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Polish PM Tusk- dictator or not? What Poles think?


jonni 16 | 2,485
8 Mar 2011 #121
so if voting is twice as long as before the turn out should be like twice as much, yes?

No. But it should be a bit larger.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,455
8 Mar 2011 #122
so you find it that simple yes?

It won't be double, but it might increase turnout from 50% to around 60-65%. Not worth it in my view - but obviously PO feel that there's a need for it.

childish behaviour of Gazeta Wyborcza hehe

The problem is that this isn't just one example of PiS - but rather something that was going on throughout the country. There was a very strong suggestion during the Presidential campaign that PiS-sympathetic priests were breaking the law in Eastern Poland, for instance.

But - I don't recall GW posting anything during the electoral silence. I followed both elections pretty closely, and nothing was mentioned on the site, except what was previously published.

what do you call bi-partisan media I'm pretty curious - and how do you call PO attempts to overtake (and presumably silence) 'Rzeczpospolita'

What are these attempts? I've never heard anything about PO attempting to silence Rzeczpospolita.

Gazeta Wyborcza is unashamedly against PiS and everything they stand for. Is that really a problem, given the latest revelations about Marta Kaczynska's husband?

It certainly seems that most of the protests against Gazeta Wyborcza is that their journalists are just too damned good at digging up things that people don't want to be dug up.
gumishu 11 | 5,857
8 Mar 2011 #123
No. But it should be a bit larger.

like being driven by media hype (PiS is winning - let's save Poland)
this can be this simple - as the psychological mechanism in many Polish people is simple (the way the media wanted it to be) - they are utterly fed up with PO but the fear (I call it irrational you call it what you want - well for some people it is actually rational but they are in big minority) of PiS winning can be enough for many to go and vote in PiS's spite - this is perfect media training I'd say

my point is simple - those who want to vote (with marginal exceptions) were always able to do so
jonni 16 | 2,485
8 Mar 2011 #124
That's actually a very astute point. So who should win? I'm disappointed a bit with Platforma myself.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,455
8 Mar 2011 #125
this can be this simple - as the psychological mechanism in many Polish people is simple

Actually, you're not far off the truth as I see it.

People might hate Tusk, but they'll vote PO to simply prevent PiS from gaining power. It's the same reason why the SLD might be going well at the minute, but in the election, PO will win simply to avoid the very scary prospect of PiS in the government.

PiS really did blow it - if they had got rid of Kaczynski, adopted an honest Catholic-Socialist programme without all of the crap and deliberately played on certain aspects, they'd be in with a real chance of winning. But - unfortunately - Kaczynski won't relinquish power for the good of the party - and that is what will cost them in October.
gumishu 11 | 5,857
8 Mar 2011 #126
But - I don't recall GW posting anything during the electoral silence. I followed both elections pretty closely, and nothing was mentioned on the site, except what was previously published.

because I meant a different election in the 90's -as I have said I don't recall which election this was - it may have been a couple years before internet was widely popular - I have read about it in a paper edition of a political paper

btw here's the link to the news about voting cards found over 100 kilometers from their electoral committee found near paper mill which also recycles old paper (all of the cards were votes for Kaczyński in last presidential election) - the article mentions a previous article in Toruń edition of Gazeta Wyborcza (must have been paper edition - don't know if it also appeared in the internet edition):

W£OC£AWEK . With the factory of paper ballots are from last year's presidential election. Marked on them the name of Jaroslaw Kaczynski.

Wloclawek found ballots in the last presidential election. At all marked Jaroslaw Kaczynski. The documents lay in the mud . Nobody knows where they came from here.

delphiandomine 88 | 18,455
8 Mar 2011 #127
Oh, come on, it was the 90's. Completely different country - it sounds totally unrecognisable compared to Poland today.

btw here's the link to the news about voting cards found over 100 kilometers from their electoral committee found near paper mill which also recycles old paper (all of the cards were votes for Kaczyński in last presidential election)

It's certainly an odd story - but this is Poland - is it any surprise that someone didn't destroy them like they should have been?

But in all of this - I'm very much convinced that PiS have actually blown it themselves. They may very well have won the Presidential election if they had nominated someone who was truly independent, after all.
gumishu 11 | 5,857
8 Mar 2011 #128
What are these attempts? I've never heard anything about PO attempting to silence Rzeczpospolita.

Enterprise Publishing "Rzeczpospolita" and two members of the Board of Presspublica submitted on Friday to the court petition for dissolution of the company - said Marek Olender , a member of the board of directors . Presspublica is the publisher of , among others, "Rzeczpospolita " .

