4th Polish Republic may re-emerge

Very true.


I definately do. Where did I underestimate the role of media ?


The language of love again :)) It is amazing how PO fanatics here adopt the strategy of PO. You turn the thread about recent polls into anti-PiS flame fest, concentrate on dirty stuff like bringing up family issues and at the same time complain on agression of PiS :) Donald, is that you !??


Admit what ? Father of twins had been low rank AK member, several years after the war he became a low rank PZPR member, very far away from a position of having any influence on SB so plizzzzz spare us insinuations about twins being protected in any way.

Zoliborz is one of main districts of Warsaw, your (and other "expats'") insinuations that it was some area for commie VIPs is hilarious. +100.000 people living there were all those influential I guess then, were they :)) ?

Twins lived there with their mother (their parents got divorced when they were little kids) in a flat rented from a private owner.

BTW here is that VIP area :))))

warszawa.wikia.com/wiki/Ulica_Lisa-Kuli

What would a 4th Polish Republic be?

Is it a political idea?

Too much propaganda, dirty tricks and personal attacks in this thread - on either side. Cool down and read this article (in Polish). Here are some paragraphs I translated to English:

Translated from: "Jaroslaw Kaczynski and his miracle of creation... of dissatisfied", by Robert Krasowski,
polityka.pl/wybory2011/1519032,1,jaroslaw-kaczynski-i-jego-cud-tworzenia-niezadowolonych.read

Virtuoso of others' emotions

For many years, Jarosław Kaczynski have been collecting the votes of dissatisfied people. However, this observation is only half the truth because, in parallel, he runs the second, much more interesting game - he actually creates disgruntled people. And in this he is a virtuoso.

...

Before anyone jumps up in anger, pointing out how anti-PIS this article must be by definition - because it is was published in Polityka and written by Krasowski (whatever it might mean) - I suggest to read it first and to appreciate the cool analysis it presents.

Nowhere the author attacks Kaczyński ad persona, nowhere he calls him stupid or paranoiac. In contrary, he uses such words as: "intelligent, progressive opposition activist, young wolf, unusual talent, having intellectual creativity or being a keen observer".

Yet his analysis of methods used by Jaroslaw Kaczyński is devastating.

If the PiS won, the PSL eager to stay in power would join it in a coalition. Maybe even the SLD, since on many social issues they've got a similar take.

Here is a nice article how Adam Michnik, the chief of Gazeta Wyborcza secretly buys flats through his friend, government official:
wsieci.rp.pl/opinie/kataryna/Borowski-i-mieszkania-Michnika
The article says that may be one of the reasons why Wyborcza keeps attacking CBA - the central anticorruption bereau, and mentions another case where a Wyborcza journalist, while involved in an corruption scandal, used Wyborcza to attack the CBA.

pawian

so actually it was not a disaster for Poland it was a distress for some of the population (one needs to mention that it was all media-created distress - i.e hype - that Poles as a society are vulnerable to such hype is a different thing to contemplate)

boletus

people without a bias don't use a language like that - btw this is just cheap second-guess psychological analysis most probably by someone who never actually studied psychology

oh well, I now see who wrote it - Robert Krasowski - he's just another 'cyngiel' journalist - 'hitman' - you should have read his articles in the (in)famous times of 'Der Dziennik' - the guy is very biased - he simply detests Kaczyńskis - just another elitist prick

delphiandomine


the SLD may well slumber below 10 per cent - maybe even 8 per cent - that makes them coalition-ready but can hardly be called a success - still if the PO + PSL can gather enough seats SLD will be still left out in the cold - and the leadership is gone then - there is actually a fifth column in the SLD of which Ryszard Kalisz is the most prominent member - they may well defect to PO or make a secession from SLD to join PO in government so that PO does not have to involve with PSL again (it proves costly in the end - you can't make a move with KRUS for example) -

for SLD to become a credible political movement they would have to cut their links with the past even with quite recent past and focus on social things instead of 'gay rights' - maybe it's beyond their capabilities and/or affilliations -


