Sikorski doctrine - Eastern Europe under threat. Poland's foreign policy.

No the South Ossetian people are not Georgians. They are an Indo-European people not a Turkic one like the Georgians. They declared independence but the Georgians wanted to continue to dominate them. So what if South Ossetia was part of Georgia during the time of the Soviet Union? The borders of Soviet republics are sacrosanct? No I think not. The South Ossetians were discriminated against in the newly independent Georgia and they had every right to declare independence. It is truly a boon that an unadulterated remnant of the great Sarmatian nation survived in those mountains, and if they want to be free they should be, and it is well and fitting that another nation with Sarmatian roots helped them.

Neither are "Samer" but they still live in Norway... (and in Sweden,Finland and Russia) Just like Khurdish people!


Ahhhaha...


How? By Laws? Or by Un-official laws?


You better be good or ill ask Crowie to kick your azz! He is a real pan-slavist/pro-sarmatia ! :)

Georgian language is definitely indoeuropean! If one so easily awards independence to south Ossetians why wouldn't Russia let them unite with North Ossetians who continue to live within Russia's borders? And then what about Chechens? Did not they wish to be independent?

having nukes will bring them to negotiation table no nukes will get you obliterated

Exactly.


Russian Federation consist of over 80 national territories with people speaking different language, practicing different religions and having completely separate history. They are also willing to live in independent states. Why does Russia poke the nose in the Georgian state affairs while keeping other nations under its control? Russia appeared in the Caucusus as occupying and destructing force only in 1800s. It has no business to decide the unity of the Georgian state by bringing in army. Chechens declared independance in 1991 and look what Russia did to them - it bombed the whole country, set its own government there, killed and raped thousands of innocent civilians and now you want to say that it has the right to tell Georgians what to do in their own country? Total BS.

Sikorski is a bored and paranoid moron if he believes that. Go and get that man stacking shelves in Tesco, put him to good use.

The South Ossetians awarded themselves independence by declaring it in 1990 and fighting for it since that time including weathering a massive attack by the Georgians in 2006. Perhaps you should ask the wounded Ossets how easily awarded their independence has been. Indeed Russia should let the South Ossetians unite with their Northern brethren, and yes Russian behavior elsewhere in the Caucasuses has been despicable, but their coming to the aid of the Ossets was not. Georgia should be condemned for its brutality towards Ossetia just as Russia should be condemned for its brutality towards Chechyna. This is called being consistent. Those of you who condemn Russia when it brutalizes a legitimate independence movement, but defend Georgia when it brutalizes a legitimate independence movement are being inconsistent. I suspect it is a reflexively anti-Russian attitude that accounts for your lack of consistency.

Very true! Yeltsin made a blunder in allowing Chechnya to move towards independence and then he started a war to put it right. However, Russian actions in Georgia were not really disproportionate. Sikorski and Co likely tried to seize that moment but in snake-like fashion. I wonder if he'd have the bravery to outline his position to Putin's face.

I don't believe - I know that this is true, Seanus, and I am not bored or a moron. Call Brussels and tell them disband NATO - since according to you NATO is paranoid too, right? Why bother? The world is all flowers and happy people, right? You lived in the region a few years and trust me, you have no idea (or pretend not to have, which is more likely) about how serious it is. Poland should keep its defense up and I would suggest on creating a regional defense system comprising local countries (the Baltic states, Belarus, Poland, Ukraine, Moldova) to ensure some degree of safety. Because if bad times come, the French who are selling warships to Russian Federations or Spain and Portugal which are very interested in the well-being of the Eastern Europe, won't come to rescue. We have to defend ourselves. And as safety of Ukraine is important for Poland, the same way safety of Poland is important for Ukraine. We both are interested - not out of love, but sober reasoning. Look back in history - this is exactly what we missed - unified defense - huge mistake of various historical figures. Think about it.

I wouldn't say NATO, as a collective, is/are paranoid. I just need to remind people, yourself included, that WWII finished some time ago. Why would Russia attack Poland? Give me one good reason.

Too many states: the Baltics are too weak and can't contribute anything substantial
to such defence system (same thing with Moldova) and Belarus is too unpredictable.
Not to mention that Lithuanians seem to hate us...

Polish Lithuanian Diplomatic War? At last. - page 13

...so, forget all those Baltics, Moldavias and Belorussias and let's stick to a strong
Polish-Ukrainian alliance. Together we are a force to be reconed with. However,
Russians are very good at turning us against each other, so we would have to invest
heavily in counter-intelligence and counter-propaganda to really make this work.
It is possible though. With Germany (hopefully) and Vysehrad countries on our side,
our dear Russian, Slavic brothers would find it difficult to subdue us again.

I wish Nathan were wrong, Seanus.
I like Russian culture, I've got many Russian friends but ... there is still something dangerous about their collective mentality and their "imperial drive".

Only close neighbors like Ukraine or Poland are able to understand it and on the contrary, the most false picture of the Russian political objectives is being promoted by German wannabe experts on Russia.

Believe me, Russia is still an old fashion empire which must have its vassals and occupied lands.
It's not like US modern net-type structure of interdependencies.

Who doesn't?

