When you get down to it JK tends to follow the same strategy except that his nonsense sounds vaguely like it means something that only the highly erudite can truly follow so people are intimidated to ask what it's supposed to mean.
Haha, that's exactly my impression of that fragment about the civic society ;)
Ironside, and what's your take on what Kaczyński said?
All that a person needs to know now is that JK wants rule of party and not rule of law
and he absolutely hates about half the population of the country.
I hope that's not true, but who knows... I've been naive enough before already... :/
You are mocking people who claim that it matters who owns what, asking questions, learning about facts or talk turkey?
I'm criticising people who are convinced that if someone is criticising their beloved leader or party they can be doing that only because they are payed to do that by "wraże siły" (foreign enemies). This is the narrow-minded conviction of pro-Putin Russian nationalists and looks like it is also your and Polonius3' conviction. They simply can't comprehend that criticism of Putin and Russia can be valid. Everyone who criticises Putin or Russia is a traitor or an enemy, no matter whether it's ordinary citizens, opposition, the media, Poland or the West. Such attitude makes any discussion impossible because it makes the other side not an equal partner for such discussion.
First, I'd like you to prove that 80% of Polish press is owned by Alex Springer.
Secondly, I'd like you to tell me who was "bankrolling" TVN.
Thirdly, I'd like to say that even Agnieszka Holland criticised TVN saying they weren't entirely objective (and she said that during an interview on that station, you should see the anchor's face lol - oh, but you probably don't watch TVN or TVN24, do you? ;)). My parents at some point switched from TVN's "Fakty" to TVP1's "Wiadomości". I myself noticed somewhere around the second term of PO in power that "Wiadomości" on TVP1 has become surprisingly objective and neutral (something unheard of before, since every new government was taking over TVP pretty shamelessly, as far as I remember). That's why I was absolutely baffled by the savage agression of the elderly people when they attacked that poor TVP journalist: youtube.com/watch?v=Spa5CBzB_4I
Such "civilised" people will be setting the tone in my country now?
The fact that some TV station or a newspaper may be to some extent not objective or biased doesn't have to stem from any foreign "bankrolling" but simply from the political views of the station or newspaper - this is how it is in many democracies. Let's take CNN and Fox News, for example. Am I correct?
Well, they are protesting against PiS winning democratic election hence immediately after that fact KODs sprigged out.
No, they're protesting against PiS breaking the law and constitution. The reason why KOD came into being was the Constitutional Tribunal crisis. The parliament voted for the new legislation about the CT on the 19th of November 2015. The same day a group called KOD was set up on Facebook. The first public meeting of supporters of KOD took place on 26 of November in some theater (just 200 people). On 26 of November KOD wrote an open letter to the president of Poland urging him to take the oath from the judges elected to the Constitutional Tribunal. The first manifestation in defence of the CT organised by KOD took place on the 3rd of December.
On the 19th of December the demonstrations took place in 23 cities in Poland and in front of Polish embassies and consulates abroad.
Banners with slogans change in time from protesting against government not displaying the EU flags on one occasion to all issues that pertains to Tribunal
And what's wrong with that?
in meantime all acts and bills that government introduced to defence of Lech Walesa even though government has nothing to do with the new documents that came to light.
I don't know whether it's because I'm tired and sleepy today or because you're not making sense but I don't understand this sentence. Could you elaborate? What does it have to do with KOD demonstrations?
To sum it all any and each pretext is good to attack the government for the one reason only - them being PiS.
No, Ironside. Both PiS and PO and their supporters were attacking each other for everything and nothing, but this is different this time. No government before went as far as PiS is going.
Remember that I have your posts above and I can expose any lies in no time at all.
What? lol What on Earth are you talking about? I don't like PiS, I'd rather they didn't win, obviously, but I never contested the fact that they've won a fair democratic election (unlike PiS that claimed that previous elections when they lost were rigged! lol). That's not the problem, the problem is what they started doing after they won with the CT and not only CT. I didn't have a good opinion about PiS but, honestly, it didn't cross my mind that they were going to do the stuff they're doing now. Especially that during the campaign they were posing as modern and more friendly and professional and talking about "good change" and all that bullsh1t with smiling president showing of his pretty daughter. They've only shown their true faces after the election during nighttime parliamentary sessions...
See that probably because I have never pictured you as being stupid.
As I wrote before - arguments, Ironside, arguments and not insults :)
leftie - often,
Me - a leftie? That's a good one :D You're not even able to tell my political orientation lol Have you ever met a leftie who's a religious Catholic? I must say I haven't. Although I think there should be at least a bit of a socialist in every Christian :)
I'm a centrist - something between a liberal and a conservatist with a drop of socialist, I suppose. That's why I can be less "stupid" than people like you or jon357 who are fanatics of one political side. I can see both sides of the barricade so I would say I see more than the both of you can see individually.
stupid - nah such a thought has never crossed my mind until now.
I know, I know, I'm all wonderful and brilliant when I'm criticising others and my comments are hitting nails on the heads one after another but when I start criticising you or what you like (no matter whether it's you or jon357 or anyone else who can't seem to discuss like an adult) I'm suddenly "stupid", "hormonal" and my "overlong" comments are "mindless drivel" :)))
Now, could we all focus on the subject matter instead of my intelligence or lack of it, my hormones, the length of my posts (if you don't like reading, go and watch a film, nobody forces you to read it ^_^'), etc. :*
Seriously though don't you kids learn nothing nowadays?