PW " Rzeczpospolita" and two members of the Management Board, on the recommendation of both companies believe that " the objective of the company has become impossible , and other important causes occurred due to the relations of the company" - Olender said in a statement. The lawsuit filed in the commercial court in Warsaw.


an excerpt - Według Presserwisu, działanie PW "Rzeczpospolita" może też oznaczać próbę odzyskania tytułu "Rzeczpospolita" przez Skarb Państwa.

this is the first thing I found - Gazeta Prawna is a competitor of Rzeczpospolita (it acquired Dziennik the year before last)

But in all of this - I'm very much convinced that PiS have actually blown it themselves. They may very well have won the Presidential election if they had nominated someone who was truly independent, after all.

tell me what was the gap between Kaczyński and Komorowski in the final results of the second turn - it is even more interesting how much this gap was in actual number of votes and not necessarily percentage

and consider that those who try to manipulate/alter the results of an election do that for fear they might otherwise loos

edit: ok I have found the figures myself and presidential elections don't seem to be possibly manipulated - there were 200 000 invalid votes of about 17 million ( not much more than 1 per cent then) - the gap in votes was about 1 million - unless there was some different way of lowering Kaczyński votes like getting rid of votes for him and not counting them at all like it must have been the case with those ballot cards from Włocławek (the paper mill) but the necessary scale would make it rather impossible

Korwin-Mikke? The guy who stabbed himself then blamed it on a mystery Chinese assassin!

well ridiculing people works only so far - as I have stated the electoral fraud when it comes to UPR is even well documented in one instance (you can find it in the link I previously posted) and it happened as late as 2009 Europarliament election - the reports of previous such instances were common enough to suggest some systematic behaviour on part of many electoral committes

I don't know much about Korwin-Mikke stabbing incident - but what I gather from the covering on the internet he haven't stabbed himself but was attacked by somebody he later wouldn't name (or even mention) instead claiming it was an accidental stabbing - here's my source [asme.pl/serwis/arch/6-2001.html] it carries citations from various newspapers of the time
jonni 16 | 2,485
8 Mar 2011 #129
I don't know much about Korwin-Mikke stabbing incident - but what I gather from the covering on the internet he haven't stabbed himself but was attacked by somebody he later wouldn't name

I remember it well, sirens, police and all - I was about a coiple of hundred metres away at the time. I wasn't an eye-witness, but others were.

Not that long after the election campaign when every other lamp post was covered in stickers about firing 'scaredy cats' from the army and bringing back hanging.
hague1cmaeron 14 | 1,377
8 Mar 2011 #130
Gazeta Wyborcza is unashamedly against PiS and everything they stand for. Is that really a problem, given the latest revelations about Marta Kaczynska's husband?

Its just go to show that the late president or at least the people around him were crooks.

because I meant a different election in the 90's -as I have said I don't recall which election this was - it may have been a couple years before internet was widely popular - I have read about it in a paper edition of a political paper

You expect people to take notice of the website you provided? Seems like a link to an ammetaur conspiracy theorist.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,455
8 Mar 2011 #131
Its just go to show that the late president or at least the people around him were crooks.

Indeed - anyone who believes that the Kaczynski's were some sort of moral guardians are sadly deluded.

I mean - when you look at them -

Father who almost certainly did some sort of deal with the communists
Marta Kaczynska, who had children with someone other than her husband and is now on her second husband from a Communist family
Jaroslaw's somewhat dubious life as a single man with a cat
Lech's attempts to force a pilot into doing something potentially suicidal (among all the other things)
Political witchhunts against enemies, both real and imagined

Maria Kaczynska on the other hand seems to have been a pretty decent person.

In all fairness - no doubt the late President was manipulated by his daughter into pardoning the crook.
gumishu 11 | 5,857
8 Mar 2011 #132
ts just go to show that the late president or at least the people around him were crooks.

it is always wise to add 'some' before these 'people' unless you want to slight the whole political movement (I don't claim all the PO are fraudulent and cynical types - I only claim majority of them are ;)

Political witchhunts against enemies, both real and imagined

what you perceive enemies of Kaczyński I mostly call enemies of the Polish nation - you see how diverse view points can be

