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Polish PM Tusk- dictator or not? What Poles think?


Ironside 48 | 9,900
26 Feb 2011 #91
So what do you propose?

Territorial elections....
jonni 16 | 2,485
26 Feb 2011 #92
And how would that work?
Ironside 48 | 9,900
26 Feb 2011 #93
ahahahahah hahahah hahahahah hahahah

you are an maniac, but I like you, you are like a tribal Slavic warrior, somehow :)

And how would that work?

Splendidly!:)
Sebastian 6 | 108
6 Mar 2011 #94
and how exactly is Tusk a dictator? I don't understand some of you guys. Kim Jong Il, Stalin, Ghadafi, and Lukashenko are dictators.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,771
6 Mar 2011 #95
and how exactly is Tusk a dictator?

It's the line that some Kaczynski supporters have been spouting, ever since their run of election defeats started in 2007. Jaroslaw Kaczynski himself has never came to terms with losing last year - even to the point of alleging (but not providing any proof) electoral fraud.
OP Crow 137 | 7,756
6 Mar 2011 #96
and how exactly is Tusk a dictator?

sophisticated
jonni 16 | 2,485
6 Mar 2011 #97
and how exactly is Tusk a dictator?

He isn't. He was elected in a free and fair election when the voters of Poland ejected the PiS coalition, he cannot legislate without parliamentary approval, he has a legal opposition (and a particularly aggressive and vocal one at that), he cannot pass a law without Presidential approval (and has worked under two very different presidents) and a fixed term of office with a round of multi-party elections if he wishes to extend his mandate.

Not a dictator at all.
Sebastian 6 | 108
7 Mar 2011 #98
Exactly Jonni, but unfortunately, many people on this forum jump to the most ******* stupid conclusions
Malopolanin 3 | 134
7 Mar 2011 #99
Tusk is bloody dictator. There is 15,000 disappearances per year in Poland. He is worse than Pinochet(who at least pursued the noble ideas - gave people the economic freedom).
gumishu 11 | 5,017
7 Mar 2011 #100
Sebastian:
and how exactly is Tusk a dictator?

It's the line that some Kaczynski supporters have been spouting, ever since their run of election defeats started in 2007. Jaroslaw Kaczynski himself has never came to terms with losing last year - even to the point of alleging (but not providing any proof) electoral fraud.

well I haven't checked it with Polish Electoral Comittee but Kaczyński mentioned a figure of 2 million non-valid votes in the last municipal and regional elections - this figure really gives food for thought - and to your knowledge 'disallowing' a vote in Poland is pretty easy - you just need to enter one more X or any other kind of a symbol in any other box besides the one that the actual voter used - and I have myself witnessed an electorial fraud back in the middle 90's - I voted in a small place where I lived - me and my mom voted for UPR - a small liberal (verging on libertarian) party - the committee is (was back then at least) obliged to display a summary of votes per party - it proved that there were 0=nil votes for UPR - strange huh? - I was than as literate as I am now (or even more literate back then) - there were of course no representatives of UPR in the committee which can explain a lot

btw I am quite curious how many invalid votes were counted in the presidential election of June/July
Malopolanin 3 | 134
7 Mar 2011 #101
2 million non-valid votes in the last municipal and regional elections - this figure really gives food for thought

It happens in every municipal and reional elections - probably PSL is responsible for this.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,771
7 Mar 2011 #102
well I haven't checked it with Polish Electoral Comittee but Kaczyński mentioned a figure of 2 million non-valid votes in the last municipal and regional elections - this figure really gives food for thought

I spoiled my vote in the mayoral election 2nd round here. Nothing special.

Incidentally, the PKW doesn't say anything about spoiled votes. As usual with Kaczynski, he's spouting unverifiable nonsense. I mean, the man is absolutely convinced that he had some sort of right to the Presidency - is it a surprise that he's claiming electoral fraud?

Tusk is bloody dictator. There is 15,000 disappearances per year in Poland. He is worse than Pinochet(who at least pursued the noble ideas - gave people the economic freedom).

So how do you explain the disappearances during the PiS government?
jonni 16 | 2,485
7 Mar 2011 #103
Kaczyński mentioned a figure of 2 million non-valid votes in the last municipal and regional elections

If there was a grain of truth in your suggestion that there is electoral fraud, Kaczynski would never have shut up about it and used every lawyer at his disposal, plus the EU's electoral observers to create the biggest sh1tstorm he could manage.
gumishu 11 | 5,017
7 Mar 2011 #104
I spoiled my vote in the mayoral election 2nd round here. Nothing special.

what do you mean by 'spoiled voice' - I don't quite get it

Incidentally, the PKW doesn't say anything about spoiled votes.

