Poland to officially demand $1.32 trillion WW2 reparations from Germany

I like as our great friend Germny are peeling its friendly mask layer after layers to show us their real and ugly but somewhat familar face.

Sad that there are some stuck up fools in Poland sill peddling that lie. They look like a cartoon chracter walking on an empty air before they realize they have no ground under their feet.

Well Germany HI you old bastard, you have been playing a good game till now.

How about this as a revelation...Germany is doing what's best for Germany. No, Poland is not the center of the universe.
If you feel that the Germans who are alive today are responsible financially, why not make them responsible criminally? Hey, Hans, your grandpa killed my grandpa. That will be 25 to life.

@Cojestdocholery,
We learned from the Nueremberg Trials that culpability is not always
an easy matter!

No German at the time wanted to admit their guilt.
It was only after the Auschwitz Trials in '67 or thereabouts and of course the publication of Mitscherlich's "The Inability To Mourn" in '69, that ordinary Germans began to have substantive discussions with their parents about their role in the recent past.

In the documentary "Night and Fog" by Alain Resnais, the film ends with the eternal question: If the kapos, the commandants, the German people were not responsible...WHO then was responsible?

A more uncomfortable question remains whether Poland itself bore even the slightest complicity in the murder of Jews during the Holocaust.

Certainly neither of us can honestly answer this question.

Try not to involve us, I mean other Poles, into your private nightmares and obsessions. You can suffer from them in the comfort of your own home. Such public imposition of your anti German phobias on other people is unfair.

What are you talking about? the WWII and the Jews again. You are possesed.


How about you mind your own biz?

Exactly, with antiGerman phobia. We pity you but you need to resolve it by your own means coz you are a mature person, aren`t you???

It's all connected, Cojestdocholery.

I don't think it's anti German phobia.
He just wants justice and to be fair, the Germans never really paid for their terrible crimes.

Sue those Germans who did it. How many generations will it take to erase the debt? 10? 20?

You mean aside from losing 1/4 of their territory permanently, having millions of people expelled in marches that killed up to a million, having the rest of the country divided and occupied for the next 45 years and paying bns in restitution and reparation.

Disregarding the fact that the matter has been legally settled, asking generations of people to pay 1.5bn for crimea that have been commited years before they were born is just ludicrous. That much should be clear to anyone.

Oh cry me a river. As always playing the victim here. You Krauts have no shame.
The fact remains that you paid very little in general and next to nothing to Poland.
Crimes or not, I talk only about material losses inflicted outside the combat.

Just pointing out historical facts here. Claiming that Germany never paid for its' crimes is hardly true given all of that happened because of the war.

As for playing the victim. It is silly that people born after WWII claim to be victims deserving of reparations to begin with.

@Tacitus
One thing is to think of current young generation of Germans as responsible for ww2 attrocities (which is wrong)

Another is to ignore the consequences ww2 as a whole brought to eastern europe.

Thinking that generations older then 35+ didn't live the consequences of WW2 and it's aftermath is ignoring the situation that Poland's economical situation of 1990+ was postponed due to tyranically imposed communist authorities by the Soviet Union.

One only has to know about the economical situation of eastern Germany to grasp it even a little.

There is a grudge about it, legally settled or not. How Germany will counter that grudge is up to them, financially or through different means? I don't know

We will see

You are being silly. If your greatfather stole 10 gold bars from my greatfather it means your parents were better off than they would have had been otherwise and it all influced your life too. So stop talking nonsense as if there were no connection and impact.

Even colonies were two way street and here were just a pure robbery and exploitation. Funny your haven't been told that before. I guess all those Nazis had a lot of say in how Germans were educted after the war.

I'am talking about material issues to expect to pay for crimes is too late. All you can do is pay for inflicted material loses.

Everything that came before us may or may not have influenced us before. You don't see Germas asking for reparations from Napoleonic occupation or the French for Caesar's conquest of Gaul.


I think I know enough, but past crimes by previous generations do not justify new payments to people who were not directly affected.

Everything is relative in the end. Poles may have been affected by WWII more than others, but nevertheless lived better than other people who suffered historical injustices (like many people in Africa).


Since the grudge is entirely fed and held up by Polish politicians, it is up to them to solve it (by accepting that the matter is settled and telling as much to their voters). Germany only hast to wait. Each passing year makes more and more a mockery of auch demands.

* nods emphatically

Ludicrous isn't strong enough a word.

...and their Polish collaborators.
That's not Germany's problem and goes under "tough sh*it". Sue Russia and Putin.


...by the people who had no control over the events.
I can argue just as easily that thanks to Hitler and the Nazis the US is now in control of Europe and Poland is safer because of this. Conclusion: Hitler was good for Poland. Which is just as ridiculous as that Tacitus owes Kashub anything because Adolph was a mean guy.

Apparently you fail to grasp the idea of legal continuity. Tacitus may not owe Kashub anything, but at the same time Germany can owe something to Poland. Modern Germany is the legal heir of the Third Reich and Germans build their image of a "moral superpower" on the fact that they admitted the crimes of Third Reich and accepted their consequences.