btw boletus - didn't you know that Polityka is even more 'gazetowyborcza' than Gazeta Wyborcza itself? that there are a couple of inteligent people there does not mean they are not biased or don't have their ties and affiliations - if you really seek an open media in Poland it's Rzeczpospolita - you can read plenty of views there even if most of the publicists (including the editor-in-chief) there are 'antysalonowy' (and thus mostly supportive of PiS - but the stress is on mostly) - you can read articles by Waldemar Kuczyński in Rzeczpospolita - have you ever seen an article by Rafał Ziemkiewicz in Gazeta Wyborcza or Polityka - you will only hear dissing and disparaging of Ziemkiewicz in Gazeta Wyborcza, Polityka, Radio TOK or TVN (Polsat conveniently does not ever mention Ziemkiewicz - but then even Polsat News don't have a thing like newspaper's review - they don't want you to know too diverse views or to actually read newspapers - to be honest I don't read newspapers just the internet)

catsoldier


3rd Republic (Trzecia Rzeczpospolita) is an political entity that is corrupt to the core and corruption is at its roots (corruption was and mainly remains the essence of the system) - hence some people in Poland wanted 4th Republic - a new beginning - the term was coined by Paweł Śpiewak - a political scientist and then a PO figure (cut out by Donald Tusk and various coterias along the way) - there was a time some circles in PO used a very similar language PiS did then and often still does - the problem is PO nascence and history is also a history of corruption and mischief (PO is held to be former secret-services-created political outlet by many political observers in Poland - from what I can gather (and I read a lot about politics for years now) it can't be far from true)


well - I don't know about Kaczyński family history too much - but consider for example the history of Stanisław Skalski - sentenced to death during Stalinist times - spent a couple of years in prison after the trial (and also a couple before - then tortured as well) awaiting execution - released and rehabilatated during the 'thaw' of 1956 - eventually allowed to follow a career in the commie military force - rose to the rank of pułkownik in the PRL - sure he must have made compromises (most probably agreed not to divulge on his treatment by the communists during the 50's or to ever criticize the regime)

delphiandomine


yes - so you actually have found one case - btw how much would it have cost the tax payer if it succeded- was it a blatant attempt at extracting money from the state as PO does (ever heard how much money so called 'social campaigns' for the TV cost and who gets the money?)

where is the plenty other cases delphi???

btw could you possibly enlighten our readers what were the circumstances of PiS offer to Renata Begier? I mean the general political circumstances not what was the weather these days

gumishu


Well gumishu, I am not that naive. Of course they are - as everyone else is. As old saying go "you have your friends and I have mine" and "friends of mine friends are not necessary my friends." You were never hiding your political affiliations on this forum, neither were I. But worry not - I will not vote in incoming elections - all I want to hear on this forum is some form of civilized set of arguments, when someone - unfortunately - decides to bring one of those political topics here. But sorry - "prick, cyngiel, hitman" do not belong to that category, so stop please. Commenting on family past - daddy in communist party or grandfather in Wehrmacht, as already used here many times (I am not saying that it was you saying this) also does not belong to a bon tone.

Of course I tried reading various papers other that "Polityka", "TVN24" or "Gazeta Wyborcza" in the past. I started with Rzeczpospolita few years back but I quickly found it really biased - although I believe that the proportions are much better nowadays - as you rightfully say - so this is a good sign. So I go there for some news or comments sometimes.

Rafał Ziemkiewicz and "niezależna.pl" - with their conspiracy theories, Macierewicz with his Smoleńsk, Rymkiewicz with his "rymy częstochowskie" and all of this - just make me laugh. I am sorry gumishu, there is nothing "independent" in their political agenda and their motto "We inform they lie" is just, well, laughable. No, this one is not for me either. And that's my biased opinion - I am just responding to your recommendation - and I have a full right to disagree with you.

"Dziennik" is just a tabloid, with the worst possible bunch of readers and their adolescent idiotic comments. No, this is also not for me. Such a loss of time.

