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15 years of Poland in the EU - assessment of pros and cons


cms neuf - | 1,755
15 Sep 2020 #331
Well you are out of it now Victor - the U.K. left in January.

And what a successful and optimistic 8 months it has been for Britain since then, a model of good government for the whole world to salute
Crow 139 | 8,302
15 Sep 2020 #332
Britain jioned the Common Market not the EU ,it was just a trading area.

My respect to the English greatly increased since Brexit. I thought English are stupid. But no, they are wise.
Bratwurst Boy 7 | 10,434
15 Sep 2020 #333
that is waht the Eu was designed for, to destroy the White Countries of Europe.

....and the time before the EU had been such a high point for the white countries of Europe. I believe to remember Poland got nearly annihilated...but I could err...
mafketis 24 | 8,743
15 Sep 2020 #334
Poland was a very poor country in 1990s, even poorer than Ukraine and Belarus.

How so? One of the weird features of the Soviet Empire was that living standards were noticeably higher in the satellites (incl Poland) than even in the capital of Moscow. When and how did Belarus and Ukraine surpass Poland since ending the USSR was like falling over a waterfall for them?

the reforms prevented the rise of corrupt Oligarchs like in the Ukraine or Russia.

EU accession had almost nothing to do with preventing the rise of Eastern style oligarchs.

One analysis I read was that the way privatization was carried out in Poland (and neighboring non-Soviet countries) was far more open and leveled the playing field so that organized criminals (which did increase in number and scale in the early 1990s) didn't have so many easy targets to prey on and so they stalled out at a pretty low level.

The Soviet path to privatization created a visible class of easy targets for the criminals to prey on.

And the soviet economy was more based on things like resource extraction (aided and abetted by bottomless German desire for Russian gas and other resources) which are far more likely to become corrupted and give rise to oligarchs.

There were other cultural factors too that helped prevent organized crime from dominating society as happened in Eastern Slavic countries.
Ironside 49 | 10,481
15 Sep 2020 #335
The prospect of EU

t the EU gave Poland

hmm a patter is emerging here - you sound like members of the same cult.
Dirk diggler 9 | 4,579
15 Sep 2020 #336
So what? Poland was a very poor country in 1990s, even poorer than Ukraine and Belarus.

ROFL!!!! Poland was definitely not poorer in the 90s than Ukraine and Belarus. Poland has always been wealthier than those countries and other post-Soviet countries like Romania, Bulgaria, etc. Check states on average wages in the 90s - Poland was higher than all those countries.
cms neuf - | 1,755
15 Sep 2020 #337
Go to your Ivy League library and check the figures for 1990. The USSR was richer per capita than Poland
mafketis 24 | 8,743
15 Sep 2020 #338
The USSR was richer per capita

But extreme inequality meant that general living standards (for all except the super rich) were higher in Poland...
Tacitus 2 | 1,031
15 Sep 2020 #339
EU accession had almost nothing to do

So you admit that EU ascenssion did have aomethibg to do with it? We can argue about the degree, but the prospect of EU membership certainly helped in this endeavour.

aided and abetted by bottomless German desire

You make it sound so negative, as if trade with the SU wasn't a way to decrease tensions in Europe and thus the danger of war, not to mention a tool to get the SU to agree to important treaties like the Helsinki accords? Not to mention that trade between the SU and West Germany remained on a very low level during most of the Cold War, even the gas imports to WG only really picked up in the last 1980s. Therefore the "bottomless German desire for gas" had no real impact on the Soviet Union's economic model.
mafketis 24 | 8,743
15 Sep 2020 #340
So you admit that EU ascenssion did have aomethibg to do with it?

the critical time was the very early 1990s when EU membership was not a realistic option

the "bottomless German desire for gas" had no real impact on the Soviet Union's economic model.

