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EU triggers Article 7, could strip Poland of voting rights

cms 9 | 1,255
23 Dec 2017 #61
It does affect the EU because they wish for EU citizens and companies to be treated fairly in Poland. That means having an independent judiciary.
Ziutek 9 | 160
23 Dec 2017 #62
It's exactly the sort of issue that should be concerning the EU. The single market relies on a common regulatory framework. Any regulatory framework

relies on the rule of law. Therefore, if the rule of law is threatened, as the EU believes it is in Poland, the single market is threatened.
kondzior 12 | 1,242
23 Dec 2017 #63
And the funny thing is, much of this recent rise in popularity of leading party in the polls is because of Timmermans' and Verhofstadt's constant chimp outs against Poland.

I mean, I get what their plan was. And it wasn't even bad idea at the beginning.
You see, currently ruling party won the elections with respectable advantage, and since post-commie leftist parties self-destroyed themselves and managed to just barely NOT pass over the threshold, all of this combined with D'Hondt method of allocating seats gave PiS absolute majority in the Sejm. So the plan was:

1) street protests all day, every day
2) add pressure from European Union
3) demand snap elections
4) best case scenario: form a new "everyone against PiS", pro-EU, nice and obedient government, worst case: force PiS to form a minority government and block them at every turn, whenever possible.

And sure, there was a non-zero chance it might have succeed, but the street protests fizzled out after few months and pressure from EU turned out to be rather ineffective. So everyone assumed that EU will quickly make amends and the opposition will switch to playing a long game, by proposing some constructive programs in order to regain hearts and minds for the next election in four years.

Except, that didn't happen - EU doubled down, basically calling anything that the Polish government do anti-democratic and opposition showed that it is incapable of doing anything other than b!tching and moaning.

So in short, EU is doing the same thing over and over, expecting different results. Not a sign of good mental health.
Ironside 50 | 11,257
23 Dec 2017 #64
18 months later the EU has called their bluff and told them no access to the single market without accepting EU law. Now the Brits are begging to be allowed to stay.

I think you got it wrong.
Anyway business is business EU or not. If some countries in the EU would want to make a war against Poland using their economy that is their choice.

our approach is to start from the obvious guilt of certain individuals and proceed from there.

Your assumption is wrong. I have said that in some cases the guilt is obvious but I have never said that all the proper proceedings should be overlooked or bypassed. However in the circumstances where judiciary system like in Poland is corrupt, unaccountable and blatantly on the side defending status quo (i.e. post-communist cronies/mafia style) it would be hard to find an honest judge that would deliver justice to the said individual.

Okay how will the judicial "reform" actually address that?

It will make judges accountable to some degree. It is not as good as burning it all to the ground and build from scratch but it is good enough for a start.
kondzior 12 | 1,242
23 Dec 2017 #65
In the next chapter of our story, Poland is getting scared of being taken over by an infamous "The Bear", so they turn to the west for help. This time it's not Mutti, but Mom. If only Freud knew about Poland back then.

Of course plumbing is an important matter for the citizens of the UK. It comes as no surprise that they are seeking to save the future of their toilets.
Ziutek 9 | 160
23 Dec 2017 #66
Your assumption is wrong.

It's not an assumption. You wrote

Well, as he is clearly guilty any independent judge worth his salt would found him guilty.

The logical inference is that any judge who doesn't find him guilty is not worth his salt. As noted above, a future government could decide that any judge who didn't find

Beata Szydło guilty of breaking the constitution was not worth their salt and take appropriate action against them. Would you be happy with that?
kondzior 12 | 1,242
23 Dec 2017 #67
Think of the courts! Think of the poor judges! Think of democracy!

Meanwhile in Poland: mini van driver responsible for the death of 5 of his passengers in a crash sentenced to 3 years.
A judge who was convicted for sexual assault got "suspended", which means he is getting half of his normal pay (which still ends up being at least 3 times the minimum wage) for doing nothing, and is demanding 50K PLN from a news website for "mental anguish" they caused him by publishing articles about the case. He had to pay 10K to the victim.

