by Poles. It has nothing to do with Germany or Germans.

Although Poland did not receive compensation directly, under the 1945 Potsdam Agreement Poland was guaranteed a share in the Soviet Union's portion of reparations but Poland's former communist regime forfeited that right in 1953. Why did they do that?

LOL - Germany invaded Poland with Soviets in 1939.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,702  
6 Jun 2009 /  #26
Ach Luki...you read what you want, don't you!
Be careful or people aren't going to take you seriously anymore!

/wiki/Danzig#The_inter-war_years.2C_and_World_War_II

...a 1919 census determined that the city's population was 98% German,[16]

Which word from "98 Percent" don't you understand???

Not much polish about Danzig:

Lukasz you are becoming boring! Like a broken record...

It has nothing to do with Germany or Germans.

Well...if you like it or not, Danzig downtown seems to be especially careful renovated in the old hanseatic style which made it once so beautiful!

I wonder why they didn't used "polish" style!

One if not THE most famous and most beautiful city of Poland looks so germanic it's really cute! :)

I'm sure Germans settling down again will feel quite at home there!
Thank you for that...:)
Salomon 2 | 436  
6 Jun 2009 /  #27
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danzig#The_inter-war_years.2C_and_World_W ar_II

This wikipedia link haven't been written by Poles or neutral person. As long as it uses adjective Pomeranian instead of Pole.

What is more it avoids this information :

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teutonic_takeover_of_Danzig

So this coty was Polish first. Later in many occasions Germans were murdering or expeling Poles from there... at the end they destroyd this city and were kicked by their Soviet ally ...

IT IS POLISH AGAIN - it has nothing to do with Germany. It has been build by Poles after 1945.

I'm sure Germans settling down again will feel quite at home there!Thank you for that...:)

Your demographics show much different settlement in your country ... :-)
sjam 2 | 541  
6 Jun 2009 /  #28
The Berlin (Potsdam) Conference, July 17-August 2, 1945
avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/decade17.asp

(a) Protocol of the Proceedings, August l, 1945

III. REPARATIONS FROM GERMANY.

1. Reparation claims of the U. S. S. R. shall be met by removals from the zone of Germany occupied by the U. S. S. R., and from appropriate German external assets.

2. The U. S. S. R. undertakes to settle the reparation claims of Poland from its own share of reparations.

IV. DISPOSAL OF THE GERMAN NAVY AND MERCHANT MARINE

(1) The German Merchant Marine, surrendered to the Three Powers and wherever located, shall be divided equally among the U. S. S. R., the U. K., and the U. S. A. The actual transfers of the ships to the respective countries shall take place as soon as practicable after the end of the war against Japan. The United Kingdom and the United States will provide out of their shares of the surrendered German merchant ships appropriate amounts for other Allied States whose merchant marines have suffered heavy losses in the common cause against Germany, except that the Soviet Union shall provide out of its share for Poland.

So Salomon, it seems quite clear Poland was to be paid compensation from the Soviet share of German reparations but as you are adamant that this did not happen, here are the Russian Presidential Office details at the Kremlin so you can find out what happened to Poland's compensation?

Russian Presidential office contact numbers are:
Contact telephone numbers: (495) 985-37-60, (495) 606-50-02.
Requests can be faxed to (495) 606-90-00 or (495) 606-73-77 until 5.00 p.m., 10 April

Letters can be sent to:
Presidential Executive Office
Ilinka Str, No 23
103132, Moscow, Russia.

Email the Kremlin
kremlin.ru/eng/articles/send_letter_Eng1a.shtml
Salomon 2 | 436  
6 Jun 2009 /  #29
The Berlin (Potsdam) Conference, July 17-August 2, 1945

I don't understand who gave for Soviets the right to take Polish compensation. Somebody gave money for wrong people. In my opinion Germany should pay for Poland and should debate with Russians about giving back money they wrongly gave them...

As to History: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov-Ribbentrop_Pact
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,702  
6 Jun 2009 /  #30
IT IS POLISH AGAIN - it has nothing to do with Germany. It has been build by Poles after 1945.

Hey...I never said differently!
It's you who are denying the german past of towns like Danzig and Breslau.
But alone looking at the long lists of the famous sons and daughters of these cities speak a clear language and show everybody what a loser you are!

(Did you ever wonder about the huge list of famous Germans and the relatively small list of polish famous ones in these towns???)
Did we just do more in less time??? :):):)

You renovated them and had the good instinct to rebuild the original german architecture...now they are pearls again...we thank you for that! :)

In my opinion Germany should pay for Poland and should debate with Russians about giving back money they wrongly gave them...

Oh we can talk about that..after you give the land and the towns back I'm sure we will find a compromise! :)
But your idea that you can get both will stay a pathetic joke of yours...:(

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