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Shocking! Test standards in Polish schools.


OP Stu 12 | 522
29 Jan 2012 #122
oh, my - don't envy you - cleaners and painters don't speak much English - not enough to be able to provide instrunctions and advice to customers in computer field

That would be no problem, gumishu! They'd only have to read through a script and that's it. That's why I said ... I'd rather have someone with no (relevant) education, but who actually lived in England or Ireland for some years, than some over-qualified university guy, who doesn't speak the language and who will be bored out of his wits very soon.
a.k.
29 Jan 2012 #123
Well...I think it is possible for a 13 year old to learn basic differential and integral calculus.

Is it possible to understand it too? I know that someone can learn an algorythm of solving a math task without having a slightest idea of what he is doing.

non-school qualifications

that is?
EM_Wave 9 | 311
29 Jan 2012 #124
Is it possible to understand it too?

Probably not too many would. Then again, many college students get good grades in their calculus courses by solving problems but not actually understanding what they are doing.
gumishu 11 | 5,761
29 Jan 2012 #125
When I was 12, I learned limits and basic derivatives. I'm pretty good at math but I'm not a genius.

I must say they used to push kids quite a bit in Anglophone world - I am not sure I have heard the word limit before the age of 15

When I was 12, I learned limits and basic derivatives. I'm pretty good at math but I'm not a genius.

I must say they used to push kids quite a bit in Anglophone world - I am not sure I have heard the word limit before the age of 15

They'd only have to read through a script and that's it.

so that's how it works? - no intelectual input on the side of the helpdesk operator? - just reading through some yes/no scripted diagram? :P
a.k.
29 Jan 2012 #126
.one that I hesitate to attempt answering at the risk of sounding like a crazed Daily Mail journalist or a stoned conspiracy theorist.....

But it's quite suprising that in many countries (or maybe all) standards of education has dropped and I see that at least in Polish case it was triggered off by the ministers tinkering in it.
Wroclaw 44 | 5,384
29 Jan 2012 #127
that is?

for example, ONC or HNC. mine are trade qualifications, but they would get me into university.

many work related exams will give access to university.

people like my mum did A levels for a hobby so she had no problem getting into uni. even though she was retired at the time.
rozumiemnic 8 | 3,846
29 Jan 2012 #128
Sidliste_Chodov: non-school qualifications

that is?

or Open University foundation courses which is how I blagged my way in to uni.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,161
30 Jan 2012 #129
Personal and career growth/and because is a good company. I would steel down in Wroclaw. Completed additional course, promote higher position.

Sorry but I don't buy it. What are the chances that a person write words such as leader, team or upgrade without mistakes but can't spell "family" correctly ? No one is saying here that Poles are excellent at foreign languages, no need to make up stuff to "prove" that it isn't so... Besides, when did you conduct that experiment ? On Sunday :)) ? You "expats" should improve your logical thinking skills before you criticize anyone...

Well...I think it is possible for a 13 year old to learn basic differential and integral calculus.

It is possible but doesn't make sense at all. 13 yo kids will have no clue how to use it anyway.

When I was 12, I learned limits and basic derivatives.

Fascinating.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,455
30 Jan 2012 #130
It's all about the papers Stu! They've got a paper that says they can do something, so obviously they can do it...
rozumiemnic 8 | 3,846
30 Jan 2012 #131
Sorry but I don't buy it. What are the chances that a person write words such as leader, team or upgrade without mistakes but can't spell "family" correctly

you have a point there...these do not sound like 'normal' errors..for example too many indefinite articles..besides, Stu, you said you were after people with spoken language skills, which is quite different. Why not advertise directly for the people with the skills you need?
OP Stu 12 | 522
30 Jan 2012 #132
Sorry but I don't buy it

Want me to send you photocopies, boy? No smartass, I did it on Friday. Unlike you, I have a social life and I can't be bothered to post on PF every day. Man ... some people ... :S:S:S:S

Why not advertise directly for the people with the skills you need?

Because, rozumiemnic ... I am not involved in the hiring process. In the morning, I asked around why they hire people with university degrees and not people with language skills. "Ahh ... it is very simple", I was told. "The salary of people who are highly educated and are out of a job are being largely paid by the EU and not by <my company>". So there we have the problem, don't we? A company is trying to save a few bucks on salaries, they ask for a grant from the EU, they hire highly qualified people, who are -unfortunately- unsuitable to do the job.
JonnyM 11 | 2,620
30 Jan 2012 #133
What are the chances that a person write words such as leader, team or upgrade without mistakes but can't spell "family" correctly

Pretty normal really, Millions round the world.know words like software, download, router etc but don't know how to spell cat.

Stu, you said you were after people with spoken language skills, which is quite different. Why not advertise directly for the people with the skills you need?

Or give them regular workplace lessons - less expensive nowadays than you think and tax deductible!
delphiandomine 88 | 18,455
30 Jan 2012 #134
Or give them regular workplace lessons - less expensive nowadays than you think and tax deductible!

True - I know one company that hired a good, reliable Polish teacher for roughly 3000zl a month (the cost to them) - the appeal of umowa o prace for an English teaching job that isn't in a public school is very appealing.

