Polish PM Tusk- dictator or not? What Poles think?

No. But it should be a bit larger.

It won't be double, but it might increase turnout from 50% to around 60-65%. Not worth it in my view - but obviously PO feel that there's a need for it.


The problem is that this isn't just one example of PiS - but rather something that was going on throughout the country. There was a very strong suggestion during the Presidential campaign that PiS-sympathetic priests were breaking the law in Eastern Poland, for instance.

But - I don't recall GW posting anything during the electoral silence. I followed both elections pretty closely, and nothing was mentioned on the site, except what was previously published.


What are these attempts? I've never heard anything about PO attempting to silence Rzeczpospolita.

Gazeta Wyborcza is unashamedly against PiS and everything they stand for. Is that really a problem, given the latest revelations about Marta Kaczynska's husband?

It certainly seems that most of the protests against Gazeta Wyborcza is that their journalists are just too damned good at digging up things that people don't want to be dug up.

like being driven by media hype (PiS is winning - let's save Poland)
this can be this simple - as the psychological mechanism in many Polish people is simple (the way the media wanted it to be) - they are utterly fed up with PO but the fear (I call it irrational you call it what you want - well for some people it is actually rational but they are in big minority) of PiS winning can be enough for many to go and vote in PiS's spite - this is perfect media training I'd say

my point is simple - those who want to vote (with marginal exceptions) were always able to do so

That's actually a very astute point. So who should win? I'm disappointed a bit with Platforma myself.

Actually, you're not far off the truth as I see it.

People might hate Tusk, but they'll vote PO to simply prevent PiS from gaining power. It's the same reason why the SLD might be going well at the minute, but in the election, PO will win simply to avoid the very scary prospect of PiS in the government.

PiS really did blow it - if they had got rid of Kaczynski, adopted an honest Catholic-Socialist programme without all of the crap and deliberately played on certain aspects, they'd be in with a real chance of winning. But - unfortunately - Kaczynski won't relinquish power for the good of the party - and that is what will cost them in October.

because I meant a different election in the 90's -as I have said I don't recall which election this was - it may have been a couple years before internet was widely popular - I have read about it in a paper edition of a political paper

btw here's the link to the news about voting cards found over 100 kilometers from their electoral committee found near paper mill which also recycles old paper (all of the cards were votes for Kaczyński in last presidential election) - the article mentions a previous article in Toruń edition of Gazeta Wyborcza (must have been paper edition - don't know if it also appeared in the internet edition):

W£OC£AWEK . With the factory of paper ballots are from last year's presidential election. Marked on them the name of Jaroslaw Kaczynski.

Wloclawek found ballots in the last presidential election. At all marked Jaroslaw Kaczynski. The documents lay in the mud . Nobody knows where they came from here.

Oh, come on, it was the 90's. Completely different country - it sounds totally unrecognisable compared to Poland today.


It's certainly an odd story - but this is Poland - is it any surprise that someone didn't destroy them like they should have been?

But in all of this - I'm very much convinced that PiS have actually blown it themselves. They may very well have won the Presidential election if they had nominated someone who was truly independent, after all.

Enterprise Publishing "Rzeczpospolita" and two members of the Board of Presspublica submitted on Friday to the court petition for dissolution of the company - said Marek Olender , a member of the board of directors . Presspublica is the publisher of , among others, "Rzeczpospolita " .

PW " Rzeczpospolita" and two members of the Management Board, on the recommendation of both companies believe that " the objective of the company has become impossible , and other important causes occurred due to the relations of the company" - Olender said in a statement. The lawsuit filed in the commercial court in Warsaw.

an excerpt - Według Presserwisu, działanie PW "Rzeczpospolita" może też oznaczać próbę odzyskania tytułu "Rzeczpospolita" przez Skarb Państwa.

