History lessons no more in Poland (Tusk's change)

As can be seen by the sometimes hysterical posts in this thread, education debates are marred by politics. Yes, the government is wishing to water down history teaching. And there is a case to be made for change, but you won't hear decent arguments being made by either "side" because they will be drowned out by the media. Often Polish education in the past has demanded too much content. Unfortunately, it seems that the future is going to be characterised by the exact opposite.

Even more unfortunately, history is not the biggest loser in the educational shake-up that's been ongoing over the last few years - including pre-Tusk. The biggest losers have been the sciences and maths. If you talk to higher education staff, they will readily bemoan the remedial lessons forced on them by the substandard knowledge base of their students. It's a general dumbing down process afflicting all aspects of Polish education.

Why is this happening? A leading educationalist explained to me that the original decision was taken in the 90s to open up educational qualifications to the huge number of people who were treated as failures under the old system. The end result of this is that a lot of people have qualifications of lower worth and some highly intelligent people have under-appreciated qualifications. And general levels of knowledge and ability have gone down.

It is sad but true. Pity.

History has always been a field for interest for amateurs like us. I remember that I started reading my older sister`s school books when I was in grade 2 and she was in 5.

That doesn't make any sense.


bingo!

Very few things to you actually do. Unless of course they are PIS inspired, than they make perfect sense.
PISA: Programme for International Student Assessment.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programme_for_International_Student_Assessment

Poland has been recently going up in the league. Crucially a study has found that the more time you devote to mathematics and literacy-which among others are the subjects that the league measures, the more likely you are to be competitive. So the more time you spend on religion and history, the less time you devote to those crucial subjects. Which is why the system needs to be reformed, ideally religion should be axed and combined with other subjects like history for instance, you could call it society and environment and teach a combination of religious teaching, life skills, and a bit of history.

What is has to do with anything ? Doesn't it answer the question about programs and subject toughs in schools about the system and the way teachers are schooled and expected to deal with pupils, does it gives the answer to anything apart form some general assessment of few students abilities ?


Do you actually know Polish because your last attempt at translation was poorly done. Why do I ask?
Because you are talking about PiS and you seems to know very little about them.
As to your suggestion that something must be inspired by PiS to gain my acceptance I may only answer that such a thought must be inspired by your natural stupidity and mediocrity of your character.

If you think that I'm insulting you heed the fact of my many post were I have denied any political affiliation to PiS.
I would add that your blind acceptance of the current government every move is rather an obvious indicator that your views are motivated by the artificial knowledge of the Polish politician scene and country.

I can't really make much of this rant, perhaps you would like to rephrase your argument.


It has everything to do with what you mentioned above

wrong, what's happening in Poland is Americanization of everything, the American model has been proven beneficial (to those in power of course)
and it being replicated. That's all.

It means that instead of 6% elite who was allowed to have higher education in communist Poland, 14% have it today and the number is rising.

ech pawian, I have seen the avarage quality of today's graduates - you are fooling yourself mostly - high school deans complain that the level of science among their newcomers have dropped dramatically and they can hardly cope with that because there is a serious gap

That will change in the future i can guarantee it. I am sure that in the next ten years the government will force students to pay for their education, i already had the privilege of paying for my own. What will happen is that they will introduce a system were the money follows the student, which will mean that the best resourced universities will be the ones that give you the most useful education.

What will also happen is that the government will force students to pay by giving them a loan, which they will be expected to pay back interest free, after they find employment and earn a certain level of income. I think it is inevitable, and i must admit probably fair, after all why should somebody who finished a zawodowka pay for somebody's education who is attending a university.

it's not the universities that are the main problem but earlier education and in fact in Poland the system where money follows the student is much in place but it creates a different result that you would want to see - it creates a situation where universities accept all students they can (and even more than they can) and keep even those who are not actually fit for university education


yes I think you are right on this for the most part

It will take a bit of time to work out, and I think you have to have the second component in place of the student paying for his or her education, for the first to work better. I guess initially the universities will pick everyone as you say, but after some 10 years time there should be a definite educational trend, which the universities should be forced to publish (this should be another part of educational reform, forcing universities to publish data on the employment attainment of students who leave university). This will give future students a good idea whether it is worth it, and they will be more careful about how they spend their money.