Beats me why more companies don't simply hire one or tw o in-house teachers rather than relying on language schools, actually.
hythorn 3 | 580
30 Jan 2012 #135
Beats me why more companies don't simply hire one or tw o in-house teachers rather than relying on language schools, actually.

particularly when Poland is full of English teachers who would give their right arm not to work as English teachers

many graduates of English do not want to be doomed to have to spend the rest of their lives regurgitating last year's lessons in a state school

and would be very happy to man the photocopier, proof read sales materials and tidy up their colleagues English emails. This is the
first rung on the ladder to being a junior project manager or marketing assistant
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,161
30 Jan 2012 #136
Want me to send you photocopies, boy?

Yes please, expat...

No smartass, I did it on Friday. Unlike you, I have a social life and I can't be bothered to post on PF every day. Man ... some people ... :S:S:S:S

These expats...

"The salary of people who are highly educated and are out of a job are being largely paid by the EU and not by <my company>". So there we have the problem, don't we? A company is trying to save a few bucks on salaries, they ask for a grant from the EU, they hire highly qualified people, who are -unfortunately- unsuitable to do the job.

Interesting... what kind of grant is that ?

Anyway, Poles are far from perfect in case of foreign languages but still there are far more people fluent in English than number of jobs where speaking English is really essencial... so, the problem is on your company... you expect people here to fix it ?
rozumiemnic 8 | 3,846
30 Jan 2012 #137
. I am not involved in the hiring process.

but it's your own business? Odd.
OP Stu 12 | 522
30 Jan 2012 #138
so, the problem is on your company... you expect people here to fix it ?

Probably you don't understand English very well yourself. Never in my posts have I even hinted at the fact that PF'ers can solve my problem, am I right? I have just been describing a situation. And the fact that I am looking for people with English skills might hint at the fact that speaking English in this position is kind of important ... ? Just a guess ... :S

but it's your own business? Odd.

No rozumienic, it's not my own company. I wrote <my company> cause I don't want to spell the name here. Although quite a few people know which company I am talking about.
Harry
30 Jan 2012 #139
What are the chances that a person write words such as leader, team or upgrade without mistakes but can't spell "family" correctly ?

Quite high, given that they would most probably use words such as 'leader', 'team' and 'upgrade' in their work but not the word 'family'.

you have a point there...these do not sound like 'normal' errors..for example too many indefinite articles..

There are only two indefinite articles in the quote!
delphiandomine 88 | 18,455
30 Jan 2012 #140
Although quite a few people know which company I am talking about.

Hardly surprises me to be honest - and confirms my feelings that these companies are only in Wroclaw with the help of some massive grants.

As for you, Grzegorz - I see the sour grapes are still...sour with you.
rozumiemnic 8 | 3,846
30 Jan 2012 #141
There are only two indefinite articles in the quote!

I thought I counted 4 but there ya go.
Anyway..more to the point.....if Stu's company wants people to talk on the phone why is he complaining about their written English?
OP Stu 12 | 522
30 Jan 2012 #142
why is he complaining about their written English?

Well ... maybe because they have to write something in ticketing systems ... ? And it should be understandable for their colleagues ... . And for me ... .

Maybe they have to respond to the customer by email?

Just a few ideas ... .
rozumiemnic 8 | 3,846
30 Jan 2012 #143
Just a few ideas ...

Oh OK I see, fair enough.
Maybe advertise for someone with FCE, as well as a degree, they must exist....
Matura test for English seems a bit low for this kind of thing it is true. But then isn't it only equivalent to GCSE? Or will that start another debate?

I wonder how well a British kid with GCSE French say, could do.
No doubt that school test standards are not great anywhere.
teflcat 5 | 1,032
30 Jan 2012 #144
Maybe advertise for someone with FCE?

I'd suggest CAE. Although FCE is a great all-round intermediate level exam, the speaking element doesn't require much for a pass. If Stu insists on a B or an A at CAE, he can be pretty sure he'll get someone who can answer the phone and write e-mails.
a.k.
30 Jan 2012 #145
Maybe advertise for someone with FCE, as well as a degree, they must exist....

More adequate CPE or at least CAE.

Matura test for English seems a bit low for this kind of thing it is true. But then isn't it only equivalent to GCSE? Or will that start another debate?

I'm sorry to tell you that but egzamin gimnazjalny (Stu's wife is checking it) is the equivalent of GCSE. Matura would be the "equivalent" of A-levels but take into account that Matura is devided into two levels: basic and extended. Basic is indeed basic :)
Lyzko
30 Jan 2012 #146
Just a quick observation here, guys! Standardized testing, whether it be for English, foreign lang., math, science etc.. rarely measure true ability, but merely rote memorization of fromulae. Plenty of people can learn a foreign language without relying on outmoded and repetitive examinations, often designed by bureaucrats, NOT teachers.
a.k.
30 Jan 2012 #147
but merely rote memorization of fromulae.

In the case of languages rote learning is good.
Lyzko
30 Jan 2012 #148
But not mind-numbing drill, a.k.! The latter simply stresses repetition, once again, instead of functional ability in non-scholastic situations, e.g. going to the store, an unexpected encounter/altercation on the street etc....
teflcat 5 | 1,032
30 Jan 2012 #149
altercation on the street etc....

Can I sit in when you teach this next time? Sounds like fun.
a.k.
30 Jan 2012 #150
e.g. going to the store, an unexpected encounter/altercation on the street etc....

But that's how exactly Polish Nowa Matura exam looks like now. Especially spoken part when you get role playing tasks.

altercation

On matura it's called "negotiations" ;)


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