It's had an impact on the post Jelcyn model....
OP pawian 173 | 12,729
15 Sep 2020 #341
Very simple, maf. You are talking about living conditions while I meant the state`s budget and foreign debt burden on the Polish economy. 42 billion $ for a country whose annual export was worth 10 billion. Belarus or Ukraine didn`t have to repay such a giant loan and their export revenues were higher than Poland`s because they could export products to other Soviet republics while Poland couldn`t do it, neither to ex USSR or the EU.

Maf, do you get it now or still not? hahaha

Poland was definitely not poorer in the 90s than Ukraine and Belarus.

Of course you are wrong. Be careful now - do you really mean Poland or Poles, like maf???

but the prospect of EU membership certainly helped in this endeavour.

Of course, it did, there is nothing to discuss here but biased anti EU fools can`t swallow certain obvious truths.
OP pawian 173 | 12,729
15 Sep 2020 #342
Dirk, as much as I appreciate your ardently patriotic input, let me give you one piece of advice - check things before you type sth coz now it is the tenth time within a month or so that I have to correct your childish claims. You have to remember one thing - Poles who have spent all their lives in Poland know a lot about their country. hahahaha



mafketis 24 | 8,743
15 Sep 2020 #343
Yeah, I see it from that perspective but I instinctively react badly to anyone talking about how poor Poland is/was. I've heard enough "Poland is such a poor country!" rhetoric to last several lifetimes and so when it seems to be on the horizon I shoot first and ask questions later....

Certain budget issues in Ukraine were in better shape in Ukraine in the early 1990s but the bandit wars and rise of thieving oligarchs took care of that very efficiently... while Poland managed to avoid both.
Mr Grunwald 23 | 1,662
16 Sep 2020 #344
@mafketis
I just *shrug*
Most of it is just ignorance, thankfully foreign diplomats have a lot more to do then creating a pretext to invade Poland. One can never sleep about it tho
Dirk diggler 9 | 4,579
16 Sep 2020 #345
. You have to remember one thing - Poles who have spent all their lives in Poland know a lot about their country. hahahaha

And you have to remember this - that chart you posted is the country's purchasing power parity, not gross wages in each country nor the real/nominal GDP of the country. The PPP of the average Pole is over $31,000 yet the average income is less then half that. However, due to the cost of goods the average Pole can buy what would cost $31,000 worth of stuff due to basket goods being cheap in Poland. It basically means that a Pole making $13k a year can buy $31k worth of stuff in the country, or would be equal to an American making $31k a year and being able to buy $31k stuff as generally the USA is considered the "benchmark" in most basket indexes like the Big Mac Index. Yet Greece has a PPP of $29,000, but real wages are closer to $17,000 - even though they make more money than the average Pole they can't buy as many basket goods because they're more expensive in Greece. A higher PPP doesn't that the average Pole is necessarily richer than the average Greek - their purchasing power is similar but the Greek makes far more money, hence the Greek is actually "richer" in terms of income. Same thing with Ukraine and Poland. The GDP by PPP of Ukraine would be higher because basket goods were and remain way cheaper than in Poland. So even though the average gross wages in Ukraine were slightly lower than Poland, Ukraine's PPP was higher for a few years because goods are so cheap there. Poland quickly beat Ukraine's PPP because wages rose quicker than in Ukraine and hence Poles could buy more basket goods thereby growing PPP rapidly.

Furthermore, Poland had a FAR HIGHER GDP than Ukraine every year except 1990. Ukraine's GDP was higher than Poland's in 1990 and by 1991 Poland was higher and every year after that. And as far as Belarus, Poland's GDP was 3x higher from the get go in 1990. So now, Poland was not poorer than Ukraine and Belarus in the 90's.
OP pawian 173 | 12,729
16 Sep 2020 #346
that chart you posted is the country's purchasing power parity

Yes, of course, that is the best measure coz it shows real financial opportunities. So I don`t understand why you went on with a useless lecture explaining what PPP is - everybody knows those things - let`s not waste time for such childishness.

