And you wonder why there is Anti-Polish feeling in the UK

Blatant strawman argument. No-one has made such a claim.


I'm questioning why you choose to believe half-baked conspiracy theories rather than evidence

Why do you believe half-baked conspiracy theories rather than evidence?


Personalised irrelevancy. You can't show any evidence that the documentary was unfair, so you drag up this stupid rubbish.


No, it's the other way round. The broadcast claimed racism and far right activity to be a problem in the countries concerned and backed up these claims with evidence. You couldn't counter with evidence, so you brought in conspiracy theory nonsense and personal disputes.

You lose, I'm afraid.


How can you claim a programme you haven't actually watched was 'sensationalised'. You haven't watched it, so therefore you don't know.


Right.


In that case, they do get reported, then. And how would you know about the ones that don't get reported?


That's anecdotal evidence then.


He may, good Sir, be an unmitigated bounder, blaggard and cad, who need be taken to the gates of my club and horse-whipped without mercy for his ruffianly, uncouth behaviour and ungentlemanly conduct.


Forsooth, this matter may be beyond the wit and wisdom of a humble gentleman such as my good self.

Because I've seen the fragment when Sol Cambell spoke. That's enough to sensationalise it and if his opinion (opinion, not a fact!) wasn't counterbalanced by another opinion then it made it also unbalanced.

I've read people had tickets paid already, etc. and started wondering whether it's safe for foreigners to come to Ukraine, for example.
I haven't seen the programme so I'm wondering - were there any black football players playing in Poland interviewed?
Why was Sol Cambell asked an opinion at all? Was he ever in Poland?


Wow... OK...

So according to you:

- allowing Poland and Ukraine to host Euro 2012 was a mistake?
- we Poles are unworthy of hosting such tournaments?
- families should stay out of Poland and Ukraine, because if they don't they'll "come back in a coffin"?
- Poles and Ukrainians didn't "deserve" this prestigious tournament in their countries?

Is that what you think?


On BBC, don't know about the tabloids though.


From people? Like Lenka's friend and goofy, I guess.


So?

I can understand why there is anti polish feeling in Britain, though I think it's a bad thing.
I live in mid wales in a small town with a very large polish population. I can understand why the Poles came here, there were plenty of jobs. To be honest there are loads of Welsh who are on 'incapacity benefit' who could have done these jobs themselves but won't so you can't really blame employers for employing poles.

The problem is that most of the poles just won't make the effort to be friendly or try and integrate.
There is a lovely polish woman in the lab at our factory she will chat and she's learned English, the team leader and his wife are friendly too but most of the others won't even say good morning, either language.

The women seem to see any female under 70 as a threat or competition and the men just ignore us unless they are forced to speak because of work.

being a small town most people say hello to each other or even to strangers and we find it quite rude to ignore people.
Also lots of Poles get together on the canal and get drunk, this can be quite scary for older people and
women. It's the same in the local night club, the women are hostile to the local girls especially if they are pretty, it's not like there is a shortage of Welsh or Polish men in the area, quite the opposite.

I know the British can be very badly behaved abroad too but at least people are shot of them after a few weeks.
We have quite a large romany and traveler population too, we get on pretty well with them but the poles are quite rude to them and the several asians we have, we don't need that.

I know it's scary in a new country and they work hard but both sides need to make an effort.
My step mum is slovakian and all the welsh and the gypsy community love her because right from when she came here 15 years ago she was polite and friendly to people, so I don't think it's just us who are at fault.

Nobody minds much that the Poles work here, no even the benefit bums( it gives them an excuse not to work) but it's sad that there is so little real mixing among the communities and I think some of the bame is Polish.

Ifor for the umpteenth time, the BBC has a duty to be impartial, using Campbell's opinion reinforced their suggestion that football hooligans are some how typical of Poland and Ukraine as a whole. That was clearly wrong, it's not a question of censoring Campbell it's a question of impartiality. The BBC chose to broadcast his opinion thus adding weight to it and didn't offer a contrary opinion. That is biased and sensationalist.

It doesn't mean that State broadcasters must not broadcast strong opinions it means that the editorial procedures need improved.

The very definition of prejudice is attributing particular behaviour onto a whole group that is what the BBC did.

There is no conspiracy theory, I have patiently explained the errors the BBC made and the point about the FA and the Euros was an aside as I made clear when I posted them. If you cannot understand that or understand what an editorial process is I cannot help you.

In that case you don't know the context, which is very important. Why don't you just watch the whole bloody documentary as it interests you so much, then you can give an informed opinion.


You asked me 'right' or 'wrong', you didn't ask me for a nuanced answer. Therefore, all you got was whether I (generally) agreed or disagreed.