They should all be hanged in the windows of the courts, maybe the next ones would think twice.
Ironside 50 | 11,257
23 Dec 2017 #68
The logical inference is that any judge who doesn't find him guilty is not worth his salt.

Well if someone killed someone in front of your eyes, would you assume that the guilty verdict would be only a formality and if he is not that there is something wrong with a judge? Why overcomplicating that issue? Just because you think that traitors and scum are fine in your eyes? Well, there is nothing I can say to you...

Beata Szydło

Why that assumption that I care much about Beata or any other politician or a party? I want to use this opportunity as a pivotal point to talk about constitution in Poland and all garbage spewed about it by so called opposition.

Frist, tinkering with the legal system in a country by its gov. is not a treason. So there is no comparison.
Secondly constitution in Poland is just an absolute rubbish and from the legal point of view absolutely worthless. Enough said, it should be done away with as fast as possible.

Thirdly all traitors and criminals and scum should be severely punished first and then we can talk about (subtle issues) fine points of overstepping authority.
OP Crow 148 | 9,393
23 Dec 2017 #69
Poles supported Serbians against Turks. Saved us, literally. In turn, Serbs supported Poles in struggle against Teutons, Russians, Austro-Hungaria, Soviet Union and EU. Are we even? Say that we aren`t even
mafketis 30 | 9,495
23 Dec 2017 #70
It will make judges accountable to some degree.

By making them stay in the good graces of the current government?
OP Crow 148 | 9,393
24 Dec 2017 #71
They also helped force this issue hoping it will turn the public against the EU (rather than against them).

You mistaking here. I think that non can expose and turn public against EU better then Franco-Germanics and Anglos. Sure, Anglos retreated in their own purgatory but, before that greatly themselves contributed to ruination of EU.

On this one I am with Poland`s leadership. They won elections. They do have right to reform judiciary system of Poland. I doubt that there could be found any expert in the world who may say how are current EU`s or any other judiciary system perfect. Plus, Poles do have tradition of their own approach to democracy and freedom. Tradition that, BDW, as I already said, was true example of what is democracy at a time when western Europeans used their hands and fingers to eat (as it is well documented in medieval sources), or even before USA was even formed.

So, why not let Poles organize their own country?

Doing these kind of things to Poland is political suicide of EU among Poles. If EU continue like this we would witness coordination of Poland and Russia similar to that when back in past Sweden threatened both- Poland and Russia. Essentially, Poland and Russia would respond on situation by splinting wide region on Polish and Russian zones of influence. Meaning, Russia (ie Eurasian Union), as it is already clear, won`t make obstacles to formation of Intermarium. What is also clear, in a world that transiting into Multi-Polar world, Vatican as force that tend to be universal and planetary also won`t complaint when Intermarium form around Poland. USA? USA simply won`t have other option then to support Intermarium.

This is how Poland escaping to EU (ie western Europeans) and surviving as Poland, within Intermarium.

See, assassination of Lech Kaczinsky didn`t prevent this development. Slavs (ie Sarmats) shall prevail.
jon357 67 | 16,793
24 Dec 2017 #72
See, assassination of Lech Kaczinsky didn`t prevent this developmen

Especially as it didnt happen.
OP Crow 148 | 9,393
24 Dec 2017 #73
No. I was joking, of course. He just died accidentally. Conveniently accidentally.
jon357 67 | 16,793
24 Dec 2017 #74
Quite inconveniently even, sińce he was a failed one-term president who was about to be voted out of office.
OP Crow 148 | 9,393
24 Dec 2017 #75
You want to say how he did service to Tusk and died? Grave to Lech and Brussels to Tusk. Is that it? Then Tusk could do whatever Tusk and his sponsors wanted.