Poland quickly beat Ukraine's PPP

That isn`t the topic of the debate how quickly Poland beat Ukraine. Our debate started with a general question who was richer/ poorer. Let me remind you my words from post 328 :Poland was a very poor country in 1990s, even poorer than Ukraine and Belarus.

Key words : poorer in 1990s. And my graph shows exactly that: Poland`s PPP GDP was lower than Ukraine`s for 4 years: 1990, 1991, 1992, 1993. Can you see it?

Besides, do you understand Polish? So, watch this video below from Polish communist news in 1989 - people complain there is no bread or other basic stuff like safety razors, batteries, matches and they have to queue for hours to get them. Guys, what standard of living are we talking about if you can`t buy bread or fekking matches? Were there such problems in Ukraine or Belarus in 1989 and later?

Do you want to watch another video from 1990 where people complain bread was too expensive after gigantic price rises introduced by the democratic government? Do you think Ukrainians had similar problems then?

Of course not, that is why can I ask you to check your sources better before you undertake a discussion with me on matters which refer to history of Poland?

youtu.be/Oy9tTfWpqw0
Dirk diggler 9 | 4,579
17 Sep 2020 #347
:Poland was a very poor country in 1990s, even poorer than Ukraine and Belarus.

Which is patently untrue by both measure of GDP, PPP, and average wages throughout the whole decade.

Poland`s PPP GDP was lower than Ukraine`s for 4 years: 1990, 1991, 1992, 1993. Can you see it?

Of course I can see it. PPP doesn't mean much unless it's in context. It's just a measure of what the average person can afford to buy locally within their country with their average salary versus the domestic cost of basket goods prices on the international market usually pegged to the US basket and US dollar. Even if you make a 30% higher salary than your neighbor but everything is 2x as expensive you're going to have a lower PPP than your neighbor. That's why Switzerland's PPP isn't all that impressive despite having the highest wages in Europe - everything is expensive as hell there. Poland, Hungary, Kazakhstan, Romania, Russia and many more have very similar PPP per capita - yet hardly anyone would say that those countries are economically equal when Poland has a far higher GDP and far higher average wages than all of them, but a lower GDP than Russia. Same thing with Russia - Russia's PPP is similar to the other countries, yet the wages are far lower but PPP is high because goods are cheap and also Russia is far richer than those by GDP
OP pawian 173 | 12,729
17 Sep 2020 #348
Which is patently untrue by both measure of GDP, PPP, and average wages throughout the whole decade.

Now you are stressing it has to be the whole decade. It is a wrong approach, I never meant the decade, for me 4 years at the beginning of 1990s are enough.
Dirk diggler 9 | 4,579
17 Sep 2020 #349
When you say 1990's that clearly means a decade...

Ukraine is the same today as it was in the 90's. It's an East European post-commie **** hole that never managed to get out of a rut and properly develop. Today the only worthwhile things in the Ukraine are the defense industry (and even that isn't what it use to be), fees for gas/oil transport, cheap hookers, and counterfeit cigarettes. No wonder half the country wants to join with Russia.
OP pawian 173 | 12,729
17 Sep 2020 #350
When you say 1990's that clearly means a decade...

Of course not. Who told or taught you that? Try to think logically - are the years 1990, 1991, 1992 and 1993 in 1990s?? Yes, they are. So, what`s the problem?

Ukraine is the same today as it was in the 90's.

Of course, I never denied that.
Dirk diggler 9 | 4,579
17 Sep 2020 #351
re the years 1990, 1991, 1992 and 1993 in 1990s?? Yes, they are.

And so are 1994 to 1999...

So, what`s the problem?

?????
OP pawian 173 | 12,729
17 Sep 2020 #352
?????

Never mind. We had a little misunderstanding whether to take into account a decade or only a few years but the issue isn`t worth devoting so much time to it, really.


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