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What must be done to improve politics in Poland?


OP Ironside 48 | 9,824
5 Jun 2011 #61
Anyway, if the mainstream media is so absolutely against PiS - why don't they concentrate on winning their support rather than ranting about bizzare conspiracy theories?

How is your polish delph?;seriously, I would like to know before entering into conversation with you.

So? No answer? Is that bad?
WielkiPolak 58 | 1,034
5 Jun 2011 #62
Of course there was corruption within Samobrona.

Oh puuuleeeaaaaese. They had to go with them in order to be in government. Yes I admit they did not have enough votes to go it alone so they had to choose and PO said no so they had to go with them. Were they meant to go with those communists? Anyway the fact that they did discredit them is an example of how they did not pretend nothing went on just to stay in power but risked their own position in leadership by discrediting Samoobrona.

As for PO being corrupt - sorry, but if you knew a thing about Polish affairs, you'd know how PiS used the security organs to spy on their political enemies. That alone is enough to keep them out of power for a long, long time.

How does this change the fact that a lot of corruption went on [probably still does]? This is what PO and the anti PiS media do they manage to turn the situation around and make those who found out about the corruption seem to be in the wrong for the way they found out. Absolute crap.

What better deal did Poland get? As I recall - President Kaczynski signed Lisbon.

He did not want to sign it and initially did not but there was so much pressure on him not only from Europe by the opposition that he eventually signed it. If he got what he wanted then there would be alterations made in it to suit Poland more before he signed it.

Poland's in NATO - what does she have to fear from Russia?

Oh yeah absolutely nothing to fear from Russia now that Poland is in NATO. They have out back at all times now. If you think that you are just plain ignorant.

Actually I do pay attention I watch it almost every day and see what is going on. Of course there is opposition and there are pro PiS newspapers such as 'Gazeta Polska' as well as channels such as 'Trwam' but the general mainstream TV media that a lot of people see i.e TVN and Polsat as well as TVP 2 is anti PiS. TVP used to be neutral although since PO started to interfere in that it is not starting to turn on PiS now as well.
OP Ironside 48 | 9,824
5 Jun 2011 #63
Who

read that: blog.rp.pl/ziemkiewicz/

Don't give a link to Polish text without giving a brief description in English next time.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,718
5 Jun 2011 #64
Oh puuuleeeaaaaese. They had to go with them in order to be in government.

They didn't have to - Marcinkiewicz's minority government actually was working okay. But - as we all know - Kaczynski then took power for himself (by pushing through the coalition) - which led to their eventual fall. If PiS had simply carried on as a minority government, they would've managed to serve the whole term - fair enough, they wouldn't have been able to push through many things - but minority governments led by moderates do tend to be successful at the next election. Jarek shot himself in the foot by trying to rule himself - he was unacceptable to PO, and, well - who the hell would consider Lepper and Giertych to be suitable coalition partners except someone desperate for power?

Why PiS never tried a coalition of themselves, PSL and SLD is a good question - although Kaczynski's rabid anti-Communism (what are you hiding, Jarek?) meant that couldn't work. It might not have actually been a bad government, all things considered.

Anyway, according to PiS wisdom - they called an early election in order to win decisively. It was a fair enough strategy - they could count on LPR and Samobroona's vote collapsing and those votes transferring to themselves - the only problem was that their arrogance caused them to overlook the fact that there were a lot of angry people who were going to go and vote simply to remove them from power. Don't forget - they did increase their share of the vote in 2007. As I recall, Lepper in particular knew that he was a king-maker, and wasn't afraid to remind Kaczynski of this fact.

It was nothing to do with "risking their own position" and everything to do with seizing power for themselves. They didn't have the room to bargain with LPR and Samobroona - PiS needed the support of at least two other parties to pass any legislation whatsoever. Hence - it wasn't entirely a bad strategy to call early elections.

How does this change the fact that a lot of corruption went on [probably still does]? This is what PO and the anti PiS media do they manage to turn the situation around and make those who found out about the corruption seem to be in the wrong for the way they found out. Absolute crap.

So what? PiS are staying out of power for a long, long time - thankfully. Most people would rather have PO and corruption than PiS and corruption - at least PO are ruling somewhat competently. Don't forget, what characterised PiS was the use of the security agencies to further their political agenda. PO have more or less kept away from such things.

He did not want to sign it and initially did not but there was so much pressure on him not only from Europe by the opposition that he eventually signed it. If he got what he wanted then there would be alterations made in it to suit Poland more before he signed it.