I think non-white people should steer clear of football tournaments (in Poland and particularly Ukraine) for the foreseeable future for their own safety. It's pretty unlikely they would get killed, but there is a fair chance of their getting beaten.

And, so long as this is the case, then no, the countries concerned should not hold major international sporting events.


It can't be proved or disproved.

The context is that they pointed a camera at hooligans who behaved like hooligans then asked Campbell his opinion. This guy is a footballer who said don't go to Poland etc.

How was he qualified to make a pronouncement on either country? He was used as a mouthpiece for the film makers, now his opinion is that Britain is racist but that now is a worthless opinion.

That sounds strange, to be honest. Do they know English? Maybe they think they don't know English enough to chat? Some of them probably don't know English at all, I can imagine. People are often embarrassed when they have to speak a foreign language, especially if they aren't good at it. I remember my first conversation with a native speaker who was going to be my teacher - it was a sheer torture for me ;)

Btw, what do you mean by "ignore"? You talk to them and they don't talk back and go away or sth?


That's what happens when there's a large number of immigrants of one nationality in one place, I'm afraid. If there were fewer of them they would have to intergrate because they would have no other choice but in your case they don't have to. It's easier and more comfortable to keep to your own people who share the language, culture, etc.

How long have those Poles been in your town?

I agree completely that both sides have to make an effort, but I'm afraid in such situation you guys will have to probably make the effort, if you want to, of course.

Try to make the first move, make friends, show them they're welcome in your town (unless they aren't, of course lol) and your equals (I don't know those Poles, but that may be a problem - an inferiority complex).

When I was younger my mum would invite the English and Japanese guys who worked with her here in Kielce for lunch and dinner to our house, I also drew portraits of two Japanese guys and the daughters of one of them and they would bring me presents from Japan. It was nice.

Maybe try such gestures?

Your problem with this being?


He was shown footage of Asians being racially assaulted in football stadiums for no reason other than that they were Asian. You don't need either a law degree or in-depth knowledge of Eastern Europe to form an opinion on racial assaults. They are wrong, shouldn't happen, and if a country allows them to happen then the country concerned should not hold major football tournaments.


Have I or anyone else expressed my opinion that his opinion is 'worthless' on this matter? This is just your own, personal, strawman argument. You are a useless poster, Barney.

The BBC broadcast footage of hooligans doing hooligan stuff then dragged a totally unqualified figure to comment. He said don't go to Poland or Ukraine. That is not the makings of a balanced programme, it was a sensationalist piece of lazy journalism. Attributing such negative behaviour as typical of the countries was demonstrated for the nonsense it was. Campbell had no grounds to make those claims at all.

There is no conspiracy, the English FA would love to have the Euros but they need to build political support. You clearly have no idea how these things work, it's not good enough to turn up and say "we invented football". As I said when I posted it was an aside.

If you believe that Campbell is somehow an expert on Polish or Ukranian affairs can you state why you believe his opinion as broadcast by the BBC and dismiss his current opinion of Britain?

It does seem that you don't understand what prejudice is, attributing actions/ behaviour of a few to a group as a whole, the BBC did it to Polish And Ukranian people.

It's not a personal attack just a statement of fact.

Do You accept that Campbell is correct in his opinion of Britain because I don't? You clearly think that he is qualified to comment on other matters and I don't.

And you are qualified, I suppose.


He wasn't talking about the population as a whole. He was talking about football fans. Hopeless, strawman argument yet again, Barney.

He had plenty of grounds. Namely racial assault, and lack of police interest and protection for the victims. Which apparently doesn't concern you at all.


There was a conspiracy. No there wasn't. I said it. No, I didn't. I only said it as an aside etc, etc.

What are you trying to prove? You make an accusation, then backtrack from it.

You don't know whether you are coming or going.


I've never stated he was an 'expert', so strawman argument (again). I've asked why you imagine yourself to be an expert, but have received no reply. Have you been to any football matches in Poland? (I've been to a couple of hundred btw). I haven't 'dismissed' his opinion.

Anyway as all you have to contribute are strawman arguments, conspiracy theories that you subsequently deny having made, and irrelevant personal arguments from months ago, I think we'll draw the conversation to a close.

Please have the last word which you clearly crave.

I'm convinced that you are totally in denial about what you typed, you spent several posts accusing me of being anti British for no reason except that I am Irish. And you have form on that point

I'm qualified to give my opinion which is that the BBC broadcast a biased piece and I have repeatedly pointed out how it was biased. You clearly have difficulty understanding that the program broadcast said one thing and an other different thing happened. The program was not about local football it was about an international tournament.

I am now of the firm opinion that you are not the sharpest tool in the box.

Why would you have to live in Poland to have an opinion about something that's going on in Poland, or any other country for that matter?