I have made a quick search and PKW post-election protocols clearly state the number of non-valid voting cards like here

pkw.gov.pl/katalog/artykul/16243.html

As usual with Kaczynski, he's spouting unverifiable nonsense. I mean, the man is absolutely convinced that he had some sort of right to the Presidency

that you are prejudiced is no news to me - actually it is you who spouts unverifiable nonsense about Kaczyński - like you sat in his head
delphiandomine 83 | 17,771
7 Mar 2011 #105
what do you mean by 'spoiled voice' - I don't quite get it

It's when you intentionally cast an invalid vote - in my case, I wrote a huge dialogue about why neither Grobelny or Ganowicz were suitable to be president of Poznan. It contained a lot of words such as "corrupt" and "not fit for office" ;)

I have made a quick search and PKW post-election protocols clearly state the number of non-valid voting cards like here

Strange - wonder why they don't include it in the figures in an easily accessible format?

Does what Kaczynski said match up with reality? 2 million spoiled votes from among about what, 15 million seems rather odd.

that you are prejudiced is no news to me - actually it is you who spouts unverifible nonsense about Kaczyński - like you sat in his head

But he's the one bleating about electoral fraud and all sorts of other imaginary crimes, yet he doesn't go to the public prosecutor with them.

The man is clearly mentally ill - you don't need to know much to know that he's having a very real public breakdown - and what's he going to be like after they lose yet again in the election this year?
jonni 16 | 2,485
7 Mar 2011 #106
The man is clearly mentally ill - you don't need to know much to know that he's having a very real public breakdown - and what's he going to be like after they lose yet again in the election this year?

A (staunchly conservative and Catholic) friend who has spent most of his life living a few doors down from him says exactly that. He is mad as hatter and unpleasant with it.
gumishu 11 | 5,017
7 Mar 2011 #107
gumishu:
Kaczyński mentioned a figure of 2 million non-valid votes in the last municipal and regional elections

If there was a grain of truth in your suggestion that there is electoral fraud, Kaczynski would never have shut up about it and used every lawyer at his disposal, plus the EU's electoral observers to create the biggest sh1tstorm he could manage.

would it be a surprise to you that the former head of PKW Ferdynand Rymarz is suspected of having been an informer of the communist services - he retired last year due to his age:

Is Ferdinand Saddler , chairman of the National Electoral Commission , the agent PRL security police nicknamed Black and Fred? When the public learned of the existence of corporal SB memo suggesting that Andrew Carrier could be a contributor to SB , chairman of the Institute of National Remembrance college Slawomir Radon announced that he should not apply for the post of head of the IPN ( carrier nevertheless decided to run ) . He explained that in relation to the president should not be even the slightest suspicion of collaborating with the Police .

to your knowledge jonni the most famous 'corruption' (I don't know the proper English word for the kind of affair it was) affair of FOZZ never reached the courts in time to judge its perpetrators - it only reached courts in 2005 or 2006 a while before it was deemed 'przedawniona" (outdated???) - seems like there was no will to judge the bad guys before 2005

there exist many reports of electoral frauds and Korwin-Mikke in the article beneath mentions why it is hard to annul election because of these (is to annul a good English name for this action???)
jonni 16 | 2,485
7 Mar 2011 #108
Korwin-Mikke? The guy who stabbed himself then blamed it on a mystery Chinese assassin!

Some of these nutjobs just can't accept an election result unless they agree with it. Shows how much, when it comes down to basics, they hate Poland.
gumishu 11 | 5,017
7 Mar 2011 #109
2 million spoiled votes from among about what, 15 million seems rather odd.

in municipal+regional elections you have to count it differently - cause you actually vote up to 5 times (three levels of local authorities +mayoral election (which can have second turn) - still this amount of votes (2 million) deemed invalid is highly suspicious

that's why I'm quite curious what was the amount of 'invalid' votes in the presidential election of last summer

delphiandomine:

The man is clearly mentally ill - you don't need to know much to know that he's having a very real public breakdown - and what's he going to be like after they lose yet again in the election this year?

