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Thousands of Polish women attend Czarny Piątek rally in Warsaw


kondzior 12 | 1,125
21 Nov 2020 #661
defected fetus

A person born with a severe disability still will, at some point of his life and quite early if I may say (not more than 20 years needed), obtain an ability to simply kill themselves. If living as a cripple was oh so terrible as you make it sound to be, then we wouldn't even be seeing cripples doing what they can to endure and live however they can, now would we? Instead, from war veterans to people who had a freak work-related accident that had made them cripples, will often times choose to live with it, coping however they can, and even go out of their way to live their lives to the fullest (from their perspective).

And what is so terrible in allowing such child to be born? Yes, a world of pain and suffering awaits them, but over time - decades if need be - they may yet discover something to give them sufficient comfort and enjoyment in life. Alternatively, if they fail to do so, well they can simply kill themselves (and damn themselves in the process, but that's another topic). An average human lifespan is around 80 years, and like I said 20 years is enough for such people to make a choice: end it all, or endure. You want to deprive them of said choice simply because it is convenient for you to do so, or you subscribe to what is essentially a "projected morality", where your beliefs & experiences you deem as absolute and needing to be applied to everyone else.
Lenka 3 | 2,198
21 Nov 2020 #662
obtain an ability to simply kill themselves.

Without the ability to move their body? Or simply not having the wits to comprehend that notion?
Atch 17 | 3,316
21 Nov 2020 #663
Exactly, Lenka. There are people with a combination of mental and physical disability who don't have the freedom of choice.

At the same time it it is true that people with such disability are capable of feeling happiness, if treated with love, but sadly, many severely disabled people still have lives of utter misery, due to the lack of such loving care. Or else, they have love and some degree of happiness for the first half of their life while their families are around and are then moved to institutions where they are neglected and unloved. You won't see the Kondizors of this world dedicating themselves to the voluntary care of such individuals.
Crow 139 | 8,372
21 Nov 2020 #664
Woman should have full freedom to choose would they give birth or won`t.

In general, human kind needs to invest more in education and standard of living, not to limit human right, in this case, woman rights.
Lenka 3 | 2,198
21 Nov 2020 #665
At the same time it it is true that people with such disability are capable of feeling happiness,

True, many can lead quite happy life but there are also those who seem to be unaware of any such thing, incapable of interaction...

Loving care makes all the difference and that's why parents of such kids often pray their kids go before them.

I think one of my worst nightmares was always pecherzyca (the disease that creates blisters on the gentlest touch that later break etc. It would be hard to handle to give your kid all that pain every day...

My mom's friend had a heavily disabled kid (dead now) that required physio. She couldn't do it. She couldn't stand the crying and screams of pain. Thankfully the husband stuck around and he did it.

Another one of family friend wasn't so lucky- the guy went to a younger model. She won't have a life
johnny reb 28 | 4,427
21 Nov 2020 #666
simply because it is convenient for you to do so,

Exactly, I wonder who washed their diapers and cleaned up their puke when they were sick.
Such self serving people should be put to death when they need nursing care when they get old.
Sorry Mom, we don't want to be inconvenienced to care for you now drink this tea.

Without the ability to move their body?

What percentage of your mercy killing is that ?

You won't see the Kondizors of this world dedicating themselves to the voluntary care of such individuals.

I am sure he would do his part as many loving hands make light work.

in this case, woman rights.

No one has the right to kill the innocent.
Ironside 49 | 10,671
21 Nov 2020 #667
Female leader doesn't have the experience to bring down the government.

Are you a sexists' commie...lol!
kondzior 12 | 1,125
21 Nov 2020 #668
Without the ability to move their body? Or simply not having the wits to comprehend that notion?

The only question to discuss here is "do people with birth defects deserve to live?" If the answer is NO, then sure, abort them, but also kill anyone with birth defects that is currently alive, regardless of age. If the answer is YES, then you may not abort him. There is no moral difference between killing a person before or after birth, so it is nonsense to restrict eugenics policy to fetuses.
johnny reb 28 | 4,427
21 Nov 2020 #669
with birth defects

My question still has not been answered on that one which was:

What percentage of your mercy killing is that ?