You don't have to. But when you never have, and have never once experienced the thing about which one is opining, one might wish to defer to the people who actually do know what they are talking about, even if such people are British.

Well, what about history-related questions then? Hardly anyone on PF was alive during WW2, but we still have numerous "experts" who will tell you that you have to be Polish to understand and have an opinion about Polish history. Can of worms in my eyes.

Then one has a variety of sources available. It's not a good idea to give info written by people who were never there and never saw what they're writing about more weight than info written by people who were there and saw it many times.

We know where we all stand

Co k***a???

Panovie, Panovie

i don`t know why Poles tolerate, Anti-Polish feeling in the UK

And what was the context that would justify Sol Cambell saying that Poland is unworthy and it doesn't deserve to organise a football tournament? That families shouldn't go there because they'll end up in a coffin?

He wasn't just saying "During a football tournament with possibly some ultras around, it would be wise to be cautious since Poland and Ukraine have still problems with those people. Maybe it would be even better for non-white people to not go to Euro 2012 at all.".

Instead he made it look like Polish and Ukrainian people in general are somehow unworthy to organise such tournament, that they don't "deserve" it. What an arrogant and f*cked up way of thinking is this?


I will watch it probably some day, if I find the whole thing, but I don't see how any context would help here.
Barney is right, Sol Cambell in this fragment looks like a tube conveying the point that those that made that programme apparently wanted to make - Poland and Ukraine didn't deserve the Euro and people shouldn't go there o_O

And they succeeded apparently. I remember that I've read somewhere that even The Football Association in England complained about that programme, they said it scared off supporters of the English team.

Poland and Ukraine aren't some f*cked up apartheid regimes to say such things.

And I'm going to repeat the questions you haven't answered yet:
- Were there any black football players playing in Poland interviewed?
- Why was Sol Cambell asked an opinion at all? Was he ever in Poland?


Major international sporting events? You mean not only football, but the rest too? lol
I was at European Figure Skating Championships in Warsaw, there were figure skating fans from all over the world, even from Japan and it was great, I had great time and there were no problems at all.

And I disagree with you.
Giving the Euro to Poland was a great idea. Poland is one of the most monoethnic or even the most monoethnic society in Europe. It was an opportunity for Poland to open up to people of different nationalities and cultures, opportunity to experience their presence, talk to them and enjoy it, because a sporting even is a fun event. I've seen comments of Poles on the Polish internet, people from Poznań, for example, completely fell in love with the Irish. Of course it was a temporary thing, but I think that was a positive experience and it's possible it opened up people a bit. I don't mean the hooligans, but normal people. I think Poland needed that. Probably more than Ukraine, because Ukraine is pretty mulitcultural by Polish standards (or so I've heard).

I don't think making a wall around Poland and saying "don't go there" won't help this country to become more tolerant.


Just like many things that expats and British people in the UK write here on this forum. But once goofy shows up we can ask him where he lives exactly and check if that attack on Polish shop was reported.


*will, sorry

What arrogant and f**cked up way of thinking to continually comment on a programme you have never even seen.

Regarding quoting someone, context is everything, and you have no idea concerning the context in which the remarks were made.


Because you can prove just about anything about just about anyone by quoting them out of context.


But you don't know this, because you haven't watched the programme.

Why don't you go and write some film reviews of movies you haven't seen? Or holiday reviews of places you haven't visited? Or work as an art critic reviewing paintings of artists whose paintings you've never ever set eyes on?


If these supporters were black or Asian, then rightly so.


But the programme never said they were. But you have no idea what the content of the programme was, because you haven't watched it.


I believe they were. From what I remember, a black Legia Warszawa player was interviewed. He stated that it wasn't safe for black people to go into the stadium.


Because he was a black England player. His opinion was therefore relevant. Why should he have to go somewhere where his family wouldn't be safe watching him?


I believe he'd played an international match in Poland.


I was at the Tall Ships' Race in Szczecin. The Mexican crew in the tall ships' race got badly beaten when they went from Szczecin to Gdynia.

So, yes, I do mean all sporting events.

If the Polish authorities cannot guarantee the safety of competitors at such events, then Poland shouldn't have the right to hold such competitions.


And I remember the Tall Ships Race in Szczecin. And I remember how everyone loved the Mexican crew (they were the favourites in Szczecin). And I remember the facebook page 'Nie przepraszamy nożników Meksykanie' that quickly gained 5k likes. Don't worry Paulina, I have a long memory, and won't forget all this.

What I don't think will make the country more tolerant is pretending the thugs and far right in the stadiums don't exist (they do) and if a foreign broadcasting organisation tells the truth about this (and it was the truth) to stick a blindfold over your eyes and your fingers in your ears and scream:

IT'S NOT TRUE !!!!!

