Shocking! Test standards in Polish schools.

I'm not sure if you've understood what I've written. Are you arguing with me or agreeing?

The consensus of linguists:

for infants, all spoken languages are equally easy/hard to learn, all infants learn to speak at the same rate (differences are greater between infants speaking the same language than between groups of infants speaking different languages).

once a person has acquired their native language(s) then other languages are more or less difficult based on several factors, including similarity to the person's native language, Polish is easier for Russian speakers than for English speakers, English is easier for Norwegians than for Poles.

writing is another matter and some writing systems (Finnish, Spanish,) are much easier to learn than others (English, Chinese).

getting back to the original topic, the standards aren't very impressive but it's what you get when you expect millions of people to learn a foreign language very different from their own, with minimal exposure and not that much real, concrete motivation.

I'm not trying to imply there is some relation. I'm just saying, Finns are a bright bunch in general. When I was in Helsinki, all the Finns I met spoke English fluently. No European country I've been in compares to Finland.

Now, name all Finn's inventions! ;-)


It's impossible, Sid. Not fractions, integrals! (you know the long S like sign, opposition to differentiation)


What about rejonizacja (English equivalent?). Are you sure all pupils have a choice?

Catchment area/s.

Thank you :)

Btw Wroclaw is it true what Sidliste said that in the past integrals were taught to 13-years-olds or he was just pulling our legs?

you are asking the wrong person. when i had a maths lesson i could only be found behind the bike sheds with an embassy regal or number 6 hanging out my mouth.

my brother went to proper school (grammar school) so he probably did them. if u can find them/or not in a 1970's O level paper, you'll have your answer.

Sure enough, Finland (Suomii) scored highest among the Europeans, according to PISA!

Yet, FInnish (a language with which I have a great deal of structural familiarity) is scarcely more challenging than Hungarian, Icelandic or Polish:-) Furthermore, those thirty-odd cases are barely used in daily life by the bulk of the population, much, I'm told, like the majority of Mandarin characters; mostly only native scholars know half the really complicated stuff.

Finland DOES have traditionally an outstanding school system, that's true. Unfortunately, this doesn't usually apply to English. The Finns I know still prefer Swedish with foreigners than English.

you just happen to know the older generation Lyzko

Younger ones too! I know a thirty-something fellow employed at the Finnish Consulate near where we live and his English is allright, but his Swedish sounds damned near native. He even admits it. There are exceptions though, you may be right.

well, Lyzko, maybe he simply is a Swedish person - there is a strong Swedish minority in western Finland but I guess you are aware of it - I believe most of these people are bilingual (Swedish and Finnish)

I know exactly what I meant, and what they are used for, thank you very much!


What would I achieve by lying? I suspect that I'm quite a bit older than Wroclaw anyway ;)

I left school a long time ago, so I took "O" Levels and not GCSEs - everyone knows that standards have fallen since those were introduced. In my first year of Grammar school (actually a comprehensive by this point, but they kept the title, lol), I was 13-14, and we were introduced to both differential and integral calculus.

My last Polish girlfriend's son was approaching 15, and I was asked to help with his homework, because he was struggling with basic geometry (things we learned before we were 13 back in those days). I asked her about Poland's allegedly "better" educational system, and it appeared from their responses that Poland isn't quite as superior to our system as some may claim. I thought it was laughable that a lad who was less than 18 months from leaving school was still unable to do basic geometry and algebra, but that's the way it was!

Sorry there, gumishu! The chap's a Finn through and through, not like Sibelius.... but actually mostly Finnish and partly Lapp.

Sidliste - I seriously doubt what you reminescence about is true - to be able to know what integrals are you first need to know what differentials are - and to be able to understand differentials you need to know what limit (limes) is - I doubt they teach (or taught) 12 year olds about limits in Britain (it takes time to master limits then differentials before you get to integrals) - oh and you need to actually know what mathematical function is - I think my first serious encounter with functions was in my 6th grade which is normally for 13 year olds in Poland

I think it's beyond comprehension of a regular 13-year-old, so definitely he was pulling our legs, unless he was attending some classes for mathematically gifted children (you know those with IQs above 130).

Are you going to point out what is wrong with what you quoted because I can't see any error. Providing she has more than one kid, that is.

this might help some folk. it's not just maths. there are other subjects too: bbc.co.uk/schools/gcsebitesize/maths/

I think that because of internet and TV children have a lot more trouble with working with abstract ideas - I am not up-to-date with current day teaching programmes but I hardly believe that basic geometry is not taught in grades 4 through 7 - now the quality of present day teaching (on average) may be a factor too - the discipline issues may affect the quality of teaching (it's all interconected it looks) (there were mostly no discipline issues back then when I was in elementary school)

Excuse me sir, I will believe you only if I see it on my own eyes. Please feel free to show me a proof of that. Let it be a picture of a book or any reference that might proof your statements.