With all the different kinds of contraceptives on the market in this day and age there is really no excuse for murder to be one of the options.

Then you hear, well it is the woman's body, she should decide.
Really ? I thought it was the babies body that was being killed, not the irresponsible mother's.
Crow 139 | 8,372
21 Nov 2020 #670
You all insult ancestors. Our ancestors respected woman. You giving up freedom of your woman to society and Church. Its betrayal. You are to protect them. You are lesser man if your woman isn`t free.

Falling to double standards and selective justice starting exactly from here. From fundamental question. State and Church convince you on this, they GOT you for everything.

No one has the right to kill the innocent.

No one is innocent. But don`t think in this direction when come to this. Move out of the box. It is on mother to give birth or not to give. It was so since the beginning of time.

But sadly, it has become practice in our time that some think to use woman as walking wombs, so, I presume, SOME OTHERS can adopt them. Those who giving themselves right to force woman to give birth so when forced, woman can more easily separate from such a born child. It is what THOSE who judge want. THOSE is state and Church. Defected fetus, child and lives of woman and man that gave birth to them are just collateral damage.

If the answer is NO,............... If the answer is YES,

See, that is the problem. Somebody have to judge and NOT MOTHER. Somebody. And I assure you, those who judge can mistake. Ask any doctor. It is always at least minimal probability healthy child to be aborted. What then? Let mother be judge.
johnny reb 28 | 4,427
21 Nov 2020 #671
some think to use woman as walking wombs,

I've seen your posts about how you enjoy slopping your baby paste in them.

force woman

Nobody forced them to spread their legs when they knew they were not on birth control and fertile.
Most of the people posting in this thread have nothing to do with the church besides you who hates the Catholic Church so please leave the church out of the equation here.
Lenka 3 | 2,198
21 Nov 2020 #672
@kondzior

Wow, you dropped your suicide argument so quickly it might have broken the speed of light :D

do people with birth defects deserve to live?"

Of course they do.
Women also deserve the right to decide whether they want to carry and give birth to a child that will die right after birth or will know nothing but pain.
johnny reb 28 | 4,427
21 Nov 2020 #673
a child that will die right after birth

And what percentage is that ?
We were all born to suffer.
Attitude is the key to happiness.
Novichok - | 277
21 Nov 2020 #674
Are there any women here who are mothers?
Crow 139 | 8,372
21 Nov 2020 #675
I've seen your posts about how you enjoy slopping your baby paste in them.

I reprimand myself every day. Its eternal fight.

Nobody forced them to spread their legs when they knew they were not on birth control and fertile.

oh you know them. Hormones. And frankly, if I`m woman I would be a biggest wh***e. Who could resist all that hunt on you? Why not educate them more? Why not invest in virginity belts? Why punishing them by taking away their freedom.

Most of the people posting in this thread have nothing to do with the church besides you who hates the Catholic Church

No, no, and no. I don`t hate Catholic Church. By that logic, when I criticized Orthodox Church, brat Vesko accused me to hate Orthodox Church. Its Vatican (and when we are at it, Constantinople) I want excluded from the business.

so please leave the church out of the equation here.

You deny that fanatics see woman just as wombs?
Lenka 3 | 2,198
21 Nov 2020 #676
Are there any women here who are mothers?

Of course
Novichok - | 277
21 Nov 2020 #677
What would you allow as far as abortions? I am honestly curious. If you choose to respond, please make it the final version, not just the first step. And be as specific as you can. I really don't want to read another "it's my body" thesis. Just imagine you are the Queen of Poland and you can write any laws you want.

No, I am not playing pawian 2.0.
Lenka 3 | 2,198
21 Nov 2020 #678
Probably up to 12 weeks for anyone, up to 19 week for disabilities.
Novichok - | 277
21 Nov 2020 #679
I appreciate your response. It makes sense assuming that that's it. I think those are the rules in France.
Does Poland have this? Quoting:

The general rule is that if a parent drops an unharmed newborn off at a designated Safe Haven location and hands the child over to someone, that parent will be free to go.
mafketis 24 | 8,925
21 Nov 2020 #680
Probably up to 12 weeks for anyone, up to 19 week for disabilities.