He was a coward. Lech didn't have to sign it at all - the fact that he did shows him to be what he was - a weak, malicious President who opposed many things for the sake of it. Instead of making excuses for him - perhaps you want to explain why he signed it despite having the ability to veto it repeatedly? The Government (and the SLD) didn't have the votes to overrule the veto - if he was half the man that some people make him out to be, he would've simply vetoed it.

Oh yeah absolutely nothing to fear from Russia now that Poland is in NATO. They have out back at all times now. If you think that you are just plain ignorant.

So, you think that Poland, a country in which Germany (and the UK to an ever growing extent) has significant interests, would let Russia invade? You must be kidding - if this were true, how can you explain the massive investment made on the Eastern border by EU funds?

Your paranoia about Russia is one reason why PiS lost - ordinary Poles know that they've got nothing to fear from Russia nowadays.

Actually I do pay attention I watch it almost every day and see what is going on.

TVP has been abused by politicians for years, there's nothing new there. PiS did exactly the same thing - do you need reminded about how "their man" was fired and then barricaded himself inside the building? Anyway, PiS's inability to win over the media is their own fault - you can hardly blame TVN for being against them when Jarek has been so vocal about them.

At the end of the day, PiS have no-one to blame but themselves. Kaczynski had a golden chance after the Presidential election - if he had conceded defeat with dignity, ordered PiS to shut their mouths for several months and let PO get on with governing - they would've been doing just fine. People actually liked Kaczynski's human face - it was electable, and if he had continued on the same path - they could've very well given PO a black eye in the local elections. But - he blew it. His mental problems came back, they removed the "doves" who could've won the election for him - and now they're on the path to a final devastating defeat.
OP Ironside 48 | 9,824
5 Jun 2011 #65
so vocal about them.

You are very vocal about political issues but I would like to know if you can speak Polish and how well?
Point is that without knowing the lingo, you are not able to understands politics in Poland well enough to comment on it.
Small wonder that you do not want to answer my question.

I
pawian 161 | 9,971
5 Jun 2011 #66
I think that there should be control of citizen over taxation process.

Nothing new. Over 200 years ago a few savages, politically correctly called Indians then, today called native Americans, started a rebellion because of unfair taxation. As far as I remember, they protested against high taxes on eagle feathers, or something.

f
WielkiPolak 58 | 1,034
6 Jun 2011 #67
PO have more or less kept away from such things.

That is the problem in Poland right now. Corrupt people have no problem PO because they do not stop them getting on with their businesses and a lot of younger people see PO as a more trendy and modern party who make Poland like the west and therefore like them even though they have a lot of corrupt people.

He was a coward. Lech didn't have to sign it at all - the fact that he did shows him to be what he was.

So you think that he should have not signed it? Most of Europe and PiS opposition in Poland were pressuring him to stop stalling and sign it so I wonder if you were one of those who was defending his decision not to sign.

Your paranoia about Russia is one reason why PiS lost - ordinary Poles know that they've got nothing to fear from Russia nowadays.

This is where your naivity/lack of knowledge kicks in. There are even a lot of Russians that admit you cannot trust their government. Obviously you think the crash was also an accident or bad preperation by the Polish side I assume. There are a number of pieces of information from the crash that do not add up, particularly in the way the Russians dealt with the catastrophe. This is why you have to be wary of Russia. I am not talking about them invading the country I am talking about them quietly killing people who annoy them.

Last but not least why have you not answered ironside's question on your Polish language skills? It is interesting where your source of knowledge is from. Do you actually read and watch the Polish media in Polish or get your information from English sources? I think even a nuetral viewer that turned on TVN or Polsat would be able to see that there is one party who gets constantly lambasted, every day. Most PiS politicians do not get to answer the question they are asked. The question is asked and then answered by the interviewer. They might as well be having an interview them themselves since they do not let most PiS politicians speak.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,718
6 Jun 2011 #68
That is the problem in Poland right now.

Thanks, but Poland already had 44 years of people telling us how to run our businesses. Enough is enough.

And yes, people want Poland to be like the West. They don't want Poland to regress to the dark days of 1935, with rampant Polonization and utter refuse to embrace any sort of diversity.

So you think that he should have not signed it?

I think he should have done what he said he was going to do and not sign it. It was his decision as President - as such, I'd have respected his decision. I might have called him an idiot, but I'd have respected him much more for holding his ground. As it was - he bottled it at the last moment. The "No" side of Europe was looking at him - and he capitulated in the face of pressure.

My own feelings are moot - I only think that he should have been man enough to refuse to sign it no matter what. After all the rhetoric against Germany, Russia, et al - he had the chance to really show that he was going to say no in the face of massive pressure. And he didn't - he gave in. And for that reason - I think he was a coward.