A (staunchly conservative and Catholic) friend who has spent most of his life living a few doors down from him says exactly that. He is mad as hatter and unpleasant with it.

pretty interesting who this man votes for
jonni 16 | 2,485
7 Mar 2011 #110
pretty interesting who this man votes for

Some conservative nationalist party, probably, if he votes at all. Having a barking mad neighbour like that who briefly got to be premier doesn't exactly inspire faith in politicians.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,771
7 Mar 2011 #111
A (staunchly conservative and Catholic) friend who has spent most of his life living a few doors down from him says exactly that. He is mad as hatter and unpleasant with it.

Thing is, I don't even blame him. The real people to blame are the ones who provide his power base - they're the ones letting him melt down in public. They could (and should) have removed him after the Presidential election defeat - he was a broken, beaten man - but alas, they failed to strike.

And now, opposition looms for another 4 years.

would it be a surprise to you that the former head of PKW Ferdynand Rymarz is suspected of having been an informer of the communist services - he retired last year due to his age

Sadly, we can't trust the archives anymore. When you consider that not only the Communists in 1989, but also Solidarity may very well have tampered with them - as well as the fact that the Communist secret agencies were well known to falsify things - these archives aren't reliable. We really can't trust a damn thing in them - which is a shame.

seems like there was no will to judge the bad guys before 2005

It seems to me that in 2005, Jaroslaw Kaczynski took the chance to punish political enemies. He had made plenty of them - and somehow managed to gain the parliamentary majority needed to get away with it. If you listen to his rants, he had spent around 15 years building up enemy after enemy - and when he finally got the chance to use the State against people - he did.

His actions were certainly worth of Sanacja, though not worthy of any modern democracy.

Some of these nutjobs just can't accept an election result unless they agree with it. Shows how much, when it comes down to basics, they hate Poland.

Indeed - I trust the people at the election authority. If there's evidence - then they should take it to the public prosecutors instead of ranting to the media.
gumishu 11 | 5,017
7 Mar 2011 #112
Some of these nutjobs just can't accept an election result unless they agree with it. Shows how much, when it comes down to basics, they hate Poland.

I have personally witnessed fraud when I voted for UPR as I have mentioned here before - I never thought much about it until I quite recently have read of many of such instances where despite people voted for UPR their votes have been somehow 'vanished' i.e. no votes for UPR for certain local electoral committee - imagine that there were more imaginative or intelligent 'agents' in committees who just 'decreased' the number of votes for UPR (or perhaps some other 'unconvenient' political party) - and you suddenly can start to see some 'bigger picture' - in case of PiS the 'more imaginative' way of counting their votes has to be applied so as not to make it very suspicious

you may have never heard of filled voting cards in dumps found in the next voievodship but I have (recently - can't give the written source now but it was reported somewhere - and I heard it from somebody)

now, ask yourself why is PO pushing for two-day election??? one day was always enough for those who wanted to vote before - I am not for voting on the last of October as PiS wishes as this is much in the way of traditional Polish way of celebrating the All Saints Day

in general - read more and think more before judging - and remember Poland is not Britain - there so little civic control of the government in all its forms and branches here - there is hardly any civic society in Poland ('społeczeństwo obywatelskie') - forget about watchdogs pal

and sometimes remind yourself what certain 'champion of democracy' once stated - "It is not important who votes for whom, it is important who counts the votes"
jonni 16 | 2,485
7 Mar 2011 #113
you may have never heard of filled voting cards in dumps found in the next voievodship but I have (recently - can't give the written source now but it was reported somewhere - and I heard it from somebody)

"I heard it from somebody". Then go to the EU - they have a whole department for this, or the prosecutor, or the Constitutional Tribunal. Contact the media even.

Or hey, why not just spread stuff on the internet?
delphiandomine 83 | 17,771
7 Mar 2011 #114
now, ask yourself why is PO pushing for two-day election?

To increase turnout. It seems to me to be pretty clear.

However, as much as it pains me to say - Kaczynski is right - it's not in accordance with the constitution.

I am not for voting on the last of October as PiS wishes as this is much in the way of traditional Polish way of celebrating the All Saints Day

I wonder why PiS are pushing so heavily for this? Wouldnt this actually go against them, due to the fact that their supporters are far more likely to observe it?

Interestingly - I saw some PiS supporters breaking the electoral silence law last time round. Where? Outside a church.
gumishu 11 | 5,017
8 Mar 2011 #115
"I heard it from somebody". Then go to the EU - they have a whole department for this, or the prosecutor, or the Constitutional Tribunal. Contact the media even.