Yes, I agree with you on the point of collecting information mostly from internet. I do not know how you do it, but I do not mean "salon.pl" or other such media. I used to mostly read foreign comments via google - until recently when I noticed that foreign media are slowly becoming polluted by views of Polish journalists - who are being more and more employable by serious major agencies, such as "Wall Street Journal", "The Economist", "Financial Post", "Washington Post" and such others. On one hand this is a good sign to see young Poles making inroads to international journalism, due to their evident progress in English. On the other hand - there is no escape here, biased Poles are everywhere. :-)

boletus


the thing is the article by Krasowski is clearly written in ill will - it's goal is to discredit Kaczyński and his views - if someone wants a political discourse with Kaczyński he needs to address Kaczyński's diagnosis of the ills of Poland - if someone conveniently hushes over these and writes in critical tone about Kaczyński I tend to believe s/he's of ill will

That is a typical PiS-like mania. You are sick. :):):):):


And why did the concept of 4th Republic collapse?

I will tell you why: because PiS used bolshevik and fascist methods to introduce it. The main symbol of PiS rule in Poland was witch hunts.

Sorry, as an intelligent person you surely realise it wasn`t the right way. :):):):)

now are you able to name those 'lunar ideologies' after Krasowski boletus?? to me it's just using 'strong language' without much base - if you believe that privatisation in Poland was immaculately pure of course someone who believes Polish industries were sold for a fraction of their actual worth will be an 'idealogue from the moon' - have you ever considere how was it possible to have 'oscylator' and 'FOZZ affair'

FOZZ affair branch-out after wikipedia:
Kontrola wykazuje sfałszowanie bilansu banku, fałszowanie dokumentów bankowych, nielegalne operacje dewizowe etc. Sama kontrolująca szacuje straty poniesione przez polską gospodarkę w wyniku operacji dewizowych Banku Handlowego na 5 do 10 mld dolarów w latach 1991-­1992. Skala strat i stosowane mechanizmy wyraźnie wskazują na ścisły związek z odkrytymi przez świętej pamięci Michała Falzmanna zjawiskami rabunkowego transferu dewiz z Polski

5-10 miliardów dolarów - is now more or less yearly budget deficit of Poland - and back then it was perhaps more like 1/3 of the whole Polish budget I guess (not even from the top of my head)

Please, can you check sources before you post such BS?


Exactly. Do you know anything about the condition of Polish industry in 1990? I don`t think so.

what sources - I just shared my guess that back in 1989 10 billion bucks was some 1/3 of the whole Polish budget - and I said it was not an educated guess - so what sources do you want - I am the source of the guess if you ask ?? :)

I may be wrong - I have just thrown a figure that I liked (or like that ;) - if you are critical towards it back it up somehow ;) - I don't claim the figure's right - but you directly claim it's wrong - back it up then

or maybe you don't like the statement that 10 billion bucks is like Polish yearly budget deficit - then it is you who need to check your sources

It is very unprofessional of you. If you throw figures that you liked....... What should we think about you and everything you say here, tell me?

It took me 30 seconds to find the figures.

I encourage you to do the same, even if it will take you longer.

But if you do, it will mean you are a serious participant in our discussion.

So far, you haven`t proven it. You seem to have dropped from the moon with your theories.

I am giving you a chance. If you are Polish, not Plastic Polish, you will be able to find it.

I found some figures, all right -

now translate these figures into PLN (the 1990 budget earnings were ca. 200 Polish billions of złotys then (200 American quadrillions I guess) - dollar costed around 10 000 złoty - so you have a budget of around 20 billion dollars (20 milliards of dollars) - I don't take into account the deficit run by the state treasury that year cause I haven't found it but I guess it couldn't have been more than 10 per cent of the state incomes/earnings - the top figure of 10 billion of dollars that were presumably malversated in Bank Handlowy operations were then more than 40 per cent of the actual budget of the Polish state (with the lowest 5 billion dollars accounting to some 23 per cent of the budget of 1990) - so my GUESS was actually quite accurate


btw how have you come up with the idea I can be a Plastic Pole - really made me wonder