this is the first thing I found - Gazeta Prawna is a competitor of Rzeczpospolita (it acquired Dziennik the year before last)


tell me what was the gap between Kaczyński and Komorowski in the final results of the second turn - it is even more interesting how much this gap was in actual number of votes and not necessarily percentage

and consider that those who try to manipulate/alter the results of an election do that for fear they might otherwise loos

edit: ok I have found the figures myself and presidential elections don't seem to be possibly manipulated - there were 200 000 invalid votes of about 17 million ( not much more than 1 per cent then) - the gap in votes was about 1 million - unless there was some different way of lowering Kaczyński votes like getting rid of votes for him and not counting them at all like it must have been the case with those ballot cards from Włocławek (the paper mill) but the necessary scale would make it rather impossible


well ridiculing people works only so far - as I have stated the electoral fraud when it comes to UPR is even well documented in one instance (you can find it in the link I previously posted) and it happened as late as 2009 Europarliament election - the reports of previous such instances were common enough to suggest some systematic behaviour on part of many electoral committes

I don't know much about Korwin-Mikke stabbing incident - but what I gather from the covering on the internet he haven't stabbed himself but was attacked by somebody he later wouldn't name (or even mention) instead claiming it was an accidental stabbing - here's my source [asme.pl/serwis/arch/6-2001.html] it carries citations from various newspapers of the time

I remember it well, sirens, police and all - I was about a coiple of hundred metres away at the time. I wasn't an eye-witness, but others were.

Not that long after the election campaign when every other lamp post was covered in stickers about firing 'scaredy cats' from the army and bringing back hanging.

Its just go to show that the late president or at least the people around him were crooks.


You expect people to take notice of the website you provided? Seems like a link to an ammetaur conspiracy theorist.

Indeed - anyone who believes that the Kaczynski's were some sort of moral guardians are sadly deluded.

I mean - when you look at them -

Father who almost certainly did some sort of deal with the communists
Marta Kaczynska, who had children with someone other than her husband and is now on her second husband from a Communist family
Jaroslaw's somewhat dubious life as a single man with a cat
Lech's attempts to force a pilot into doing something potentially suicidal (among all the other things)
Political witchhunts against enemies, both real and imagined

Maria Kaczynska on the other hand seems to have been a pretty decent person.

In all fairness - no doubt the late President was manipulated by his daughter into pardoning the crook.

it is always wise to add 'some' before these 'people' unless you want to slight the whole political movement (I don't claim all the PO are fraudulent and cynical types - I only claim majority of them are ;)


what you perceive enemies of Kaczyński I mostly call enemies of the Polish nation - you see how diverse view points can be

(I wonder for example what you called the former WSI 'military intelligence' (yes it deserves the so called description in my view)

and how about the long-term gas contract the governmant (mainly in the person of Waldemar Pawlak) has struck with the Russians - especially the shyness of the government to speak openly about it - are they perhaps waiting for the last days of the current Sejm to silently it pass it through the parliament (they have enough voting power to do it - and it can have much less of an impact on the election results being 'ratified' that late)

oh and I don't claim Kaczyńskis were spotless and to a certain degree they were cynical too - it is difficult not be at least a bit cynical (call it populist) and get elected - and they have made grave mistakes being too cynical - in my opinnion it was possible to form a more stable bloc with Samoobrona making some concessions to their positions-thirsty ranks instead of trying to take it over from Andrzej Lepper as Jarosław Kaczyński envisioned, planned and pushed into materialization - I have to explain that Samoobrona in my view was much less harmful to Poland's interests than PO is (I don't have equally mild oppinion on LPR though being an entity of personal ambition of one man (or just few people) when the whole environment shared so much with PiS save for a couple of prejudices LPR members harboured - but the political practice of 2005-2007 often made these people lose their prejudices - see for example Krzysztof Bosak's case)

Merged: Do Polish People Really Hate Tusk?

I'm under the impression that alot of local Poles really hate their Prime Minister, Donald Tusk, but no one can ever give concrete, factual reasons as to why. Can someone enlighten me?

I hate him because after paying taxes in Poland for 4.5 years I still cant vote him out. And he smiles like Tony Blair.

You do realise that a. elections are every 5 years, b. he leaves office in a few weeks and c. his predecessor was the worst one Poland has had.

there are multiple reasons - I don't run a list with his wrongdoings but there have been plenty - he does not defend Polish interests enough in the EU that's why for example he destroyed Polish shipbuilding industry - he pressed for the lowering of school age to 6 years against the will of majority of parents - he is a PR stunt monkey not solving problems for real

i know that Polish PM Tusk lied to Polish students and plus, recognized Kosovo separation from Serbia, forcing that way Poland to take part in partition of Serbia.

Those must be main reasons for Polish hate on Tusk. Poles don`t like that their PM blindly follow EU dictate and at the same time act against Serbs.