(I wonder for example what you called the former WSI 'military intelligence' (yes it deserves the so called description in my view)

and how about the long-term gas contract the governmant (mainly in the person of Waldemar Pawlak) has struck with the Russians - especially the shyness of the government to speak openly about it - are they perhaps waiting for the last days of the current Sejm to silently it pass it through the parliament (they have enough voting power to do it - and it can have much less of an impact on the election results being 'ratified' that late)

oh and I don't claim Kaczyńskis were spotless and to a certain degree they were cynical too - it is difficult not be at least a bit cynical (call it populist) and get elected - and they have made grave mistakes being too cynical - in my opinnion it was possible to form a more stable bloc with Samoobrona making some concessions to their positions-thirsty ranks instead of trying to take it over from Andrzej Lepper as Jarosław Kaczyński envisioned, planned and pushed into materialization - I have to explain that Samoobrona in my view was much less harmful to Poland's interests than PO is (I don't have equally mild oppinion on LPR though being an entity of personal ambition of one man (or just few people) when the whole environment shared so much with PiS save for a couple of prejudices LPR members harboured - but the political practice of 2005-2007 often made these people lose their prejudices - see for example Krzysztof Bosak's case)
notpolish
19 Sep 2014 #133
Merged: Do Polish People Really Hate Tusk?

I'm under the impression that alot of local Poles really hate their Prime Minister, Donald Tusk, but no one can ever give concrete, factual reasons as to why. Can someone enlighten me?
Gdyniaguy14 - | 22
19 Sep 2014 #134
I hate him because after paying taxes in Poland for 4.5 years I still cant vote him out. And he smiles like Tony Blair.
jon357 69 | 18,360
19 Sep 2014 #135
You do realise that a. elections are every 5 years, b. he leaves office in a few weeks and c. his predecessor was the worst one Poland has had.
gumishu 11 | 5,857
19 Sep 2014 #136
there are multiple reasons - I don't run a list with his wrongdoings but there have been plenty - he does not defend Polish interests enough in the EU that's why for example he destroyed Polish shipbuilding industry - he pressed for the lowering of school age to 6 years against the will of majority of parents - he is a PR stunt monkey not solving problems for real
OP Crow 151 | 9,727
19 Sep 2014 #137
I'm under the impression that alot of local Poles really hate their Prime Minister, Donald Tusk, but no one can ever give concrete, factual reasons as to why. Can someone enlighten me?

i know that Polish PM Tusk lied to Polish students and plus, recognized Kosovo separation from Serbia, forcing that way Poland to take part in partition of Serbia.

Those must be main reasons for Polish hate on Tusk. Poles don`t like that their PM blindly follow EU dictate and at the same time act against Serbs.
notpolish
19 Sep 2014 #138
OK so

a. He lowered the school age to 6. Seems like a good idea, the people become more educated.
b. Destroying the shipbuilding industry. The decision to privatize Poland's shipyards happened before Tusk was elected Prime Minister
c. Lied to Polish students? How?
d. Kosovo's separation. The International Court of Justice determined that the separation did not violate international law, so why wouldn't a leader of country recognize it's independence?

I'm still not convinced ;)
OP Crow 151 | 9,727
19 Sep 2014 #139
Well, man,... Its a serious sh** in Poland when PM speaks nonsenses to Polish students.

c. Lied to Polish students? How?

There is article about it on Polska Gazeta. Tusk tried to convince Polish students that he acted on the base of international law when he violated Serbian sovereignty

Question to Polish prime minister from student of Warsaw university when he have meet with students:

Sprawy międzynarodowe: Kosowo i tarcza

In English:
Why you break international law and ignored most of Polish people and recognized Kosowo? (...)
Prime minister in answer assured that Poland didn`t act against Serbia and that he personally ``love Yugoslav culture`` He said that Poland have to do the same as another countries of the world and that Poland needed to balance between world powers.


PM Tusk salute Polish students, while tries to convince them that he knows what he doing and that he in fact love Serbs

Kosovo's separation. The International Court of Justice determined that the separation did not violate international law, so why wouldn't a leader of country recognize it's independence?

Nobody sane in Poland don`t believe in that. Its a political court. It doesn`t matter what says The International Court of Justice that speaks from the angle of USA/western European interests. UN charters guaranties Serbian sovereignty.

USA and west of Europe ridiculing with international order. Poles expect more then that from their leadership.
jon357 69 | 18,360
19 Sep 2014 #140
that alot of local Poles really hate their Prime Minister, Donald Tus

In pretty well every country (except perhaps North Korea) a significant number of people hate their political leader, especially after they've been in office for a while.

There is article about it on Polska Gazeta.

