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EU triggers Article 7, could strip Poland of voting rights


cms 9 | 1,271
21 Dec 2017 #31
Im not sure you are the best person to lecturr about values
gumishu 11 | 5,318
21 Dec 2017 #32
The system starts from the impartiality

and how do you know if the judge is impartial when a verdict on a political figure is passed? we had plenty of politically motivated verdicts in this country before even though the judiciary was presumably independent - you may not be familiar with them cause you haven't lived here all the time since 1989 - the same is valid for the verdicts of the Constitutional Tribunal but again you haven't been here to judge it - yes the judiciary in Poland was independent - including from logic and decency
Ziutek 9 | 160
21 Dec 2017 #33
You have no argument against the point I'm making so you decide to go on a fishing trip through my past posts to dredge up some kompromat. How very pre-1989 of you.
gumishu 11 | 5,318
21 Dec 2017 #34
quis custodiet ipsos custodes - have you heard this Latin saying - it very much applies to judges when they are allowed an absolute self-rule like it was in Poland up to recnetly
OP Crow 139 | 8,148
21 Dec 2017 #35
Many on the west of Europe who now lecturing Poland, should have in mind that Poland, in era that culminated with `Sarmatism`, actually gave founding principles to modern-day democracy. Democracy and freedom is in the being of Poland.
OP Crow 139 | 8,148
21 Dec 2017 #37
On this planet >

Earth
kondzior 12 | 1,066
22 Dec 2017 #38
Wait. EU accuses Poland of being not democratic enough... and their solution is to remove said country's right to vote democratically. That is HILARIOUS. Don't they see how that looks?
Atch 17 | 3,232
22 Dec 2017 #39
If that happens - it hasn't yet - it will happen democratically by a vote. The triggering of Article 7 has been brought about by a vote to do so, made by Poland's fellow Members of the European Parliament. Many posters here seem to be quite confused about how the EU works. For example I'm Irish and the Irish MEPs who are elected by the Irish people, all voted to trigger Article 7. So it's the other countries who will be depriving Poland of their voting rights, if it comes to that.
NoToForeigners 10 | 1,054
22 Dec 2017 #40
Love the EU lol. They do all things right to unite Poles against their opression. Nationalism grows partly thanks to Juncker and that other Belgian who looks like Hitler's kin.

Great to see that. We got rid of Germans, got rid of Soviets and we will get rid of EUSSR.

Wait. EU accuses Poland of being not democratic enough... and their solution is to remove said country's right to vote democratically.

Recently Denmark voted against UN and will stop allowing refugees into their country. Will the 7.1 directive get triggered in case of Denmark too? You bet it won't. The reason behind it is that EU commies clearly see that importance of Poland rises and that Poland is the leader of nationalism ( it is nothing bad regardless of how hard leftist media try to demonize that term) and is the real threat to their selfish interests. Denmark, Austria, Catalonia and soon more countries are just following our footsteps.
TheOther 6 | 3,818
22 Dec 2017 #41
Will the 7.1 directive get triggered in case of Denmark too?

No, because...

"The Schengen Borders Code provides Member States with the capability of temporarily reintroducing border control at the internal borders in the event that a serious threat to public policy or internal security has been established."

ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/what-we-do/policies/borders-and-visas/schengen/reintroduction-border-control_en
Ziutek 9 | 160
23 Dec 2017 #42
Great to see that. We got rid of Germans, got rid of Soviets and we will get rid of EUSSR.

Brexit's not going well is it? Do you envisage that Polexit would be better?
mafketis 23 | 8,525
23 Dec 2017 #43
They do all things right to unite Poles against their opression

A. The idea that the EU is oppressing Poland is ridiculously stupid

B. Opinion polls show a majority want to stay in the EU and more blame Poland for its current problems with article 7 than other actors...
NoToForeigners 10 | 1,054
23 Dec 2017 #44
I used EUSSR. That means "we will get rid of the current EU".

No, because...

Just BUAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHHAAHAHA.

The EU commies can use different terms to fulfill their evil goals. Example: War in Syria is over yet they keep calling Syrians refugees. IMHO Syrians are now as "refugees" as Ukrainians but EU won't call Ukrainians ones coz it would mean that Poland accepted many times more refugees than quotas and still be opressing Poland to stop the Avalanche of nationalism and love for freedom and independence wich is against their vision of Europe becoming federation.
kondzior 12 | 1,066
23 Dec 2017 #45
If that happens - it hasn't yet - it will happen democratically by a vote.

Leftwingers love it. After Brexit and Trump internet was full of leftists going how democracy is great but referendums need to be banned and candidates need to be chosen by elites rather than people. For democracy.
cms 9 | 1,271
23 Dec 2017 #46
It is more subtle than that. I think the perfectly sensible point that people have is that the yes/no referendum is not suitable to extremely complex issues, with literally thousands of hidden consequences and something that is irreversible. There is also the problem that the people who call the referendum we are not willing to implement his results.
kondzior 12 | 1,066
23 Dec 2017 #47
So, if a club is taking your right to have a say in said club, why would you want to still be a member of it?

For the money we get? That will run out sooner rather than later judging by the current economic approach by the Sugar Daddy Germany.

So I say, we got as much money out of EU as we could, and when the deal is not profitable then just bail, as any reasonable person would do. The talk about common Europe is good for neo-commies from France, but we know deep down that this ain't gonna fly, they don't see us as equal to them.