My feelings towards Russia are these of distant, though cordial, esteem :)

I don't buy that at all, Borrka. Sorry for saying this but it's downright arrogant to pretend that only Poles and Ukrainians understand their mentality. Others may not have experienced it so readily but they are still capable of understanding demonic actions.

Russia has Kalingrad as a station post. Why make a play for more? Seriously, I say this tactfully and as a friend of Poland, get over your paranoia on the Russian question. I say with great sensitivity to yourself, Borrka, please try and move forward (I'm aware of your losses and you have my sincerest condolences).

I think the constant harping back to the past says more about the Poles at present than about the Russians.

Nah...you can speak open with Borrka...she is tough...she can take it! :)

She? He, I think. I just don't like this nonsense that only Slavs can analyse international relations between Slavs. It doesn't cut the mustard.

Ooops!

Who pays Sikorski for trotting out the same old nonsense? The man is eloquent enough but he is a devious rat. He prevaricates in his speech and isn't original at all. EE under threat? ROTFL.

And a busted flush.

Remember him standing toe-to-toe with Condi Rice when the missile shield deal got signed? Hmmm, I'm thinking at the time, there's a guy who's right out of his depth. The recent wikileak stating that the US didn't even intend to arm the bloody things doesn't exactly do wonders for his credibility either.

Precisely, alex. It was a tactical 'weapon' employed by the US. They wanted to undermine Poland's relationship with Russia. It was all a bit fishy anyway. Russia got angry, even when their inspectors would have been given full access. It's a bit like nuclear inspectors being given access to Iran's nuclear plants but still the case is made against the ME power. I wish they'd just drop it.

Those who engage in such practices should be duty bound to put 'BS expert' down on their resume/CV.

Like Belgium and Netherlands in the WWII?! Are we followers of Maginot? Every single state is important. I agree, though, that at the beginning it should be more concentrated.


Who is?


Absolutely.


Very important point, Torq. They work on internet forums, TV, radio, newspapers - they pour huge amounts of money into propaganda. Simply incredible amounts of money to keep us arguing - this is what they have always been doing.


Pragmatism is something Germans and Czechs won't refuse to deal with and we will offer exactly that if we form something worth to be taken into consideration. Not otherwise.


I am glad that in between 1945 and 2010 there were no wars in Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, Georgia, Chechnia. You reassured me and others completely, Seanus. Thank you very much.


Why did it in the past on multiple occasions? Have anything changed? Did Russia become more religious or Poland less attractive? Seanus, you are out of touch with this world.


Borya, he won't understand it because he won't even try.


Agree. The Western world is not interested in Poland, the Baltic states, Ukraine, Georgia and others. They need some dumb and backward empire like Russia which will f*ck up all possible competition for the West and keep the lands under a single control under conditions of a pool for natural resources and cheap labor. Where will they dump their exports if there are more developed states which besides producing the same products at a better price will additionally create a competitive force in the world market? Their well-off being will be downgraded. So, it is better to support a bad boy like Russia which will make sure to keep everyone around in the same backward state by creating constant conflicts: South Ossetia - in Georgia, Nagorny-Karabakh in Azerbaijan, Russian minority "oppression" in Ukraine and the Baltic states, fake state with Russian military in Trans-Dnistria in Moldova,...- these are just a few.

Indeed, Poland and Ukraine should see this issue clear as day.


Russian Federation has 1/9th of the world's dry land - it still argues with Ukraine about border demarcation in Kerch strait between the Azov and the Black seas refusing to accept the borders which were within the Soviet Union and which it promised to honor in multiple post-Soviet agreements!!!! And you tell me that they will be satisfied with some station post on the Baltic??? Listen, Seanus, you are not Polish and you don't give a damn about Poland and its safety. Me, no matter what happens in the future, I suggest Poland to keep its defense up and as updated as possible - it will need it 100% for sure.


With the same friendly respect as you give Borrka I am telling you, Seanus, that you know sh*t about the Eastern Europe and its circumstances and mentalities. No offense.

Not at all, Seanus.
It's easy to find the same attitude towards Russia among the Balts which are even not Slavic.
And I even don't mention the "Asiatic" members of the Russian Federation.

Once, on my business trip to Lithuania I met an older Lithuanian guy who spent 10 years in Siberia, first in gulag then as a free settler.

What he told me was a kind of a local saying or anecdote :

A single Russian will help you and is ready to give you his last shirt.
When we are meeting ten of them ... so let's have a party and drink some vodka.
But in case you see thousand Russkies do not wait ... run like hell away!

Nathan, the motives for those wars were very different. They don't follow the same logic as WWII at all so you really lost on that point. A NWO could be created after WWII but those wars were fought with differing objectives.

Yup, you didn't give me one good reason as I asked for. Times have changed, Nathan, and your blatant dislike of Russia has blighted your sense of rational perspective on the matter. Your history seems to be awful too, no offence. Aren't you aware that Poland joined NATO 11 years ago? Oh, let me guess, you are still stuck in the communistic rut that typifies Eastern Europe.

No, Russia focussed its efforts on Chechnya and not on Poland. Or are you wearing your opaque glasses again?