This is where your naivity/lack of knowledge kicks in.

Oh please, not Smolensk again. Incidentally, you do realise (as someone who says he understands Poland, you do know what the Constitution says, right?) that Lech Kaczynski had very little power - and was of little to no interest to Russia? Why on earth would Russia *want* such spotlight on them - especially as it's not their style anyway?

Last but not least why have you not answered ironside's question on your Polish language skills?

My skills? Probably about B2 on the European language scale. Writing/speaking is a bit poorer, though. As for my sources of information? I don't watch TV much (never much of interest on there, except when there's cross party debates) - but newspapers - I read Rzeczpospolita, Gazeta Wyborcza, and whatever PiS paper has the most interesting stories. The problem is that the PiS newspapers are behaving exactly like PiS - instead of opposing, they're whining and creating hysterical nonsense.

The problems that PiS have are obvious - instead of acting as the main Opposition in Poland, they're too busy personally attacking PO and blaming the President for all sorts. It's unelectable - and you can see that PiS have done more or less nothing to change that. I'm politically neutral (voted for the local Poznan party in the last elections) - but anyone can see that PiS have more or less caused all their problems because of themselves.

I've said it until I'm sick in the face - if PiS dropped the homophobia, dropped the bonehead thugs and concentrated on a good natured Catholic Socialism programme - they'd have a chance of winning the election. But kicking out the PJN guys in "revenge" and focusing on imagined enemies simply isn't electable in modern Poland.
WielkiPolak 58 | 1,034
6 Jun 2011 #69
Thanks, but Poland already had 44 years of people telling us how to run our businesses.

This is a shame that Poland want to be like the west and it is a shame you feel that there are only 2 paths we can take, be like the 'civilised' west or like the 'dark age,' savage east. I know Poland has had many problems in the past and financially yes, they want to have a democracy and be more well off like much of the west is, that is why so many people have left there, but as far as the values they have, the west does not have much to offer and Poland should stick with the Catholic values they have had for hundreds of years. They should not adhere to the rules set for them by Brussels and Europe in general, that I should say is slowly slipping away from its Christian heritage. If you are not a Catholic or Christian it is fine, you do not have to be, but Catholicism and Christianity generally is part of Poland, it is the culture of Poland, not just a religion, so it should stay. I think that a lot of people in Poland, particularly the younger people, want to forget that and just concentrate on money and a good life for themselves, materially. It is up to them how they live, but as I said, it is a shame.

I think he should have done what he said he was going to do and not sign it. It was his decision as President - as such, I'd have respected his decision. I might have called him an idiot, but I'd have respected him much more for holding his ground.

This is a strange view. I think if he did not sign you would be ranting about how stupid he was not to. Since he did sign, due to so many people pressuring him to sign, suddenly you say that he is a coward. I think he just gave in because he felt so many people were for the signiture of it, that even though he did not want to do it, he also knew he is part of a democracy and went for what most people in Poland want.

Incidentally, you do realise (as someone who says he understands Poland, you do know what the Constitution says, right?) that Lech Kaczynski had very little power - and was of little to no interest to Russia?

I think one has to know more about the Russians to understand the way they think, in reference to the government. Our former president did certain things that really made Putin angry. In fact he hated him! This would be a fantastic oppurtunity to get rid of him on his own turf. What a gift. An airplane full of polititians with most of the polititians from PiS [who are anti Russia]. Obviously after the crash if they supposedly seem to care it takes the suspicion off them but they did enough very 'strange' things to keep the suspicions on them. Now I am absolutely not saying that is was definately a planned attack but we do not have the facts yet and it was not wise to let the Russians take charge of the investigation. They are hardly going to put blame on themselves or admit it was their plan all along are they? Truth is we might not know what really happened for a long time. Just as many people say it is absurd to suggest it was a 'zamach' it is also absurd to so it was definately not, we simply do not have the evidence to make that conclusion but this is a very serious matter and should continue to be investigated.
Antek_Stalich 5 | 997
6 Jun 2011 #70
wielki pan, Wielki Polak, I can see a pattern ;-)
rybnik 18 | 1,462
11 Jun 2011 #71
What must be done to improve politics in Poland?

To begin with choose better entrance songs for your respective conventions: PiS chose "We will rock you" by Queen; PO went with "Jump" by Van Halen......Watching the old and tired Kaczynski enter the hall to Queen's anthem just didn't work. :)
WielkiPolak 58 | 1,034
12 Jun 2011 #72
To be honest I don't know why they even have 'entrance' music, it's not a boxing match.


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