As far as the issue in question is concerned, Poland can take two approaches: moral approach or pragmatic approach. Let's take a look at both:

a) moral approach

German reaction to Polish demands is somewhat disgusting (at least for people with weak stomachs) - on the one hand we have undoubted fault: unjustified aggression, millions of slaughtered civilians, country in ruins, works of art stolen etc. etc. and on the other hand legal tricks and small print from the times when Poland was a Soviet puppet-state (and even then, questionable legal claims). Basically, what Germany is saying now is: "Yes, we take the responsibility for III Reich's crimes", so Poland says "Well, then pay up", to which Germany replies: "No, no - we take the responsibility, BUT we won't pay - we don't have to pay because of X*". Absolutely indefensible approach and morally vomit-inducing. In this scenario, Poland cools down the relations with Germany, maybe even to the point of Polexit, seeing that Germans still think it suitable to block Poland's European funds and try to meddle in affairs not covered by European treaties (e.g. much needed judicial reform) and feel it also suitable to lecture Poland on democracy and European values (!). An unlikely scenario? Perhaps.

b) pragmatic approach

Germans are still Germans. People don't change that much in 75 years and certainly not nations or countries. They are still the 1939 Germans** but, luckily, they are much more pragmatic now, so maybe we should adapt their approach too. Sure it's unfair, sure it's disgusting, but for an average Jan Kowalski Poland in the EU, strong economic ties with Western Europe and wide cooperation with Germany is much more important than moral high ground and satisfied righteous indignation. So, if Germany gives up the meddling in Poland's internal affairs, we should adapt the pragmatic approach and keep the widely understood cooperation with Germany as an important part of the EU, and put the issue of reparations ad calendas Graecas. An unlikely scenario? Perhaps.

*X = legal tricks and small print;

I would be inclined to adapt approach B. Having said that, German reaction surprises me. I would expect at least some sort of negotiations; certainly not the quick and cold "nein" that we heard. Surprising (or maybe not - see **). Oh, well.

This should probably read "Germany can owe Poland something" (too late to edit). The English language... *rolls eyes*

You forgot to include the legal approach - the only one that counts. Feelings are for chicks and pussified "men".
Legally, the case is settled and no amount of verbal gymnastics will change that. In this respect Germany's case is solid.

Did Poland try to collect from Sweden or is that case too old now? If so, when did it become too old? Or: when will the German case become too old for the Hight Moral Ground occupiers?

That answer is a number, not another sob story.

Germany's case might (just might) be solid from the legal point of view but that's not the most interesting thing here.

The most interesting thing is the question of reconciling being a "moral superpower" - having the right to lecture others on pretty much everything - and "taking full responsibility" for III Reich's crimes while, at the same time, flatly refusing to pay for them. :)

Interesting from moral and pragmatic points of view, and yes - perhaps also from the legal one. Can you, legally, take full responsibility for something but refuse to pay for damages? As in - "yes, I take full responsibility for burning my neighbours house, raping his wife and killing his grandma BUT I am certainly not going to pay for it".


Of course. Poland have been trying for over 300 years and will continue to do so. The problem is - thieves, being thieves, are rather unwilling to return stolen goods.

ciekawostkihistoryczne.pl/2018/09/25/bezcenne-polskie-skarby-ktorych-nie-zobaczysz-nad-wisla-mozna-je-podziwiac-tylko-w/

@GefreiterKania
I am descended from west Slavic tribes that survived Germanisation thanks to the banners of the piasts and their expansion and, later on the elites who were able to hold on until the time of the partitions. If I owe anything it is to every single Pole.

If Germans truly want reconciliation they should make steps for it. So far there have been children steps, which PiS wrongly assumed as a major trend or thought could gain something out of instead of building on it.

They started playing poker instead of building bridges and called the Germans on their sincerity. Clearly the Germans were merely testing the waters wether or not Poles can be lumped together with Greeks and others "They just want our money".

Which again can lead to a more trade focused relationship and monetary exchanges.

Germans will remain Germans, and friendship with any German should be reserved at the individual level according to me. Until further time in the future, it's strictly business with them and their influence is aimed at increasing and maintaining that influence, even at the cost of destabilising the situation in Poland if seen as in need of it.

Neither Swedes as a people are interested in reconciliation nor Germans, and if Germans are then they want it as cheap as overly possible with pragmatic approach as a goal for economical goals.

As people they might be (some individuals). As countries, apparently not.

Not true. The matter of reparations was not only settled in the agreement between the GDR and Poland (a perfectly valid legal agreement) but also later in the treaties between the FRG and Poland and the 2+4 treaty. Poland has waved his right to reparations multiple times implicitely and explicitely and thus has forfeited any legal claims.


That is not true either. This is not a matter that is settled in Berlin but Bruessels. If you have trouble accepting that legal fact, then there is really no point in discussing the legal status of the reparation issue.


If the other party confirms multiple times that it has no further claims ( in addition to receiving 1/4 of your house) then of course.


You mean aside from publically apologizing, forgiving the crimes comitted to expelled Germans, signing friendship treaties and supporting Poland on its' into the EU and its' evolution into a stable democracy and keep smiling while Polish politicians hurl the worst kind of insults at you? Germany managed to get friendly relationships with all of its' neighbours. But yeah, it is Germany who does not want reconciliation.

If you ask for 1.5 tn in repartion without legal claim for crimes that have been commited 75+ years ago, you are not after reconciliation.

Isn't that the only possible way?

It's certainly a way, but hardly the "only" possible way!

Yes, they did - they lost their Eastern territories to Poland. Simple.

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  Ziemie_Odzyskane.png
  

Where are the Eastern territories that Poland lost on your map, pawian? They are the same in terms of area as those we got from Germany plus the equivalent of the entire Czech Republic.

The fact is that neither Germany nor Poland had anything to do with the land swap - it was ordered by Stalin and nobody asked either Poles or Germans if they were happy with it.

Up until '45, present-day Polish cities such as "Wroclaw", "Szczecin" or "Gdansk" bore German names!
Surely no living German in his or her right mind would dare to petition somehow reclaiming these and aim to rename them in their original nomenclature, would they?

It's too ludicrous even to imagine! Germany lost the war, period.