Actually i would disagree, I think that early education in Poland is a lot better than higher education. Poland actually does quite well in international rankings for primary and secondary education outcomes.

I have no experience or knowledge whatsover of any foreing educational systems - one thing I know is Polish education system hardly teaches children to think for themselves and hardly promotes creativity and creative approach to problems and learning - in my kid years primary schools at least offered children an insight into the world of practical skills (Zajęcia praktyczno-techniczne) and many young people already found their calling then - it is all gone now AFAIK

You have no clue about Poland, so why don't you shut up instead of making assumption based on your uneducated guesses.


In what way ? There is no way you can say whether educational system is working or not, decaying or improving based on your test.
I'm telling you that executional system in Poland is going to the dogs and it is constant process.


As hague1cmaeron ? I don't think so !And what would you do if you are not right ? say sorry ?phew!


Fine but it will not make better an educational system in Poland.


When did you make that assessment ? Last year or ten years ago ?
Anyway what do you make from the last reform ?

Your relentless negativity is really becoming a bit passe. God i hope you are not married, because if you are I really pity your wife.


It's not my test you fool.

I let my wife answer that one:



Because I know what has become from the Polish educational system and I have definitive opinion about it?
Yes, I don't think much about educational system in Poland whereas you just have no clue about it.


Test you presented here you moron !
Do you have any other argument to support your views ? or your admiration for PO, lack of knowledge and this test is all you need to become personal and obnoxious ?

Not my views imbecilic. If you weren't too arrogant to actually follow the debate, you would realize that I referred to international rankings compiled by PISA- which apart from posting rankings analyses each country's performance and makes recommendations for improvements, which oddly enough coincide with my own.

You don't understand , Polish education system is being constantly dumbed down. No tests are gonna change that fact.

Nevertheless Poland still holds its own in international comparisons, and to my knowledge the government aims to make the education system more competitive. Just by way of example, the Polish girls' European maths Olympiad team has had some success:

Polish team won the first European Mathematical Olympiad for Girls . The competition , held in Cambridge in the UK, was attended by 70 participants from 19 countries from Europe and beyond.

Polish women won the team classification scoring a total of 122 points , narrowly beating Romania (121 points) , Ukraine (117 points) and the United States (110 points) . The Polish team the best result was achieved Barbara Mroczek , scoring 36 points and a gold medal for her were taken by Anna Siennicka ( 31 points , silver medal ) , Agata Latacz ( 28 points , silver medal ) and Anna Olech ( 27 points , silver medal ) .

We have a thread on this.

A few days ago i talked to my private students. They complained that history in their secondary school, year 3, age 16, drives them crazy. E.g., they had to learn about the unification of Italy in 19 century. :):):):)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_unification

This is madness. Even I, history lover, would complain. I don`t give a shyt about some fekking prehistoric Italian problems.

Come on!

It seems the reform is well grounded. :):):):)

The 19th Century is not prehistoric. Are you certain that are you are a history lover?

You can always find few geeks doesn't prove anything.
Also dumbing down doesn't bid well for the future.

Yes, it is. Italian unification of 19 century is very closely connected with times when dinosaurs walked the Earth.


Are you challenging me to a historic duel? :):):)

If so, don`t worry, I will wait till you are taken off the hook.

Son, I wish you have proved you are more clever than any one of those girls from that competition. Given that the solutions are already publicly available, I still challenge you to explain those problems in any comprehensible way you can. I bet you have no idea what it was all about. Yet it does not stop you from voicing your nonsensical statements away.

To add to my previous message. Calling those girls the geeks is demeaning and suggesting that "Polish education system is being constantly dumbed down" is baseless.

I am very impressed by the level of problems those girls faced in this olympiad. In my opinion, one or two of the problems could easily qualify as problems for computer science assignments for the undergraduate students of any good American university. They required non-standard, non-trivial approaches.