Its back to "Polak Węgier dwa bratanki", we can live with that.
cms 9 | 1,271
23 Dec 2017 #48
But That time will never arrive because the money that we get is not just what is handed out in the form of grants, the mutual trade between the 28 countries of the EU makes them all richer, all safer and all with better prospects.

Unless you think you're better off just trading with Hungarians. By the way, if the Hungarian opposition can get its act together over the next six months I have a good chance of taking away Orbans absolute majority.
Ironside 49 | 10,373
23 Dec 2017 #49
The system starts from the impartiality of the judge

What if judges are blatantly partial, politicized and corrupted as is the case in Poland? In all they're running amok as they are practically untouchable in the current system.

The guilty of treason is a public figure and his guilt there for anyone to assess for themselves. As to his other transgressions of the criminal nature, those should be judged in a court of law.

It is more subtle than that

Nothing subtle about it. Lefties believe in democracy as long as it works in their favour. If it doesn't it is populism, fascism and issues too complex to be handled by the popular vote.

The only 'subtleties' in all this totalitarian lefties nonsense is the way they try to sell that BS to the people.

Opinion polls show a majority want to stay in the EU

I wouldn't put any credence to the polls in general and especially in Poland. If you think about TVN poll, that is clearly just a propaganda spin.

My take ( I clearly say it is a guess but an educated guess that includes intimate knowledge of the Polish people) is that about 70% want Poland to say in EU but not for any price. On the other hand 60 to 70% blame the EU for the all those happenings.
mafketis 23 | 8,525
23 Dec 2017 #50
What if judges are blatantly partial, politicized and corrupted as is the case in Poland? In all they're running amok as they are practically untouchable in the current system.

That's PiS party line rhetoric with no real basis in reality.

if the Hungarian opposition can get its act together over the next six months

Doubt that will happen unless Orban actually starts enacting policy that most people don't like. Several months ago I was talking with a Hungarian who also has Polish citizenship, they're not crazy about PiS but they tend to admire and support Orban. Aslo don't forget that the government he replaced was far worse than anything Poland has had post 1990...
Ironside 49 | 10,373
23 Dec 2017 #51
That's PiS party line rhetoric with no real basis in reality.

quite the opposite. I can name at least a one judgment that has been passed in the current system that is so blatantly unjust, brazen, partisan and in your face that you couldn't make it up. What more the judge who passed such a mockery of a justice and a common sense is still well and IS a judge - the poof was in the pudding mafketis. Your off-cuff remark about party line doesn't really cut it and you know it. Enjoy the pudding.
kondzior 12 | 1,066
23 Dec 2017 #52
the money that we get is not just what is handed out in the form of grants, the mutual trade between the 28 countries of the EU makes them all richer, all safer and all with better prospects.

At the end of the day, Poland is a country of 38 million people, which makes it not only a considerable and growing market, but a huge investment location for a bunch of western (and especially German) companies. These companies are not going to throw away this opportunity, especially in uncertain times. They like their stability and their extra profits, and it is not like they can get the specific combination of skilled and affordable workers they require anywhere else in the neighbourhood. Poland is good for them. All these investments are more important than some joke politicians in the European Parliament, or even the Commission.
cms 9 | 1,271
23 Dec 2017 #53
Exactly the same arguments came from Brexit supporters - that Britain was too big a market fot the other 27 to ignore.

18 months later the EU has called their bluff and told them no access to the single market without accepting EU law. Now the Brits are begging to be allowed to stay.

And that was Britain which has far more leverage than Poland would
gumishu 11 | 5,318
23 Dec 2017 #54
That's PiS party line rhetoric with no real basis in reality.

I don't know where you live or what you read and watch if you are of this opinion
kondzior 12 | 1,066
23 Dec 2017 #55
Now the Brits are begging to be allowed to stay.

Poles are not Brits.
First to fight kurwa
mafketis 23 | 8,525
23 Dec 2017 #56
What if judges are blatantly partial, politicized and corrupted as is the case in Poland? In all they're running amok as they are practically untouchable in the current system

Okay how will the judicial "reform" actually address that?

How will it make the system less politicized?

How will it make the system less corrupt?
Ziutek 9 | 160
23 Dec 2017 #57
@Ironside
Your approach is to start from the obvious guilt of certain individuals and proceed from there. PiS will not govern forever. How would you feel if a future

government decided that Beata Szydło was obviously guilty of unconstitutional behaviour in not publishing the judgements of the Constitutional Tribunal and punished her without a trial? If what is obvious to one person were obvious to all, there would be not need of a court system at all.
NoToForeigners 10 | 1,054
23 Dec 2017 #58
I don't know where you live or what you read and watch if you are of this opinion

Guy has absolutely nothing to do with Poland and us Poles.
gumishu 11 | 5,318
23 Dec 2017 #59
mafketis happens to live in Poland and for over 20 years now - which makes the question even more valid

How will it make the system less corrupt?

ever heard of the Disciplinary Chamber of the Supereme Court introduced by the new law
kondzior 12 | 1,066
23 Dec 2017 #60
Okay how will the judicial "reform" actually address that?

This is not an issue that should concern EU in any way

Its kinda like your boss telling you that you will not be getting paid since you decided to start exercising.

And yes, I know that EU wants to be able to meddle and control internal issues, they want that very much.


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