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Poles say a big YES to our European Union


Crow 146 | 9,142
12 Jan 2021 #691
China are already very, very deep into Serbia and to a lesser extent Montenegro.

Check your data. China own Crna Gora financially and Crna Gora call Serbia to bail them out of debt. With it, with support of Serbian populace of Crna Gora, Serbia just have to move finger and merge with Crna Gora, secure its return to the Adriatic, what would trigger even bigger merging of `Serbian world` how some call it.

The West could help a number of people in the East by dealing with Moscow.

Instead, West proved to be false West and East to be the true West. Thank you.
Tacitus 2 | 1,180
12 Jan 2021 #692
No you couldn't!

Of course we did.

It was agreed upon during the negotiations for the treaty of Warsaw that some ethnic Germans who still lived in Poland were allowed to leave for the West, while conditions for those remained in Poland improved. The same happened in negotiations with the SU. The GDR stopped executing people to make a better impression on West German society for their quest for recognition, and later negotiated on channels that were established for the Basic treaty of 1972 a release of dissidents (basically selling them for money). This detente paved the way for the Four Power Agreement on Berlin, that made the life easier for those living in the divided city, and the Helsinki accords that decreased tensions in Europe and forced the SU to accept certain human rights for the first time.

Those were all remarkeable achievements that happened within a few years, compared to nothing in the preceeding 20 years or so.
Crow 146 | 9,142
12 Jan 2021 #693
Margaret Tacher begged Gorbachov, Soviets to keep troops in Eastern Germany. But Gorbi refused, made wise move. He knew, when Soviets are out beggining clash within western Europe for domination. Even western European stabbing the USA. See, that bought time Russia to consolidate. Then came China. Rest is history.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,475
12 Jan 2021 #694
that made the life easier for those living in the divided city

I've always thought that East Germany should be looked at as two different eras: the pre-Basic Treaty and post-Basic Treaty.
Tacitus 2 | 1,180
12 Jan 2021 #695
I've always thought that East Germany should be looked at as two different eras

There is some merit to that thought. The system of course did not fundamentally change, but the GDR was now more concerned about their image and toned down some of their worst behaviour or at least tried to hide it. The Helsinki Accord for example discredited the death penalty, and as a result the GDR almost completely stopped executions before it banned it outright in 1987.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,475
12 Jan 2021 #696
toned down some of their worst behaviour

I've read one interesting analysis of the Stasi that suggested that it was also consistent with them moving from physical abuse towards psychological abuse too around that time. I remember one example from the Stasi Museum in Berlin - rather than take someone in for questioning, they would simply mess with a person's life in such a way that it could be plausibly denied, such as by interfering with the order of things in their apartment, or simply making sure that they didn't receive things they were expecting, such as a university admission letter.

As not to be off-topic, I think it's clear that Poles have embraced the European Union in border communities. The current restrictions in Gorlitz/Zgorzelec are having a devastating effect on people, especially as it was so normal pre-Corona to go for dinner in Zgorzelec and for a pint in Gorlitz.
Tacitus 2 | 1,180
12 Jan 2021 #697
Stasi that suggested that it was also consistent with them moving from physical abuse towards psychological abuse too around that time.

Oh most certainly, but they at least significantly toned down their attempts of kidnapping escaped East Germans from West Germany, and it also prevented them from too openly supporting the terrorist group RAF, fearing the bad publicity. The aim of the GDR for its' entire existence was to be recodnized as a second German state on the same footing as the FRG ( which hilariously the SU constantly undermined because they made it implicitely clear that they considered Bonn's agreement to the Oder-Neisse-border to be more important than East-Berlins). The Basic was seen as the first step, and in order to make further headway (and later for economic aid) the GDR made at least some concessions from time to time. Which again was not revolutionary, but infinitely more than what the politics of confrontation the previous decades had achieved.

Gorlitz/Zgorzelec

Indeed, the pandemie is in general very tough on those living in border areas.
Crow 146 | 9,142
13 Jan 2021 #698
Now is obvious. The endgame. How could anybody thought Poland would force politics that differ from Serbia`s or vice versa. We are one package. One civilization.
Novichok 1 | 2,079
13 Jan 2021 #699
or simply making sure that they didn't receive things they were expecting, such as a university admission letter.

A person would have to do something to upset Stasi to deserve such an outcome.

Affirmative actions practiced by the Western leftists are worse. They are based on sex and race, things a person can't control and is stuck with forever. Yet, Stasi is bad, very bad, but Western leftists are proud, very proud. And so very "progressive".

I wonder if leftists like their pilots and cardiologists to be the products of affirmative action.
Tacitus 2 | 1,180
13 Jan 2021 #700
to do something to upset Stasi to deserve such an outcome.