Polish national team for the European Girl's Mathematical Olympics 2012 : Basia Mroczek (Gold medal, 2nd grade High School), Ania Siennicka (Silver medal, 3rd grade HS), Agata Latacz (Silver, 3rd grade HS) and Ania Olech (Silver, 2nd grade HS), the overall winners of that competition, did not just magically appeared out of the thin air. These girls are former winners of Olimpiada Matematyczna Gimnazjalistów (OMG) - Polish national Mathematical Olympiad for Gymnasium (junior high school) students. Agata is from Witkowski High School in Kraków, and the remaining three girls are from Staszic High School in Warsaw.

The first OMG was organized in 2005/2006. OMG is addressed to the most talented junior high school students, especially interested in mathematics and its purpose is to awaken a taste for mathematics among junior high school students, search for students interested in mathematics, development of independent learning skills and stimulation of cognitive activity of gifted adolescents.

In 2010 the OMG, as one of the four pilot subject olympiads, has been included into the project of Ministry of Education: "Develop and implement a comprehensive system for working with gifted students."

This project is funded by the European Union through the European Social Fund under the Human Capital Operational Programme, Priority III, Action 3.3: Improvement of the quality of education, Measure 3.3.3: Upgrade of the content and methods of education. Its main goal is to "develop innovative solutions of a systemic nature, to be used in the future organization of olympiads throughout the entire country."

You are entitled to your view which stem from the fact that you have no clue about Poland and especially about Polish education system.


I wish those girls all the best. Still Polish educational system is being constantly dumbed down.
You ignorance is so deep that you are unable to differentiate between a group of gifted kids being coached all the way and average level of education in the country.

Indeed, a group only. How tiny this group might be - according to you? I might be ignorant, but I can read available data and I analyze it. You, on the other hand, take the stuff out of thin air and declare it as your proof, ignoring the suggestion coming from the others, like the OMG link I posted before. I will help you again - check this link for the data, before you come with another belief of yours, omg.edu.pl/omg6.php

These are the data from the previous, VI Mathematical Olympiad for Junior High School Students (VI OMG) - Finals: March 20, 2011 .
One hundred twenty five kids successfully went through all three levels of the competitions, and have been declared the laureates of the VI OMG: 5 - the 1st rank winners, 16 - the 2nd, 48 - the 3rd and 57 - the 4th.

But the more important fact is how many of them participated:
187 - entered the 3rd level, with 28% success rate, 72% failure rate;
672 - were accepted to the 2nd level;
and I can only guess (no data here), assuming 50% failure rate, that about 1300 kids entered the first level competition.

Not a bad number, considering the fact that participants came from the places like Knurów and Wasilków, and not only from Warszawa. Another nice number is this: 22% kids entering the last stage were the girls.

That's the fact number 1.
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There are also other subject olympiads in high schools - altogether four of them, such as the Physics Olympiad. And they all are designed for the goods of all kids. We could go with similar exercises for other subjects olympiads as for the Math Olympiad and I am sure the conclusions would be similar.

That's the fact #2.
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In addition to OMG, there is also Mathematical Olympiad for Senior High Schools in Poland (OM). It has a long tradition of 62 consecutive years, beginning with the year 1949/1950. Here is the page with some statistics which you might wish to examine.

The interest in this olympiad remains more or less the same over the years: 1209 candidates at the 1st OM to 1087 in 59th one, with the peak of 3796 at 28th OM (in the year 1976/1977). A passability ratio from the stage 1 to the stage 3, remains more or less at the level of several percent with maximum 12% in 1983, 1985. The last few years (2002-2008, where the table ends) shows positive tendency: 10.7%, 7.9%, 9.6%,10%, 7.5%, 9.8%, 11.6% - way above average. The number of participants getting to the third level show record numbers between the years 2001-2008: 121, 132, 126, 114, 124, 125, 123, 126 - way above average 70 or so. I do not see any dumbing down tendency. Au contraire! That's the fact #3.