forget it - an error

now tell me what you think about me and everything I say here - I can tell you something - there was once a discussion here with Bratwurst Boy about how many troops the Nazi Germany had to keep in the occupied Poland to pacify it (say to prevent an open uprising) - my GUESS (a bit though out but a guess) was it had to be around half a million (500 000)- I hadn't hidden the fact that it was a guess - Bratwurst Boy ridiculed me and said he thought 50 000 would have been enough - then I finally got a source on that and my guess was pretty accurate -

so just don't underestimate my guesses pawian :) - btw I usually guess on the things I haven't a clue or the faintest idea about

boletus


where? point it out please

That was my error in my response, not yours. I quickly removed it with the annotation "forget it - an error".

I think it's the only mistake - it should be American trillions


oh, I never had a chance to see your response - but don't worry - I don't claim I don't make mistakes - I have made plenty - it's not mistakes that should be feared

Gumishu


I take full responsibility for translating his phrase "księżycowe ideologie" into "lunar ideologies", which is not strong at all, I think. It just corresponds to: "taken from thin air". But if I mistakenly wrote instead a phrase "loony ideologies" - that would be strong and very inappropriate language in this context. So I am fine, there was nothing abusive either in Krasowski's original text, or in my translation.

And that Kaczyński goes all over the place and takes things from the thin air - here is a tiny collection of his own words, faithfully reproduced from the internet, which prove that:

"If you think that you would ever take power you are in error" - addressed to PO opposition.
- He was arrogant here and wrong too, as history has proven

"In Poland, the political system created such a structure that is difficult to achieve a situation that the president and prime minister will not quarrel. I do not know whether this should be written in the Constitution that only the brothers should perform these functions."

- Hard to comment listening to him here


I have very little faith in intellect of Mr. Komorowski
- Well, personally I will never say such thing about my political opponent. In my view, this is a self description of somebody with very little grace.


Edward Gierek was a communist, but also a patriot
- We obviously know that he was trying to buy SLD voters here. So he lied here for political gain. "Lunar ideology" again.


I wanted to govern when I was 12 years old. I intended to become a prime minister at the age of 34, and to end my rules at 91. This would be the year 2040. This is still a lot of time.

- He declares to have incessant appetite for power - so Krasowski was right on the spot.


Look at me because you look at Lukaszenka.
- During his speech at PiS convention. No rational explanation here.

There are dozens more of such golden nuggets but paraphrasing Sienkiewicz: Enough said. Kończ Waść, wstydu oszczędź!

boletus

oh my oh my - you are looking at the facade - and you are pretty easily scared seems to me - don't the deeds speak more than words (apply this rule to £ukaszenka bit, PO opposition address)

brothers as president and prime minister - don't you trace a humorous note to this - you live too long abroad boletus and don't get to see Polish politicians often enough - it is just the way Kaczyński's sense of humour works )

If for one you would claim that Kaczyński loves power for the power itself I would pretty much disagree (even though some note of it is recogniseable in his personality) - but Kaczyński has a vision of a better Poland, Poland of more equal chances, Poland with effective state that serves the population and not enslaves them, a more just Poland - now compare that to the words and actions of Donald Tusk - in my eyes Tusk is almost power for the sake of power incarnated - you need to follow him more to know that I believe (not only in written form) - I can't see any vision of better Poland by Tusk - all I can see is mischief (scratch mischief - my English is far from perfect - deception doesn't sound perfect here but I officially OK it for now )

Gumishu, ple..e..e..a..s..e. What makes you think that I lack any sophisticated sense of humour - which apparently, you think, you display in abundance? If you have in mind the one displayable by your beloved leader Jaroslaw Kaczyński than I say - oh-ho-ho-ho - and I will readily admit I have no clue what he is talking about. And that's all fine, you won. I am going to continue having no clue.

But let me take a little break on a side - I am now going to start laughing for no reason whatsoever for about next 20 seconds… Done. I am fine now..

