Poland's apartment prices continue to fall

^ Many? So you could easily quote three of such statements? Bet you a pint you can't.

Well I got to 2 - 266 and 284 but there must be more, unfortunately I have work to do !

I think perhaps your reading comprehension needs a bit of work. Go back and read it and make sure it is in context with what is being written on that page.

No problem cms, I'll give you until October to find it. We need to meet then anyway to settle our other bets!

Rather than worry about what people did or didn't say or imply and spending your time searching that out, could you please see if you can find the link to the dropping prices article in GW? They seem to have substituted the 'feeling the pinch' story for one about investors in Polish property which does not have the figures you quoted. If the 'feeling the pinch' story has totally vanished, one has to ask why did they remove it?

Housing development is different from civil engineering, unfortunately the Polish media calls everyone builders and does not differentiate between the two. A doctor is not a surgeon although they are both in the medical profession.

I was not referring to this type of construction as the topic is habitation, not public works:-

"Poland has worked hard to try to get its road, hotel and stadium infrastructure ready for the tournament it is co-hosting with Ukraine, but the final push has left a number of leading builders bankrupt or heading for insolvency.

Up to 100 contractors are seeking about 50 million zlotys (9.5 million pounds) for their work on the Gdansk road from general contractor Hydrobudowa, part of the debt-laden PBG group."

"WARSAW (Reuters) - Spain and Croatia fans heading for the Euro 2012 Group C clash on Monday may find the main road to Gdansk's PGE Arena blocked by up to 60 bulldozers and diggers because of a protest over payments due to sub-contractors.

Local authorities stress they will provide alternative routes for trams and buses to the match, which kicks off at 20:45 local time (07:45 p.m. British time), but that may not help foreign car drivers following GPS-recommended routes to the stadium."


Some company's will take on small projects to keep key staff employed, this is not there core business but you already knew that when you posted your stupid comment.

Avalon is perfectly correct, Civil Engineering is completely different from house/apartment building, the demise of Civil Engineering firms will have almost no impact on housebuilding. Banks, for instance, will continue to lend to house builders while they refuse to lend to infrastructure builders.

Even if a company does both, and the civil engineer is bankrupt, the building subsidiary will be sold off to continue in business.

edited because it will just offend people and I don't want to

I don't know anything at all about this website, but it carries this story headline in English:

Upcoming tsunami on the property market

freepl.info/2613-upcoming-tsunami-property-market


That's a hundred words, Harry ;o)

Here's another gazeta wyborcza article from today. Seems like there is a daily feed from them at the moment, and also good links to prices on their own websites.

Poles not in my head now buying apartments. Those who depend on a quick sale , so they are forced to lower their prices - Inevitably approaching holidays, which are not the best time to sell the property. In addition, all intentional or slightly less enthusiastic, we are involved in Euro 2012.

Plus another big builder with big cash flow problems, Polimex - they are again really a civil engineering firm but they have tried their hand at residential estates near Warsaw too


Nothing stupid about my comment - 8 developments x say 30 apartments x 60 sqm. If its impossible to build for less than 4000 per sqm then thats PLN 57m on their balance sheet to deal with. Thats more than just a case of keeping your architects busy for a few months.

Don't take it seriously, it's from the hysterical opposition media that will print absolutely anything to badmouth the Government. Much of what they print is flat-out lies.

If it's from Gazeta Wyborcza or Rzeczpospolita, it's pretty credible as far as mainstream journalism goes. Gazeta Polska most certainly isn't.

Might be valid info though,don't throw out the baby with the,,,,,,
but it is a sh1trag newspaper

Not really - they're predicting that people will stop paying, but why would they?

Polish property owners have no sense. They ask high prices for rental and their flats sit empty for months. Do they lower the price? No. Nor will they negotiate often.

I have some friends who offered 2400 on a listing of 2550 and the owner said no. The flat has been empty for 3 months. I simply do not understand the Polish idea of "reasonable".

He loses more in one month than he would in the entire year taking 150pln less. And this behavior is very common.

I've seen it with asking prices too - people would rather that a flat sits empty for months rather than take a perceived "loss".

It's especially common among people who inherit flats - they have a fixed idea of what it's worth and they simply will not take less. Of course, there's usually the issue that half the family needs to get their "share".

there was a stagnation period, but it ended in 2010 as the facts show that Poland's housing market was Europe's second-worst performer in 2011, down by 10.55% in inflation-adjusted terms. So the argument that Poles since 2005 refuse to put down prices is at odds with the fact and simply not true. Poland is not different .

globalpropertyguide.com/Europe/Poland/Price-History


same in every country, I've seen granny houses rot into the ground because families refused to lower prices.

Milky in 2005 this behavior wasn't so common from my experience. It has gotten worse. Everyone I know who has flat hunted in this year has had this issue. My friends got rejected again today for two flats offering for example 2200 on a 2400 listing. Both of those flats have been empty for 3 months or so and the owners won't budge on price. It's mental.

As delphiandomine said it is about pride and that pride costs them money. I am not a Poland basher but this pride along with **** ideas of customer service are the things I really hate about Poland. Both of them cause more problems for both sides and it is just illogical and unnecessary.

Polish Builders Like PBG to Get Government Help, PM Tusk Says
Poland may help building companies, including PBG SA (PBG), the Polish construction company under protection from creditors, Prime Minister Donald Tusk said.
Poland is ready to help troubled construction companies on condition that banks share the burden of builders’ losses, Tusk said in a televised press conference.