Close to my position, early on few if any restrictions with restrictions kicking in around the time of natural viability... but at any time for the health of the mother (and in tough cases of severe disability the mother should be the one to make the decision whether to abort or carry to term).
pawian 175 | 13,542
21 Nov 2020 #681
that I am for abortion without restrictions.

No, you are not. You are setting conditions while the acceptance of sb/sth must be unconditional.
Novichok - | 277
21 Nov 2020 #682
No rights are unconditional. Not a single one.
My condition is more than reasonable and goes under "informed consent". You want abortions? OK. This is how it looks.
If you are for meat, you should see a slaughterhouse. Then, have your steak.
pawian 175 | 13,542
21 Nov 2020 #683
Similarly, if you want to have sex with a female, you should attend and even assist at a child birth. I did at all my kids` births. How many did you attend? hahahaha
cms neuf 1 | 1,775
21 Nov 2020 #684
If you want to drive a crappy old Lada then go see a Lada factory.

If you had ever been to Poland you would know that religious nuts occasionally make massive posters of aborted foetuses - I have seen some so big that they take up the whole side of a kamienica
Vesko Vukovic 1 | 184
21 Nov 2020 #685
Any women in Poland who are considering to have an abortion should beforehand watch these two films:

"The Silent Scream"

youtu.be/DxKfw2b5ftc

(American film against abortion)

"Live"

youtu.be/jJnjxiR7jQ4

(A film by Russian director Elena Piskareva)
Ironside 49 | 10,671
21 Nov 2020 #686
You people, you pro-abortions peps ( should i call you dumb fanatics) - killing babies people are idiots, are you aware of it? or are you actually delusional and you really believe to be a fair and good folks>?

You are unable to make a wholesome, logical and coherent argument pro-abortion.
Maybe because you would have to step away from your incomplete and rather random ethical code that is basically bits and pieces of morality adopted from Christianity.

To be able to make such argument you would have to distance yourselfers from your ethical beliefs and stand on a firm ground of the ethic that actually put you and your needs (or those who are strong and in a position of power) above those who are weak, sick and depended. I digress.

Your so called arguments are just weak and unconvicting because you don't understand ethic or morality you just go with the flow in that regard. Those excuses and stories aim to elude emotional response in the addressee of your elegies'.

That semi-argument you have mustered and you are so proud of yourselves for being able to do so is about a freedom of choice but is as lame and faulty as any given argument you have brought forward.

Do I need to explain why? I will do so if you ask me but it would only prove my point and mark you as dumb ass who is unable to read my post with something akin to comprehension.
pawian 175 | 13,542
21 Nov 2020 #687
distance yourselfers from your ethical beliefs

I find it so fascinatingly amusing that a guy like you, and you know what decent people think of you here, ventures to lecture anybody on ethics and morality. You have neither so the only effect you achieve with your pathetic lecture is a contemptous laugh.
Ironside 49 | 10,671
21 Nov 2020 #688
decent people t

you are not decent people that just a baseless claim of yours. Anyone who chose abortion on

as his/her stance is not a decent person. Maybe be sincere but a stupid person but not a decent one.

Unless you have an alterative moral code that you adhere to. If that the case I'm all ears. If not and it it just another lame attempt from you to use J Kaczynski line of argument and talk about decent people just scram!
pawian 175 | 13,542
21 Nov 2020 #689
I am not for free abortion on demand/request. But rape, incest and defects are sufficient reasons for any woman to have it.

Rightards broke the compromise and proved they are going to make the law even stricter. Now, the most natural defence by women is to demand unlimited right to abortion. And they will get it sooner or later like in Ireland.

You can thank your ideological buddies for that.
kondzior 12 | 1,125
21 Nov 2020 #690
dropped your suicide argument so quickly

Did i?

Women also deserve the right to decide

Why? Why can they take that decision away from another person?
Who decides what 'sever defects' are?

There's your death panels, just like the very democratic solo death panels of every individual prospective mother - which is very liberal, individualistic position.

You won't see the Kondizors of this world dedicating themselves to the voluntary care of such individuals.

and thus we finally arrive at my favourite kind of abortionist logic leaps, where the answer to "there are underlying socio-economic problems that make giving birth and raising a child rough" is "kill the child" and somehow this is a perfectly sound statement

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