But, patriots again won elections in Poland and ruined plans. Plus, Multi-Polar world and drop of western European power and influence.
OP Crow 148 | 9,393
24 Dec 2017 #76
And how did western Europeans started this century, it was quite optimistic for them. Powerful economies, concentration of mass media, all seamed well. They could assimilate complete Eastern Europe in just 50 years peacefully or establish control with local conflicts such was instigated in Yugoslavia or Ukraine or as is obviously desired in Poland- this judiciary issue being just reason for making problems. And it was just then, these last 2-3 years, when world accelerated its evolution into the Multi-Polar model, when moron politicians from western Europe itself started to call for arrival of Islamic migrants into Europe and more precisely- into western Europe, when all started to crumble for the western Europeans. Stooped.

See, there is the saying from the Bible: ``Do what you want but you won`t do it as long as you want it.``
OP Crow 148 | 9,393
25 Dec 2017 #77
Yes. Some people are by default blind for reality but, nevertheless they likes to patronize.

How those people grow up? With what grandeur fairy tales? Must be that is world, by someone or just like that, segmented on regions that receives different news. But anyway, what they expect? That we Slavs (ie Sarmatians) subjugate our venerable civilization to their malevolence? They are idiots. Imbeciles.
25 Dec 2017 #78

WTF is that? You understand nationalists like crow are often Leftists, communist, socialists ?
NoToForeigners 10 | 1,032
25 Dec 2017 #79
Leftists, communist, socialists

Exactly Elites in Brussels
25 Dec 2017 #80
And PiS in Poland.
OP Crow 148 | 9,393
25 Dec 2017 #81
Its very stupid from EU to play nasty jokes with Poles. For that, EU would face destine of one Ottomans, Austro-Hungaria or Soviets. Oblivion.

WTF is that? You understand nationalists like crow are often Leftists, communist, socialists ?

Shoke, you calling me a nationalist?

No, I am rather tribal man. Simple tribal man. Rather tribal then corporative. At least, as long as I can choose myself.

Exactly Elites in Brussels

Corrupt corporative servants.

And PiS in Poland.

Yes. And PiS, too. In general. But see, how Multi-Polar world consolidate, rich individuals who sponsoring PiS starting to dig for themselves rather then for some unknown corporation. Its process of becoming self-aware. Awaken. I say, better our rich people then foreigners. If we preserve what is ours we can at least hope to go up the pyramid and one day ourselves rule within our own civilization, within our own culture, rule in our Slavic (ie Sarmatian) languages. If we lose ourselves, we can expect our children to be only servants and slaves to foreigners. To foreigners who harmed ancestors and still harming our civilization, stealing future from our children, consider us to be their colony, foreigners who grabbing for themselves.
pawian 178 | 15,893
18 Mar 2020 #82
EU triggers Article 7, could strip Poland of voting rights

It took them a long time. The final decision will be taken soon.
Rich Mazur 4 | 3,159
18 Mar 2020 #83

Despite its name, the ruling Law and Justice party is no fan of judicial independence

...because the "independent" judiciary is tyranny the people have no control over and a recourse from their decisions - even if devastating to the nation.

I would be for "judicial independence" if there was death penalty for the judges who would try to be legislators. Next day execution, no appeals, and I am good.
pawian 178 | 15,893
18 Mar 2020 #84
Hmm, you must be talking about your Am experience. In Poland it is different - the independent judiciary are saving us from PiS` tyranny.
Rich Mazur 4 | 3,159
18 Mar 2020 #85
I didn't know Poland is a totalitarian country again.
pawian 178 | 15,893
18 Mar 2020 #86
If PiS get what they want, she will be. When I said: are saving us, I meant the process of containing PiS` bloody intentions is still going on.
Rich Mazur 4 | 3,159
18 Mar 2020 #87
OK. This means that, but for your judiciary, PiS would make Poland a totalitarian country. Bad PiS.
Joker 2 | 1,716
18 Mar 2020 #88
Will this trigger a PolExit? The EU already lost the UK, who's next?
cms neuf - | 1,585
19 Mar 2020 #89
Yes - this is the perfect moment to weaken our currency, end investment and take a massive economic leap in the dark
OP Crow 148 | 9,393
19 Mar 2020 #90
Central Europe, people. Central Europe from Baltic to Balkan. That is for Poland and not to be enteral younger molested partner within the EU.

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