The court-appointed supervisor of PBG on July 17 ordered the builder to retake possession of 46 million shares in its Energomontaz Poludnie SA (EPD) unit it sold to its Rafako SA (RFK) subsidiary on Dec. 20, PBG said.

Polimex-Mostostal SA (PXM), Poland’s second-largest builder, is still in talks about a four-month delay in paying back its debts and as many as 95 percent of its creditors are ready to sign the standstill agreement, Puls Biznesu reported, without saying where it got the information.

Bank Gospodarki Zywnosciowej SA (BGZ), controlled by Rabobank Groep, doesn’t want to join the deal, the newspaper said. The bank’s press office declined to comment, Puls said. Polimex has 250 million zloty ($73 million) of debt due this month, according to the newspaper.

After a long wait Poland will finally have a theme park offering a standard comparable to Alton Towers, Efteling or Europa Park. Adventure World Warsaw will be opened in the spring 2015. This magic spot is going to be developed within mere 30-minute travelling distance from Warsaw, in Grodzisk Mazowiecki. The investment will cover the area of approximately 240 h. It will consist of the theme park, two hotels, an aquapark and the entertainment area with cinemas and restaurants.



Located about a half-hour southwest of Warsaw, the 240-acre resort is expected to debut in 2015 with a theme park, indoor water park, retail center and two hotels. About a third of Adventure World will operate year-round with the remainder of the theme park open from March until October.

A bit off topic for this thread and according to all the doomsayers, nobody will be able to afford to go there on their 1200 PLN a month salaries.

It is a large Real estate investment project, some companies see a slow down in the economy as opportunity to invest.

Or if apartment prices do indeed fall further from here, the [o[ulation might have more disposable income?
Alternatively, if Poland booms - then apartment prices will not fall much perhaps, and the population will also have more disposable income?
Final thought on this, if Poland's population get less disposable income, will they reduce their spend and holiday locally (the Staycation syndrome)?

Do all theme parks do very well, the ones that get built and not abandoned mid-way? Didn't EuroDisney struggle when it first opened? Seems it's struggling again.

bbc.co.uk/news/business-17981798

When there is a slowdown in the economy, leisure is one of the first industries to suffer, hence, restaurants and bars being empty or have you not noticed this. Weather will be another factor, to close down the rides for eight months of the year means high maintenance costs which in turn means that big profits have to be made during the milder/summer months, prices will have to be fairly high to attract investors. The parts of the park which will remain open will only be offering what is available in most cities and large towns, so why travel?

When DisneyLand in Paris was first proposed, most people were surprised about the location, many thought Disney would have chosen Spain for the guaranteed weather/climate. Disney struggled for the first few years and at one time had lost some $80 million, price restructuring and promotions have improved things but they are still barely making profit.

Having been to DisneyLand, California and Disney world in Florida, I would be afraid of trying the one in France for fear of disappointment at the French staff's attempts to be polite.

Two points here firstly, commercial real estate is NOT residential real estate. There is plenty of money for commercial floating around in Poland.

ksprop.com/en/article/silverstein-partners-with-poland-s-richest-man-in-warsaw-real-estate-deal

Secondly, Residential real estate in Poland no longer has the same allure for investors.

1. Price growth stagnant or falling.
2. Mortgage/finance requirements much more stringent.
3. Very little liquidity in the market.

In respect of the staycation syndrome the geographical location of the theme park is very interesting, Grodzisk Mazowiecki is on the Krakow to Gdansk train route. Both Chopin and Modlin airports are a fair distance away, especially the latter this would suggest their primary target market is the Polish market in my opinion.


Adventure World Warsaw considers their project in line with Alton Towers, Efteling or Europa Park, I have been to the first two with my children and these parks function very well it is a different model to the Disney world model, moreover Walt Disney also planned to build a theme park in Poland and then put the idea on the back-burner in 2009. We have also visited Euro Disney in Paris, the main problem being it is a three day session and apart from the Disney nuts, its not something you would do every year, whereas the Alton Towers, Efteling model has a good percentage of repeat visitors each year.

Should be an interesting time ahead, I am still renting but will start to search the for sale properties again soon. Was discouraged by an ad on one of the newspaper websites for property here at 5500PLN m2 - not much of a bargain, although perhaps the same plot would have been 7000 a year or two ago.

You sure are determined to get ripped off, i'll give you that.

50 - 60 m2 3- 4 rooms is always going to be in demand in Poland and therefore will carry a price premium in good locations and have good liquidity.

from the article. and very important. and this is why housing has not had a drastic drop in Warsaw. There are companies still investing in Poland with their head offices in Warsaw- and they hire locally and pay well by Polish standards- at least 3500 starting- in turn people are buying flats and getting out of the old blocks.

I think they were 2 rooms and from 5500, didn't seem that cheap - but then I thought property wasn't cheap in the London in 2005...and now look at it.


I did say I am discouraged, but someone who knows the area well might say 5500 was a discount for the part of Wroc it's in. I am hoping to not pay more than 3800 m2 in Wroc. If things get properly choppy, that will seem high too.

It's not impossible - do you drive? There are some new developments in places such as the outskirts of Bielany where you might be able to negotiate such a price.

You're right, but no I don't drive here as I prefer not to. There are places on the tram line or bus for 4750 apparently, probably they'd take an offer as they aren't going like hot cakes. Whether they'd go sub 4K is doubtful however. I'm not crazy about the location they're built at tbh.

I would wait awhile. Milky has stated that prices are dropping by 3% a month so you should soon get the 30% reduction you require. I might even buy a few myself then to rent out.