Or hey, why not just spread stuff on the internet?

how do you spread stuff on the internet tell me jonni - is internet much different to the media - would you buy an e-mail database and then spam pepole with your news (it's not me who would think of you as a spammer but a great proportion of those who would receive the e-mails) -

I have already mentioned how the prosecution can work in Poland - the FOZZ case - there are many other instances of prosecution not doing the right job - there are aslo instances where prosecution seemingly actively acted against people who were guilty of no crimes nor offences - see Roman Kluska case (the creator of Optimus (Optimus was once the biggest privately created company in this country and that from scratch) and onet.pl) - Kluska didn't put up a fight - maybe he knew he could not win - onet.pl was acquired from Kluska by the owners of TVN (ITI group) - I wouldn't be surprised if it was much below the standing price of the business) - to your knowledge Kluska is a mild supporter of PiS (PiS planned to introduce 'Kluska plan' - a plan to decrease obstacles to small business)
jonni 16 | 2,485
8 Mar 2011 #116
how do you spread stuff on the internet tell me

Post trash, especially alleging conspiracies, hoping people will believe it. Even better if they're long-winded posts concerning the media. That's how.
gumishu 11 | 5,017
8 Mar 2011 #117
gumishu:
now, ask yourself why is PO pushing for two-day election?

To increase turnout. It seems to me to be pretty clear.

explain that to me delphi?
how in your view was one-day election hampering turnout?

Interestingly - I saw some PiS supporters breaking the electoral silence law last time round. Where? Outside a church.

how this corresponds to Gazeta Wyborcza printing voting preference polls on a saturday before the electoral sunday - this is a known fact (well know to all those who follow politics in Polandmore or less closely for a good couple of years) - but I would have to dig for the exact date

Post trash, especially alleging conspiracies, hoping people will believe it. Even better if they're long-winded posts concerning the media. That's how.

where? - on my blog - do you know how to magically attract people to your blog jonni? how do you post in the mainstream internet?- you know - the best known portals - do they differ much from other mass media in the way they fill their news columns -

btw jonni you may have heard of Kataryna - the best known independent Polish political blogger - she is quite firm supporter of PiS since about 2005 - and if you can read Polish you can hardly call her mentally ill or perhaps lacking in intelligence
delphiandomine 83 | 17,771
8 Mar 2011 #118
explain that to me delphi?
how in your view was one-day election hampering turnout?

Pretty simple - the longer people can vote, the more likely they will.

I don't see much need for it, turnout is always around 50% - that's more than enough. Of course - compulsory voting would do the same job.

how this corresponds to Gazeta Wyborcza printing voting preference polls on a saturday before the electoral sunday - this is a known fact (well know to all those who follow politics in Polandmore or less closely for a good couple of years) - but I would have to dig for the exact date

Certainly, all sides in Poland are guilty of law breaking and childish behaviour. This is nothing new to those of us that follow Polish politics.

For me, the electoral silence rule is a waste of time anyway. If PiS members want to stand outside churches on Sundays, let them - no big deal for me. Likewise, newspapers and the media should be free to say what they want. The law served a purpose in times of old - now that we have more or less bipatrisan media, there's really no need to silence anyone.
jonni 16 | 2,485
8 Mar 2011 #119
where? - on my blog

You do realise, that every word you post here makes it to the search engines, and will be around for a long, long time. But political blogs? TL:DR!
gumishu 11 | 5,017
8 Mar 2011 #120
Pretty simple - the longer people can vote, the more likely they will.

so you find it that simple yes? - so if voting is twice as long as before the turn out should be like twice as much, yes?

you think this 50 per cent turnout is because these poor people simply could not get to vote yes??
God save us from compulsory voting amen

Certainly, all sides in Poland are guilty of law breaking and childish behaviour. This is nothing new to those of us that follow Polish politics.

childish behaviour of Gazeta Wyborcza hehe - I call it simply manipulative and cynical (cynical because the fine for such act is petty in comparison to GW money)(what kind of example this gives to the society at large) - and equating a couple of ardent PiS supporters with a national (and arguably the most influential) press title - btw most (if not all other) national newspapers and even internet media restrained from violating the electoral law by publishing the latest voting preferences on the eve of the election -

- now that we have more or less bipatrisan media, there's really no need to silence anyone.

what do you call bi-partisan media I'm pretty curious - and how do you call PO attempts to overtake (and presumably silence) 'Rzeczpospolita' - btw I would say Rzeczpospolita seems to harbour a diversity of views as opposed to GW (but I am just an internet reader)


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