Not a respectable source.
pigsy 7 | 305
11 Jan 2015 #141
Merged: Polands opinion about Tusk

Today at Paris Unity Rally I saw Tusk hand in hand with merkel walking any comments?
OP Crow 151 | 9,727
11 Jan 2015 #142
I saw Tusk hand in hand with merkel walking any comments?

its love. Merkel`s husband is prominent and very rich Jew. He would understand
InWroclaw 89 | 1,915
11 Jan 2015 #143
It's probably understandable admiration, for the man seems to be a very clever scientist who, if rich, has studied endlessly to get where he is.

chemie.hu-berlin.de/forschung/quantenchemie/Group/js-1/js_cv
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joachim_Sauer

As for him perhaps being a Jew, that info is not stated anywhere that I checked, not that it's any of our business what religion or race he belongs to. What is relevant to PF is that Mrs M is 1/4 Polish (Poznan).
OP Crow 151 | 9,727
11 Jan 2015 #144
It's probably understandable admiration, for the man seems to be a very clever scientist who, if rich, has studied endlessly to get where he is.

what i heard, he also studied endlessly to get Merkel where she is

As for him perhaps being a Jew, that info is not stated anywhere that I checked, not that it's any of our business what religion or race he belongs to.

i agree. Its his private thing

What is relevant to PF is that Mrs M is 1/4 Polish (Poznan).

Nothing new. what i know, most of the Germans are Slavic origin, while are Baltic Germans for sure of particularly Polish origin and Southern/Eastern are of Serbian origin.
jon357 69 | 18,360
12 Jan 2015 #145
As for him perhaps being a Jew, that info is not stated anywhere that I checked, not that it's any of our business what religion or race he belongs to

Exactly. An irrelevance.

what i know, most of the Germans are Slavic origin, while are Baltic Germans for sure of particularly Polish origin and Southern/Eastern are of Serbian origin.

I doubt they care. Identity is more important than so-called 'origin'.

In any case, why shouldn't Tusk walk hand-in-hand with Kanzler Merkel - better that than enemies and they do have many shared goals.
OP Crow 151 | 9,727
12 Jan 2015 #146
I doubt they care.

Exactly. An irrelevance.
gumishu 11 | 5,857
16 Sep 2021 #147
Merged:

Truthful as Tusk



it's old news I know, but..

in July in a public speech in Szczecin Donald Tusk claimed that in fact the 500+ programme was the idea of his party and that Ewa Kopacz was working on introducing it:

the thing is Ewa Kopacz publicly stated that: "there is no money for the 500+ programme and there won't be" (she said the same thing as Jacek Rostowski former PO finance minister: polskatimes.pl/jacek-rostowski-pieniedzy-na-realizacje-obietnic-pis-nie-ma-i-nie-bedzie-video/ar/9019491

also Marek Sawicki (the agriculture minister in the PO-PSL government) stated that he doesn't remember any plans to introduce anything similar to 500+ in the times of Ewa Kopacz: tvp.info/54727941/premier-kopacz-byly-proponowane-takie-rozwiazania-jak-500-plus-sawicki-nie-przypominam-sobie

Tusk himself said in 2019 that he doesn't regret that his government didn't introduce 500+ :
tvp.info/54705394/500-plus-donald-tusk-platforma-wymyslila-kopacz-prawie-go-wprowadzila
Ironside 51 | 11,510
16 Sep 2021 #148
it's old news I know, but...

Well, so what?
I mean is he a problem? Yes, I know that people like him are the problem but he doesn't stand alone. The crux of the matter is the system in Poland that allows such people to rise to prominence. He should be a con man in Gdansk, that should be the height of his career.

The same goes for many people in PiS.
Morawiecki should be selling postcards in a post office.
J Kaczynski a mayor of some middle saiced town.
Many others from PO or SLD should be still in prison ending their 20 or 30 years long sentence.
So stop bringing up some simple lies or inconsistencies - Tusk is not in charge, he doesn't f up Polish business as PiS does.
pawian 180 | 17,056
16 Sep 2021 #149
Donald Tusk claimed

Don`t pay such serious attention to such banalities. That`s a piece of cake compared to PIS` lies. Those rightists lie day and night, even when they sleep.
amiga500 2 | 983
16 Sep 2021 #150
Morawiecki should be selling postcards in a post office.

rubbish . morawiecki is the most accomplished politician we have had long time, left high end corporate world to improve poland plus his father is anti communist hero who never compromised about roundtable etc.

bosak should be shoe shiner at warsaw stadium.


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