I am more connected with Poland than you are, Nathan. Oh, not concerned with Polish safety? So I want my friends and other innocent people here to die? How insincere!!! I bet my Polish is much better than yours. 100% bollocks, Nathan! Go to the doctor for paranoia!

LOL, I've only lived here for 6 years and see it VERY clearly. Stop shrouding yourself in some kind of mystique as it doesn't wash. You are about as enigmatic to me as a dead fly.

Borrka, so travel with an entourage of Mujihadeen then? ;) ;) Many Celts can understand no problem, trust me!

How? There is one basic line in all wars - control. In all the mentioned wars it was a matter of who controls what part of the world and set his rules. Or you think that either side of the conflict thought about the local population's benefit? They split the territory up, sell the weapons, run the country by instigated brothers on their ancestral land and then will send humanitarian aid and their construction companies to "help rebuild" the destroyed lands in meantime keeping their armies on these lands to force the election in the necessary for the occupiers' direction. Any single war I mentioned had this background. Any upcoming war will have the same principles: as it was 3,000, 1,000, 500, 100, 20, 5 years ago.


And??? Russia might become a member of it too pretty soon. Guess what then? Who will arm the expanded NATO? Germany, France, England, US or Russia? The round table will decide the zones of trade in weapons and Poland will be getting Russian systems of defence whether it wants or not - a lot of economic gears there to make the persuasion easier. And then? It will all roll out by the old scenario.


Yeh..;) It is so focused...
Look at the North Stream - Poland was avoided as a territory through which the gas line is passing even at the additional cost to the pipe-line. Why? Poland is a member of NATO and EU. And, did it help? Believe me, there is an agenda in regards to the Eastern Europe and it will be split and trampled upon and under control of the West and the East - it is a matter of time.


I deeply doubt it, but I am not interested in convincing you in the opposite.


Who says to die? You just unaware of the politics of the region and listen more to the mother-in-law than to check 20-21th century on your own. People like you make countries defeated before anything even starts. Sleep well, Seanus.


Thanks for advice. My doctor treats lobotomized individuals too - if you are interested, I might get you the number.


Yeh ;) You see it VERY clearly.

Yes but the current leadership of Russia is not hellbent on pursuing Stalinist ideals. Control? Fair enough but within certain confines. Access to the Caspian Sea is critical for them but what does Poland have now that they could possibly want? What could they control?

You really think so, huh? Well, that depends on who the Polish PM is come that time. I can tell you for sure that if JK gets into power, your little hypothetical scenario will be thrown out the window.

What I will concede is that it may be used as a strategic base at some point in the future. It has already housed anti-terrorist operations (largely hidden from the general public) but you seem to envisage a carving up scenario. Given the current political climate, it just ain't gonna happen, Nathan.

You don't need to 'convince' me, Nathan. Just because you speak Ukrainian or maybe even Russian doesn't mean that you speak Polish. Keep trying to deceive yourself, though.

My mother-in-law knows and has experienced MUCH more of Polish life than you ever will. Poland can defend itself if it so wishes. I advocate defensive plans, yes. However, I follow rational lines and am not blinded by paranoia.

I've been down that route already :) :)

Thanks! Glad that you agree :)

People like you make countries both attack and being attacked... :) Though do not I mean to worry you. Your posts will always reach their audience.

Your notion on the whole leeds me to a thought of that it surely better for Ukraine to have a semi-literal "ham" at the helm, than an educated (unless it's related to history and politology) psycho like yourself, providing I've always wished the best to Ukraine as a state. Being a spiteful mockery of a young Stepa, you, certainly without meaning it, make Russia and Poland look more similar than either of those compared to the seal between. I'm sorry yet again to dissappoint you but a scarce Russian or Ukrainian of a sufficient sanity would be any touched by a pathetic beatching about Russia and her evilness on your part, since you're yourself the evil I hadn't had a chance to contemplate in either of 16 countries I've hitherto visited (though I haven't been to Canada and that may be the case).

I can fully understand the natural fears of Poles and Ukrainians but their self-proclaimed expertise is laughable. They turn sth very simple into a non-stop thesis. It must grow thin for a Russian such as yourself to have to listen to it. They still haven't come out of WWII.

Many people have this way of thinking in Poland, but its not entirely a bad thing. A point needing proven ect. Though it does pee me off a little when it is used as an excuse not to better themselves in this day and age.

No you can not.


Which is why Poles were right as far as russian policies were concerned, every single time throught history?

Sorry Sean but you know zip, the only way you can maintain any sort of a discussion is by escaping into your silly conspiracy theories or retreat into liberal bullcrap.

Personal trip now Seanus but its needed, you're one of the truly likeable decent people around here, enough that i would never go as far as to insult you despite all the utterly stupid things you write however.

You are not polish, you do not understand the polish reality and you do not understand or feel for Poles, that much is clear, yeah you might have a polish wife and polish kids and live here for X years but planet Poland is still a completely undiscovered country for you, totally.

So is Russia for you then, which perfectly fits his sentiment of that neither Poles nor Ukrainians can have a sole right to label any other nation.

Or, if it works better for you, he has as equal rights as yourself to do so.