OK so

a. He lowered the school age to 6. Seems like a good idea, the people become more educated.
b. Destroying the shipbuilding industry. The decision to privatize Poland's shipyards happened before Tusk was elected Prime Minister
c. Lied to Polish students? How?
d. Kosovo's separation. The International Court of Justice determined that the separation did not violate international law, so why wouldn't a leader of country recognize it's independence?

I'm still not convinced ;)

Well, man,... Its a serious sh** in Poland when PM speaks nonsenses to Polish students.


There is article about it on Polska Gazeta. Tusk tried to convince Polish students that he acted on the base of international law when he violated Serbian sovereignty

Question to Polish prime minister from student of Warsaw university when he have meet with students:


Nobody sane in Poland don`t believe in that. Its a political court. It doesn`t matter what says The International Court of Justice that speaks from the angle of USA/western European interests. UN charters guaranties Serbian sovereignty.

USA and west of Europe ridiculing with international order. Poles expect more then that from their leadership.

In pretty well every country (except perhaps North Korea) a significant number of people hate their political leader, especially after they've been in office for a while.


Not a respectable source.

Merged: Polands opinion about Tusk

Today at Paris Unity Rally I saw Tusk hand in hand with merkel walking any comments?

its love. Merkel`s husband is prominent and very rich Jew. He would understand

It's probably understandable admiration, for the man seems to be a very clever scientist who, if rich, has studied endlessly to get where he is.

chemie.hu-berlin.de/forschung/quantenchemie/Group/js-1/js_cv
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joachim_Sauer

As for him perhaps being a Jew, that info is not stated anywhere that I checked, not that it's any of our business what religion or race he belongs to. What is relevant to PF is that Mrs M is 1/4 Polish (Poznan).

what i heard, he also studied endlessly to get Merkel where she is


i agree. Its his private thing


Nothing new. what i know, most of the Germans are Slavic origin, while are Baltic Germans for sure of particularly Polish origin and Southern/Eastern are of Serbian origin.

Exactly. An irrelevance.


I doubt they care. Identity is more important than so-called 'origin'.

In any case, why shouldn't Tusk walk hand-in-hand with Kanzler Merkel - better that than enemies and they do have many shared goals.

Exactly. An irrelevance.

Merged:

Truthful as Tusk

it's old news I know, but..

in July in a public speech in Szczecin Donald Tusk claimed that in fact the 500+ programme was the idea of his party and that Ewa Kopacz was working on introducing it:

the thing is Ewa Kopacz publicly stated that: "there is no money for the 500+ programme and there won't be" (she said the same thing as Jacek Rostowski former PO finance minister: polskatimes.pl/jacek-rostowski-pieniedzy-na-realizacje-obietnic-pis-nie-ma-i-nie-bedzie-video/ar/9019491

also Marek Sawicki (the agriculture minister in the PO-PSL government) stated that he doesn't remember any plans to introduce anything similar to 500+ in the times of Ewa Kopacz: tvp.info/54727941/premier-kopacz-byly-proponowane-takie-rozwiazania-jak-500-plus-sawicki-nie-przypominam-sobie

Tusk himself said in 2019 that he doesn't regret that his government didn't introduce 500+ :
tvp.info/54705394/500-plus-donald-tusk-platforma-wymyslila-kopacz-prawie-go-wprowadzila

Well, so what?
I mean is he a problem? Yes, I know that people like him are the problem but he doesn't stand alone. The crux of the matter is the system in Poland that allows such people to rise to prominence. He should be a con man in Gdansk, that should be the height of his career.

The same goes for many people in PiS.
Morawiecki should be selling postcards in a post office.
J Kaczynski a mayor of some middle saiced town.
Many others from PO or SLD should be still in prison ending their 20 or 30 years long sentence.
So stop bringing up some simple lies or inconsistencies - Tusk is not in charge, he doesn't f up Polish business as PiS does.

Don`t pay such serious attention to such banalities. That`s a piece of cake compared to PIS` lies. Those rightists lie day and night, even when they sleep.

rubbish . morawiecki is the most accomplished politician we have had long time, left high end corporate world to improve poland plus his father is anti communist hero who never compromised about roundtable etc.

bosak should be shoe shiner at warsaw stadium.