=======

Poland also participates in international Mathematical Olympiad, beginning with the year 1959. Here are the statistics, imo-official.org/results.aspx. I extracted from there the data pertaining to Poland. Format: (year position):

(59 5)
(60 -) (61 2) (62 4) (63 8) (64 4) (65 4) (66 4) (67 11) (68 5) (69 10)
(70 11) (71 4) (72 6) (73 4) (74 14) (75 14) (76 9) (77 11) (78 12) (79 10)
(80 -) (81 6) (82 13) (83 15) (84 11) (85 14) (86 17) (87 31) (88 33) (89 12)
(90 21) (91 15) (92 24)(93 28) (94 13) (95 16) (96 13) (97 20) (98 21) (99 19)
(00 32) (01 19) (02 21) (03 22) (04 16) (05 27) (06 11) (07 18) (08 13) (09 25)
(10 24) (11 15)
Aside from the initial glory days, when only few countries participated, Poland's position went way down to the 33rd rank in 1988, and from then it oscillates between 11 and 32. I do not see any dumbing down effect here.

That's the fact #4.
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And here I enter my own belief system, which is no worse than yours - just a belief. I have spent enough years in Poland to observe at least four educational "revolutions" - each leading to a temporary disaster, which usually lasted two years or so. I remember the math textbook for the grade 11, weighing several pounds, and having 600 pages or so. I remember the math teachers complaining that it was physically impossible to go through all those 600 pages - even with the speed of light.

I remember never ending critiques of the Polish educational systems by my own family members - my grandmother, mother, sister, and few aunts.

I remember the times when kids were taught elements of topology and sets at the 1st grade - you know: set operations - unions, intersections, etc.; the times when the provincial math teachers had no clue what that all meant and they forced on the little kids the textbook definitions, without understanding. My friend, a good mathematician at Polish Academy of Science, almost beat up the math teacher for teaching his little son such strange heresies. Well, the educational authorities never thought of the need for re-training the math teachers, before getting on with overly ambitious programs.

I remember the times, sitting at the university entrance examination committee, when a girl did the following transformation: sin(alpha) = 0.4; hence alpha = 0.4 / sin (or was it 0.4 * sin?). This is not a joke; this was a result of one of those "math revolutions".

So when I hear your complaints about Polish schools getting dumber and dumber I just laugh, because there is not an ounce of truth in such statements, just your beliefs. I can see and compare things before and after. Yes, I hate seeing all those terrible orthographic errors displayed in comments all over Polish internet. But does it mean that the situation is much worse it was 30 years ago? I do not know, there was no internet then.

See mister know it all. I could write down why I know what I know and all. It is not based on my discussion with family. Consequently I will not post anything overtly personal on the internet.

You consequently refuse to understand that you are talking about something else and I'm talking about something else.
Those maths Olympiads in no way reflect state of the Polish education.
Anyway judging from the way you writing here, you are in your late 50s, leaving in Canada, I'm not going to change your perspective and open your eyes on the sad truth.

I will not even try. What for ?
I let you feel good about that maths thingy. You don't need all that hassle do you?

But you did not. Is it some kind of a secret source? You must be kidding. There are hundreds reports readily available that you could actually use in your arguments. But you did not. You prefer "Trust me I know better" approach.


Not really; there is a direct relationship between the two. Any schooI capable to dealing with good students is obviously blessed with good teachers, who might be also able to deal with poorer students, thus raising the overall level in a class.

I am going to ignore your personal - off topic - statements.

It looks like you are a lost cause and you will not be interested in my conclusive selection that follows, coming from a report on educational system in Poland, and specifically on mathematics. But others might like it:

A report on state of education - 2010

eduentuzjasci.pl/pl/raport-o-stanie-edukacji-2010.html?showall=&start=1

Chapter IX deals with state of mathematics.

Mathematics under the magnifying class

eduentuzjasci.pl/images/stories/badania/rose/r09.pdf
...
9.4. Mathematical skills of the student graduates during matura exam in 2010 - checked at the various educational thresholds
9.4.4 Conclusions (page 317)

These analyzes allow to put forward the following hypotheses:
1. Both the senior high school students, as well as the secondary technical school students, have mastered well the skills learned in the junior high school.

The influence of knowledge gained in the junior high school on the outcome of the matura exam is much higher for the senior technical schools students than for the high schools students.

2. Students achieve very good results in typical problems where standard procedures can be applied.

3. Students who start their education in the secondary technical schools have great intellectual potential, which is, however, not recognized and properly utilized. These students generally do not develop optimally their mathematical skills and abilities.