What's to laugh about that? That's how curriculums look like now. Differentiation is in 2 class of high school (17-18 year olds).


Are you 70?!

i doubt he is pulling your leg. he went to the same type of school as my brother and did similar exams. my brother is bright. he had his o levels done and dusted when he was fifteen. grammar school was a tough place. latin and i think greek, for example, were on the regular timetable. it was very different back then. and worst of all they played rugby, not footie.

actually I think todays' children have a lot trouble with simply focusing on abstarct things

I think he might just mixed it all up. He probably learnt it for his A-levels and now just doesn't remember correctly. It happens that we think we did something in early childhood and then confronting the memory with our parents it turns out that it was much later than we thought.


I would believe he learnt integrals at 15 but not earlier.


Todays children have a lot trouble with focusing in general.

Well, I was in the top class throughout my time at that school, and we were worked much harder than the lowest groups, so it's a possibility.


Spot on. I suspect that a few of the respondents on this thread simply can't believe that the British educational system had such high standards at one time. Latin and Greek were optional subjects at my school (I took them, but didn't sit the exam in the end).


How am I supposed to provide evidence from textbooks I haven't owned for over 25 years?


Wrong. I left school at 16, so I did not take any "A" levels; I went into higher education later on, after gaining other qualifications after leaving school. I learned most of my mathematics at "O" Level (the exam was taken at 16).


No. Well under 50 but over 40. We're not all a few years out of school on here. You clearly did not go to school in the UK, so don't try and claim that I'm lying - I know what I was taught, and when.

lolz, thanks!! I was waiting for someone to question that apostrophe..they are twins ..;)


I had to check what those were...they did look vaguely familiar... but then I was kicked out of top maths set at an early age. Once upon a time standards in UK schools were much higher...which is why I was 'banging on' about today's 'literacy' lessons.

I'm not saying you're lying. I just don't think it's possible in such an early age to learn integrals. But ok, if you say so.

One more question - do you in grammar school were choosing subjects you want to learn or the curriculum was fixed?


A-levels is not a must to apply for a University?


I believe it had high standards. I just didn't know that such high high standards :)


So who ruined the standards and what for?
In Poland it was the same. I mean, kids were ok but they reformed the education to make kids learn less and less... why?

Right ... because I got some flak from people and because some of you didn't believe me, I decided to do an experiment at work. I welcomed two dozen new "recruits" and I decided to have them write a couple of sentences about where they saw themselves in two years time. Here are some of the results:

Person A - In 2 years i waan be a leader of my team and upgrade my experiens for Windows serwer familii and unix
Person B - After 2 years I wuld be like be Aministrator Windows of Second or third line
Person C - In next two years top quality manager will be good i think, buy requires a lot of work to do (and earn some knowledge)

Persom D - when i study i create which other student a network project, programs, datebase. I hose <company> because is My opportunity to learn new skills. Personal and career growth/and because is a good company. I would steel down in Wroclaw. Completed additional course, promote higher position.

I can go on and on. Now these guys ALL went to University. They are about 24, 25 years old. They did their matura.

Now there are two possibilities: either all of these guys are a bay leaf short of a bouquet garni or there actually IS something wrong with the matura exam over here.

And there is something wrong with the hiring process as well: I need these people as first liners on a helpdesk. They will HAVE to speak English. Now, why did they send me university graduated people who barely speak English and not a couple of cleaners, painters, builders, etc ... etc ... who spent a couple of years in England or Ireland or where ever, but who actually speak the language? But maybe that's a subject for another thread ... :(.

Well...I think it is possible for a 13 year old to learn basic differential and integral calculus. When I was 12, I learned limits and basic derivatives. I'm pretty good at math but I'm not a genius.

There was a compulsory basic curriculum which everyone had to take (Mathematics, English Language, etc), but some subject groups (e.g. languages) were optional.


If you apply straight from school, then they are essential. However, there are many non-school qualifications which (if I remember correctly) are equivalent to at least one or two "A" Levels each - I have three such qualifications, and they got me into university later on. I can easily meet any university entry requirements.


Things may have changed since then. And, as I mentioned before, I was in the highest and toughest group for three years. The kids in the bottom group probably never even learned how to spell "differentials", never mind how to use them ;)

oh, my - don't envy you - cleaners and painters don't speak much English - not enough to be able to provide instructions and advice to customers in computer field

uff that is some question......one that I hesitate to attempt answering at the risk of sounding like a crazed Daily Mail journalist or a stoned conspiracy theorist.....