Ironside, be serious, please. I was talking about the content and I think you're intelligent enough to know that.
Your comment is an example why discussing on this forum can be such a waste of time. Instead of using some serious arguments you're wasting my time by writing stuff like this and I have to respond to such childish play.
Btw, we "kids" were learning Russian at school so I was not only able to realise that those Russians were using a different language but I was also able to read it and discuss with them in their own language (poorly, but still... ;)).
How about contexts, additional circumstances and reality on the ground.
What about them? :) Tell me about them. You surely must know much about it? :)
The context was, for example: supporters of the government calling the opposition/media/protesters traitors payed by foreign forces
because they were criticising the government.
Any normal person in a normal democracy recognises the right of the opposition/media/protesters to criticise the government without them being called traitors payed by foreign forces.
Are you sure that logic and logo are not the same in your mind?
I'm comparing attitudes, mentality, Ironside. Those "words" express those attitudes, mentality.
For example, Putin's actions during the Ukraine crisis were comapred to the actions of Hitler, the state of mind of the Russian society was compared to the state of mind of German society in the 30's. Does that mean Putin is Hitler and Russians are Nazis? Of course not, but there are disturbing similarities, patterns, attitudes, etc. At some point after the annexation of Crimea even some Russian state backed newspaper published an article defending the actions of Hitler concerning Gdańsk bascially justifying the attack on Poland. Who could imagine such a thing considering how much Russians hate the Nazis? But at some point such schizophrenia is possible.
Just like with PiS supporters or simply right-wingers hating on Putin and Russia but acting like Putin supporters themselves.
The same with Polish government...
Of course, Putin and Russians were greatly offended when they were compared to 1930's Germany :)
PiS and some or many Poles, I don't know (including some liberal journalists on TVN as far as I've noticed lol) were also offended when PiS was accused of "putinisation" of Poland :)
Do I really need to humiliate you further by proving to you that what you say here is just a pure nonsense? Do you want me to?
You can try, but use real arguments for that and some real info and not insults, please :)
Aren't you striving to be modest you genius you?
That's not what I wrote you demagogue you :) I've compared the mentality and attitudes displayed by you and Polonius3 in your comments to the mentality and attitudes of pro-Putin Russian nationalists.
I understand that you feel butt hurt by being compared to pro-Putin Russian
nationalists :) But I have a felling that your reaction would be different if I compared your comments to that of pro-Orban Hunagrian
nationalists :) Am I right?
What was your population sample and what methods did you employ while conducting your research?
I'm not some polling or research institution, Ironside :) I'm an ordinary forum user who has a right to make observations and comments and can draw conclusions based on those observations. You don't have to agree with them, I know you most probably won't :)
Do you think that judge should be above the law?
No, a judge shouldn't be above the law just like the president and the government shouldn't be above the law. The CT didn't brake the law. The president did by not taking an oath from the elected judges. He broke the constitution and he will face the State Tribunal after PiS will lose power.
You know, what baffles me and people I know is that PiS is behaving like there's going to be nothing after them, like there're going to be in power forever o_O
Don't they understand that the changes they make can be used against them by the party that will come to power after them? That the power they give to the state may be later on used by a party far dangerous then them? They seem to be extremely short-sighted.
Don't be dumber than you have to be. If you don't see difference I won't help you.
Let's take a different example then if you don't get what I'm trying to say. The EU imposed sanctions on Russia (although Russia isn't even a member of the EU) for breaking the international law and the treaties Russia signed (annexation of Crimea). The EU can impose some sort of sanctions for the breaking of the Polish law and acting against the Polish constitution by the Polish government since such actions are apparently breaking the EU law and the treaties Poland signed.
Opposition has a certain rights and duties if they fail to fulfil those they are not longer acting as an opposition by as so called opposition for the lack of a better expression.
So, by your logic the government has also certain rights and duties and if they fail to fulfil those (like acting according to the law and the Constituton
of the country) they are no longer acting as a government but as "so called government", for the lack of a better expression? :)
You see, I'm not that stupid, am I? :D That's a double-edged sword ;)
Sure, a big benevolent state that is like a big brother or a sister to you and were only saints and angels are working and worrying night and day in what way to help poor Poland.
Ironside, you don't know my opinion on the EU so don't pretend that you do. There's one thing that the West does good for sure though and knows lots about and that's democracy. They're far more experinced than we are in that department.
Sure plenty of laws that says it is not their business.
Oh, I don't know about that. I've heard other opinions.
And anyway, are you saying that noone can criticise any country for anything because it's not their business? Russia can't be criticized for being undemocratic, Saudi Arabia for not letting women drive cars or North Korea for keeping political prisoners in concentration camps? China for harvesting organs from Falun Gong followers kept in prisons (since they have healthy bodies everyone wants their organs, sic!)? Why can't Iran have a nuke? It's their business what they're doing in their own country, right?
You will tell me now - but they don't have democratically elected governments.
OK, but PiS wasn't elected for what it's doing now either. Every government in Poland is supposed to act according to the Constitution of Poland even if they don't like it. PiS could change the Constitution if they got enough votes but they didn't and hence they don't have the mandate to do anything against the Constitution.
You have no clue do you?
Well, you would have to prove that. Feel free to do that, I learn all my life :)