4. A group of students taking the matura exam at the advanced level, with the previous external tests taken at the grade six and at the end of the junior high schools, achieves significantly better results in math than any other school graduates.

...
9.6. Mathematical and didactic competence of students - future teachers of early childhood education and of mathematics
Table 9.13. The average scores of students in mathematics and didactics, including the levels at which they can teach
[500 points is set at the international median]

A. Prospective teachers of early education (in Poland: students of Pedagogics)
(mathematics: (535 Russia) (512 Switzerland) (501 Germany) (456 Poland) (345 Georgia))
(didactics: (519 Switherland) (512 Russia) (491 Germany) (452 Poland) (345 Georgia))

B. Prospective primary school teachers specializing in mathematics (in Poland: students of mathematics who wrote the basic test)
(mathematics: (614 Poland) (600 Singapore) (555 Germany) (528 Thailand) (520 USA)(488 Malesia))
(didactics: (604 Singapore) (575 Poland) (552 Germany) (544 USA) (506 Thailand) (503 Malesia))

C. Prospective junior secondary school teachers who can teach at most the X grade (in Poland: mostly junior high school, students of mathematics degree, who wrote the extended test)

(mathematics: (667 Taiwan) (544 Singapore) (531 Switzerland) (529 Poland) (468 USA) (461 Norway) (442 Philippines) (436 Botswana) (354 Chile))
(didactics: (649 Taiwan) (549 Switzerland) (539 Singapore) (520 Poland) (480 Norway) (471 USA) (450 Philippines) (436 Botswana) (394 Chile))

D. Prospective senior secondary school teachers who can teach more than X grade (in Poland: in senior secondary schools, students of mathematics with master degree, who wrote the extended test)

(mathematics: (595 Russia) (587 Singapore) (553 USA) (549 Poland) (503 Norway) (493 Malesia) (479 Thailand) (472 Oman) (449 Botswana) (424 Georgia))
(didactics: (566 Russia) (562 Singapore) (542 USA) (528 Poland) (495 Norway) (476 Thailand) (474 Oman) (472 Malesia) (443 Georgia) (409 Botswana))

The only bad news here is a level of preparation of future teachers for grades 1-3, the students of Pedagogics.

9.7. Summary
The compulsory matura exams in mathematics was restored in 2010 in the hopes of raising the level of mathematical education, and to better prepare the high school graduates to study in the fields of science and engineering, and therefore increase the number of applicants for these courses.To see if these hopes come true, the research will be needed to describe changes in these areas, which will occur after 2010. While one can quite easily see whether the number of applicants for college courses in science and engineering actually increases, it is harder to evaluate correlation between compulsory matura math exams and the teaching level of math; the simple analysis of the matura outcome may not be enough.

So far, the organization of mathematics teaching in the senior technical schools is such that students poorly develop their mathematical talents. They achieve worse results than the high school students and thus are less likely to be accepted to good universities. This may change after the reform program is introduced to the senior secondary schools.

Currently the primary school teachers of grades I-III are poorly prepared to teach mathematics. They graduated in the field of pedagogics, which often does not put enough emphasis on math skills and teaching of mathematics. Some teachers of early education, who have got into the profession over the past twenty years, did not choose the math test at their matura exam. The upshot is that the math in grades I-III primary school is too often poorly taught, and students imitate procedures administered by the teacher, without understanding. Discouragement of mathematics at this stage is difficult to remedy in future years.

Therefore, we believe that in order to raise the level of teaching the mathematics the most urgent task is to make the necessary changes to teaching of mathematics in grades I-III. Such changes should include not only the program changes - currently being introduced - but first of all changes in education of future early education teachers and retraining the teachers already working at this level.

A very interesting OECD clip about the changes that have taken place in the Polish education system over the last 20 years.
pearsonfoundation.org/oecd/poland.html

Excellent.
If students want to learn about history they can read about it. Instead of being spoon fed.
There is far too much job creation, with far too many teachers (on illegal low salaries) and not enough people "doing".
George Bernard Shaw must be laughing his balls off.

With regard to the previous link kindly provided: Hunger-strikers-protest-agains t-education-reforms

Is Jaroslaw the gay laddie actually mentally ill?

Barking :)). FFS