The lows you stoop to never cease to amaze me.
Novichok 1 | 2,079
13 Jan 2021 #701
Trust me...I can go a lot lower. In the meantime, would you care to comment on the contents of my post?
No, I am not trying to be cute. In Poland, we had our version of your Stasi. Maybe not as brutal, but not boy scouts either. Yet, at no point did I or my family suffer any bad consequences. In fact, I left in 1966 or 23 years before Poland was free again.
Ironside 50 | 10,919
13 Jan 2021 #702
Of course we did.

All you did was to make quick buck on Soviets when and were you could and after it fell it made a mountain of money, Only Germany build their economical supremacy in Europe on the access to the eastern Europe market.

Few pennies dropped here and there it was nothing.

Helsinki accords that decreased tensions in Europe and forced the SU to accept certain human rights for the first time.

yeah sure but in fact they were doping whatever they wanted anyway after fooling a few people here and there, I'm pretty sure those making dough wasn't fooled nor cared for that stuff it. Western politicians were scoring points for their constituency that cared about such things.

All you did was to buy some people who claimed German origin. It made no difference at all for all there rest of the people.

Here on the subject of the EU. I have been saying that long enough:

youtu.be/Hsh2kCng_mQ
Tacitus 2 | 1,180
13 Jan 2021 #703
@Ironside

It made no difference at all for all there rest of the people

I am sure the thousands of people who got their freedom thanks those efforts appreciated it, however as I pointes out the Four Power Agreement, the Basic treaty and the Helsinki Accords affected the lifes of many more for better. Meanwhile the confrontational strategy of the previous decades yielded no results at all.
Ironside 50 | 10,919
13 Jan 2021 #704
I am sure the thousands of people

lol
What about tens of millions that had nothing out of it. Those agreement they were worth nothing. If you fooling yourself that it made some kind of a difference that is your problem.
Tacitus 2 | 1,180
13 Jan 2021 #705
What about tens of millions that had nothing out of it

Like I said, the Hellsinki Accords, the Four Power Agreement and the Basic treaty affected millions of people, the former had influenxe everybody who lived in the Eastern Bloc.

If you are blind to understand that detente achieved something, while confrontation did not, than that is on you.
Ironside 50 | 10,919
13 Jan 2021 #706
the former had influenxe everybody who lived in the Eastern Bloc.

how? Tell me how it influenced me or my parents.

Seems to me like you want to take a credit for something you have no idea about. Quite the opposite Star Wars and Regan pushing Soviets bankrupted them!!! Hell I think I would have known better what influenced my life than some ideologically biased kid!
Tacitus 2 | 1,180
15 Jan 2021 #707
how? Tell me how it influenced me or my parents.

I already did. The detente lessened the risk of war, and made it more difficult for the SU justify their opression. Obviously Poland some did benefit more from it than others - the East Germans the most since they were in a unique position - but overall it paid off quite. Again, no miracles, but infinitely more than the previous approach. Small steps were the best way to try and change Eastern Europe for better, once it became clear after 1968 that revolutions were not realistic for now.

Regan pushing Soviets bankrupted them

Reagan was smart enough to not simply go for a confrontational route, he instead offered to negotiate at every turn for which he could rely on the trust the West had gained with Eastern officials during detente. Many negotiators who were involved in the negotiations after the wall fell had gained much experience during the negotiations for the Helsinki Accords.

some ideologically biased kid!

I am not the one who lets his bias shown by disregarding the facts. I pointed to concrete results the detente delivered which you simply choose to ignore.
Ironside 50 | 10,919
15 Jan 2021 #708
. The detente lessened the risk of war,

Which give me nothing. A war would be much more preferable. Unless we talk a nuclear war. Probability of that ever happening was very low. Regardless of so called d├ętente that only achieved two objectives:

- let some people in the west to make money
- give a breather and needed know how to Soviets which allowed them to continue with their BS Soviet rule!
If anything that allowed Soviets to continue for a such a long time.
For me it done absolutely nothing expect for a joke that was around - who is a capitalist? A dude that sells a rope that Soviets will hang him with!

Reagan was smart

indeed, he knew how do go about negotiations. Nothing to do with all those pansies.

I am not the one who lets his bias shown

You are, those are not facts but your take on them. Which I point out are erroneous and out of touch with reality.
pawian 176 | 14,726
15 Jan 2021 #709
A war would be much more preferable.

What a nutter. How crazy can one be to advocate wars?
Crow 146 | 9,142
15 Jan 2021 #710
- give a breather and needed know how to Soviets which allowed them to continue with their BS Soviet rule!

I doubt best Russian strategists were able to predict EU would become like Soviet Union, and Russia would manage to prevail.

Must be that Svetovid cursed EU. See, Putin was wise to invest in St. Sava Church in Belgrade.
Tacitus 2 | 1,180
15 Jan 2021 #711
What a nutter.

Indeed. I suppose it is senseless to continue a rational discussion on this subject with someone who is so far removed from reality.

I mean let us not kid around. A purely conventional war - unrealistic as it is - would have likely killed millions of people and ended with the SU ruling all of Europe.


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