You have assumed so much about me so far - yet you have have no knowledge whatsoever who am I and what my sense of humour is. But imagine this: one day, it may happen that you "gumishu" and I "boletus" will face each other at some indescriptible location, at some indescriptible table. What do you think, you are going to tell me at the opening of the conversation?

This is my point Gumishu - you and many of your friends are probably very nice, caring and reasonable people. But your leader actually sucks so badly that I even do not know when to stop laughing…

actually I am not assuming that much about you pal - I'm only sort of assuming you live abroad (I believe I have seen you writing about it one day here on the forum) - ok I'm also assuming you don't follow Polish politics on a daily basis (especially through the TV) - and my point is it really makes a difference - you have your prejudices against Kaczyński - well, it's allright - but I still believe you are not able to grasp much of Kaczyńskis sense of humour - not because you are not sophisticated but because you don't know the man well enough - you just take everything you read about Kaczyński and what Kaczyński says as dead serious I presume

btw do I claim is a witty, bright merry guy? - not very much I'd say - but stating Kaczyński has not got a sense of humour is just false - I can positively confirm he has one - sure there will be millions of people who claim otherwise (but then I believe most of them are prejudiced or don't have enough exposure ;)


now you are assuming quite a lot about me - I respect Kaczyński even though I have seen him make incredulous political mistakes (on the verge of a political suicide and actually quite recently) - but no Kaczyński is not my beloved leader - and I don't think he's a genius of politics either (those mistakes - plenty of them - like saying things he really thinks sometimes without much consideration that are easily turned around against him)

I respect Kaczyński because I believe he's sincere in his attempts at making Poland a better country (and the most logical way to do it is to make it to the government don't you think) - and I respect him because I tend to agree with most of his diagnoses of Poland's ills

So according to your logic, sincerity trumps competence?

is PO government any more competent - letting shipbuilding industry down the drain (with some PO members actually scavenging on it), not being able to create good documentations and then proper financing for the motorways for EURO 2012 - key elements will be missing - should I mention some exorbitant promises Tusk made before the previous elections - like a laptop for every pupil in Polish school? During his expose in 2007 which broke all world records of duration (over 3 hours) Tusk promised almost everything to everyone (they around 100 individual more or less specific promises were included ) - Tusk personally criticised Kaczyński on the issue of installing more speed cameras saying that only someone who does not drive daily makes such policies - then during 3 years of PO government the number of speed cameras doubled

more competence? - there is almost 1:1 ratio of privates to officers in Polish now fully profesional army - there is not enough money simply to hire more people - National Reserve Service has been created to amend the lack of obligatory service (during the last years of this so called obligatory service less than 50 per cent of those elligible were actually drafted) - the NSR (Nardowa Służba Rezerwowa) is so badly thought out and implemented they have never reached 50 per cent of the human force they were envisioned for - there is one general in Poland per less then 1000 soldiers - you would think they do have decent wages - and you are right they do - the beaureaucracy in the military is almost unbelieveable - there is 1.5 of a beaurocrat per 1 soldier in the Polish army (250 000 on MON wages while the fighting force consists of around 100 000 people) - minister Klich anounced reductions of the military beaurocracy in 2009 (if not earlier) - but actually did very little if anything to further that goal

Competence in what exactly?propaganda ?

Ooops, yes, of course you are right. I made a mistake - somehow I thought we were talking about Polish GNP, not a budget. .

Really sorry for that, you were professional with your figures after all while I was too hasty. Forgive me, please.

Good job, Gumishu. :):):):)

BTW, Poland has done a good job too. 21 years ago the budget was 20 billion, today it is about 120.

I thought they just created coalition governments with them.

::):):)

Very well said. It happened in 2007 when PiS invited Samoobrona to its government.

Trevek observed:


WIN!!!!

Exactly, and during one of the debates with Tusk, when the matter of PiS using the police against political adversaries, Kaczyński joked about having the surveillance on Samoobrona from before they went into coalition with them. Tusk didn't pick up on it but he might have asked why, if K felt that way about them, was a PiS government prepared to allow people they thought were crooks into government and into positions of major power.