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The "Anglicization" of Europe


OP Lyzko 42 | 9,502
22 Jul 2022 #121
Mutating is right!
Seems to my ears that even during the late '70's when I graduated high school, my contemporaries, normal, average teenagers, spoke way better and expressed themselves especially in writing on a much higher level than many folks in their forties up through sixty nowadays.

I'm constantly irritated by how older teens and twenty-somethings talk on the phone, practically from the time they pick up the receiver until the final farewell:

Company XYZ: Hi, this is Sharon.
Caller: Good morning, is this XYZ Corp?
Company: Yeah.
Caller: Is Karen Ward at her desk?
Company: Uh, like, I dunno. Lemme check.....

If this passes for current "English", I want out.
jon357 74 | 22,827
22 Jul 2022 #122
If this passes for current "English"

It doesn't sound unusual.

I suppose we could all go back to regional dialects as were once used however TV and film well and truly killed that.
OP Lyzko 42 | 9,502
22 Jul 2022 #123
It doesn't sound "unusual", jon; it sounds downright illiterate, slovenly, and infantile!
I prefer things as they used to be pre-digitalization when English had plenty of snap, crackle, and pop, when language, not only coffee, used to kick start our day:

XYZ Company: XYZ Company, Sharon Hanson, speaking. How may I help you?
Caller: Good morning, I'd like to speak with Karen Ward, please. Is she at her desk?
XYZ: Oh, good morning. Whom may I say is calling?
Caller: This is Jason Mann.
XYZ: Just a moment, Mr, Mann. I'll just take a gander. Half a sec.
Caller: Much obliged.
XYZ: Mr. Mann, she's been in and out so much lately, I can't even keep track. As soon as she arrives, I'll give her the message.

Trust you see a difference.
jon357 74 | 22,827
22 Jul 2022 #124
it sounds downright illiterate, slovenly, and infantile!

it just sounds like speech.

I prefer things as they used to be pre-digitalization

They weren't though. No more than around 10% of society ever spoke in the prestige register.

Expressions like 'take a gander' are so colloquial that they'd not be used over the phone from an office even now.
Miloslaw 20 | 4,859
22 Jul 2022 #125
Europe does indeed have a lingua franca; as with the rest of the world, it's Globish

You are talking gibberish.

No, it's English. The richest and broadest of all the major languages

Correct.

And yes, it will mutate and change, as all languages do.
If it didn t, we would all still be speaking like Chaucer!
OP Lyzko 42 | 9,502
23 Jul 2022 #126
Well, folks, English is becoming ever more impoverished as we speak.
Indeed, jon, what I posted in #121 does sound like speech.....poor speech at that. "Prestige register"?? Today, definitely! Years ago, normal, because the general standard for everyday language was infinitely higher.

Face it people, the level or standard of English in general has declined immeasurably over the last forty-odd years, no question.

The main reason that most people under thirty these days don't ever watch classic black-and-white movies is simply because they can't understand what is being said LOL

If someone doesn't understand a blessed thing, heck they'd be bored out of their minds too.
jon357 74 | 22,827
23 Jul 2022 #127
ever more impoverished as we speak

Or even the opposite.

Years ago, normal, because the general standard for everyday language was infinitely higher.

I'm not sure where. Years ago, most people spoke heavier local dialects.

classic black-and-white movies

Most of them aren't that good and look bad on modern high-definition TV screens. Plus of course the actors had to speak in a ridiculous Celia Johnson/Trevor Howard form of English that most of the population didn't hear in real life from one month to the next.
OP Lyzko 42 | 9,502
23 Jul 2022 #128
Jon, with all respect, I'm talking here about the punchy dialogue of good ol' American noirs, e.g. "Double Indemnity", Force of Evil" etc. Movies for the rank-and-file American, NOT academic geniae.

If that doesn't wake ya up, even before your first cup of Joe in the morning, then yer dead to the world!

When was the standard higher? When I was in high school during the late '70's. I repeat, EVERYBODY was trying to outrank the other kid with tough-as-nails banter, e.g.

Girl: Hey, Mark! Your shirts havin' a party, why doncha invite your pants?

(A not so subtle "invitation" for your truly to kindly zip up.)
jon357 74 | 22,827
23 Jul 2022 #129
good ol' American noir

I did wonder if that was so. I like film noir too. In America of course, for much of the Twentieth century English wasn't just a native language, it was also a sort of lingua franca or Creole. I think you said once that your own family weren't native English speakers and of course a lot of second language spekers in a country does have its impact, as we can see in London now.

When was the standard higher?

Probably never. You'd struggle to understand my late grandparents who spoke perfect English however in dialect. When we talk about English here in an international environment, it's easy to forget that it's named after the country where it emerged slowly and steadily and that the effects of televison and now the internet are changing. Theere are still a few people who use thee and tha still though.
OP Lyzko 42 | 9,502
25 Jul 2022 #130
Fact of the matter is that English has eroded, indeed, has been dumbed down, simplified, watered down, nearly destroyed, in order to accomodate the ever vast numbers of immigrants who need to be integrated into US society!

Unlike French, even German, most other languages, American English has never had her own Academie Francaise, Received Pronunciation, Duden-Gesellschaft or Instituto Cervantes, to assist in preserving as well as maintaining a higher standard of usage.

Therefore, little surprise that in America, hence throughout the world, "anything goes" in English, as the US continues to lead, respectively MIS-lead, the way.

What is often rationalized as "creative", "rich", and "dynamic", usually turns out to be nothing more than lazy, dull-witted, vulgar, and merely attention grabbing.

No matter what anyone here insists, I can easily recall when everyday conversations with my high school classmates, in as well as outside English class, yielded far more reward than most of what passes as English today.

If a fellow student, typically under the influence of pot or alcohol, arrived in class and started spouting, "Yo, like,uh-, I liked that book "Great Expansions" or somethin' like that by that guy the teacher told us, yeah dude, it was like totally weird how Pip....." that individual would have been laughed out of the classroom, not by the teacher.... but by the other students!

This would have proven so embarrassing, they would have been forced to shape up or ship out,
And rightly so, I'd say.
Miloslaw 20 | 4,859
25 Jul 2022 #131
@Lyzko

As usual, you have a very narrow minded and blinkered take on language and society.
Language has always evolved!
If it had not then we would have all still been speaking like Shakespeare or even worse, Chaucer.....and then you would have really been moaning!

I cannot speak for some of the languages you commented on,, but French has changed as much as English in the last 40 years.
Get with the programme or get left behind!
OP Lyzko 42 | 9,502
26 Jul 2022 #132
The "program" has indeed continued to change, who wouldn't admit that?
However, whether it's in the end evolution or really devolution, remains to be seen.
All I know is, it's damned hard for me at any rate to remember the last time I had a discussion with a much younger person which actually took off as something other than a wet noodle, or more to the point, a lead balloon.

Remember an advertising meeting some thirty or so years ago, well before the Internet went into full swing. Can't recall after all this time just what was said, all I recall was that twenty- and thirty-somethings back then expressed themselves with such grammatical precision and idiomatic flare, I quite literally was getting dizzy. Attended a marketing session just about a month ago and the youth of today were so "exciting", I nearly fell asleep.

I speak her solely from my own experience.


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