I'm very much afraid, Paulina, it is true.


I don't believe anecdotal 'man in the pub' stories whether they come from Poles, or from Harry, simply because they can't be proved one way or the other.

If you haven't noticed I comment mainly on what Sol Cambell said.


What was the context then?


What context, ifor? I know what the programme was all about, I know what problems there are with football hooligans, I read Polish newspapers and watch Polish TV. So what kind of context would change my mind about what Sol Camblell said?

His comment was over the line. I suspect his comment was one of the main reasons why all that $hitstorm ensued.

Ifor, ffs, what me watching the programme would change anything? Are you saying there were people on that programme saying "Go to Euro 2012, it won't be that bad as some people say it will"? lol


Not only black or Asian, some journalist was aksed by her foreign friends is it safe to go to Ukraine for foreigners in general, for example, so I can imagine many people simply got scared.


So they were or they weren't?


You "believe"? What were his experiences?


Sure, ifor, now I guess we should make a programme about Polish shops being destroyed in the UK, we will get goofy (or even better - me, since I don't live in the UK) in it and he will say "don't open Polish shops in the UK or they will be destroyed!" After all, I gave you an example of a reported case of a Polish shop targeted by far right. If the British authorities cannot guarantee the safety of Polish shops then there should be no Polish shops in the UK and the UK shouldn't have the right to call itself a tolerant country.

As you wrote yourself when I wrote about a Polish shop attacked: "Bad things happen everywhere.", right?

Ifor, I'm not pretending the thugs and far right in the stadiums don't exist, everyone knows about them and everyone complains about them (yes, Poles complain about them, did you know?).

As I wrtote at least two times already, I haven't seen the programme, yes, I've heard it's unbalanced, etc., also from a very normal, educated, liberal, travelled, successful Polish guy who's a great fan of football and goes to matches with his sons (he lives in Warsaw).

But I haven't seen the programme and so I'm commenting mainly on what Sol Cambell said.
Why?
Because if a former player of English national team says such things and they aren't countered in any way in that programme than that's all you need - everyone will believe such an authority and noone will have any second thoughts on the subject.

And since it was only his opinion, for the programme to be balanced there should be some other opinion too. You may not agree with such an opinion, just as I don't agree with Cambell's, but there should be one. Was there?

A programme you haven't watched.


A programme you haven't watched.


No, it wasn't. But you wouldn't know that because you haven't watched the programme.


Yes, some of the players didn't bring their families because they were scared off by violence. Or so it was stated in a programme you haven't seen.


You'd be able to provide an informed opinion on it.

Personally, I wouldn't judge a programme good or bad without watching it for myself.


You keep asking me questions, and I simply reply to the best of my knowledge. I am not Sol Campbell's biographer. As far as I remember, England played in Poland during the time Sol Campbell was England captain. I write, "I believe" because I don't know for certain, and therefore might be wrong.

I don't know what his experiences were. I am not a member of his family or close friend. I can tell you what my experiences are, but not his.


If someone made a programme about Polish shops being destroyed in England, then I would watch the programme and then comment.

I wouldn't condemn the programme without ever having seen it, or at least I hope I wouldn't.


Good, so you should welcome the fact that someone highlighted this problem, then.


But non-Poles presumably can't?


That's his opinion, which of course, he's entitled to, as am I, as is Sol Campbell, as are you. But I'd say our opinions are more valid than yours because we've seen a programme and then commented on it, rather than merely commented on something we haven't actually seen.

A number of people were interviewed. So why don't you stop asking me questions, and watch the film for yourself!

Just on a point of factual accuracy the programme could not have stated that, It was broadcast before the tournament.

I watched the programme (again) last night.

The families of two black England players had stated that they wouldn't be going.

youtube.com/watch?v=tbZGWHITWxk
youtube.com/watch?v=_EcN4qszVEU
youtube.com/watch?v=9ge2scFBsNU

The whole programme can be viewed here: dailymotion.com/video/xrhwps_bbc-panorama-stadiums-of-hate-euro-2012_sport

One of those interviewed for this broadcast released a statement


From [economist]

This broadcast was a disgrace painting Polish people as racist, how it came to be broadcast is a mystery to me.

Yes I have and I have to say that Paulina is correct in her opinion of it.
The show was biased

Being able to self criticise is important to a normal person that is why I find it strange that the xenophobic stuff was posted cos I don't do xenophobia ever.

But you can't point to any inaccuracies it it. As a matter of fact, you haven't even tried.

Try the link above and a brief internet search plus have a bit of critical nous

It didn't 'paint the Polish people as racist', only some of their football fans. Which, of course, they are.