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Jagiellonian Politics on Steroids


GefreiterKania 30 | 1252
26 Jan 2023 #1
Łukasz Warzecha is skating on thin ice again (skating in duet with the spirit of Roman Dmowski, to use a poetic expression).

In his latest article in "Do Rzeczy"* he gently pierces ever larger holes in the picture of Polish government's pro-Ukrainian policies. In the light of ever tightening Polish-Ukrainian ties, and plans of tightening them even more in the future, Warzecha starts with three questions:

- Does Poland have enough strength to take the burden of civilising Ukrainian corrupt public life?
- Wouldn't Ukraine joining NATO put the greatest strain of Poland?
- Are we able to support in even larger measure the ruined economy of our neighbour?

Not only does he criticise the Jagiellonian dream of Gieroyc but he seems to be even more critical towards the unconditional support for Zelensky's Ukraine. His other main points are that: Russia is far from being defeated, the war can last for a very long time and that closer Polish-Ukrainian ties can end up not in westernizing Ukraine but rather easternising Poland (I should probably use "occidentalising" and "orientalising" but I'm trying to use simpler language for the benefit of johnny_reb ;)).

Anyways, Warzecha is dancing with the spirit of Dmowski who always thought that Polish-Lithuanian union was the biggest mistake in our history, and that Poland should consolidate her gains in the West and stick to the West, instead of losing blood and resources on the eastern steppes. I don't agree with Dmowski, by the way; if history took the turn he would have preferred, Poland wouldn't be Poland today, but some sort of Northern Czechia.

I wonder how long will Warzecha be allowed to wage his little anti-Jagiellonian war. The example of "Myśl Polska" shows that sad gentlemen in black suits might pay him a courteous visit soon. ;)

* Łukasz Warzecha, Polityka jagiellońska na sterydach, Do Rzeczy 4/511, 23-29 January 2023, pp. 46-47
Paulina 16 | 4395
26 Jan 2023 #2
Does Poland have enough strength (...) the greatest strain of Poland (...) Are we able to support

Um... Why does he make it all about Poland? There are quite a few of other countries in the EU and NATO, so all of that won't depend just on Poland.

easternising Poland

PiS has been already "easternising" Poland since it came to power without any help from Ukrainians, eh... ;((((
OP GefreiterKania 30 | 1252
26 Jan 2023 #3
*Giedroyc

@Paulina

Yes, I think Warzecha is wrong in his anti-Jagiellonian fixation, but it's good to have such voices heard as a contrast. Hopefully, Do Rzeczy will not share the fate of Myśl Polska.
Alien 21 | 5267
26 Jan 2023 #4
Poland .... some sort of Northern Czechia.

That sounds pretty good, have to keep that in mind.
Kashub1410 6 | 651
26 Jan 2023 #5
@GefreiterKania
First it seems that Warzecha is basing his view on how eastern Poland is developing/improved compared to western Poland.

As far as I know Poland won't gain any form of direct/formal control over Ukraine so such worries are misplaced.

Besides, west has lost everything that was positive about in recent years, it has turned in to such decadence that it's compareable with falling Byzantium, falling western Rome and falling China of the 19th century.

Influx and increased contact with Ukraine and the east in general will not only keep Poland on it's toes, increase it's discipline and attention but, also create a stronger block of slowing down any decadence simply cause "We don't have time for that, look at Russia in Ukraine!"

Poland is still keeping it's democratical and anti-tyranical traditions alive. Mostly thanks to Polish women at large, given evidence from posters such as @Lenka, @Paulina and @pawian

So I don't worry about easternization of Poland, far from it. Far more concerned about practices who turn people away from love, but shoves it in to hate, malice and will to dominate all life. As one by one, countries fell to that power in the west.
OP GefreiterKania 30 | 1252
26 Jan 2023 #6
As far as I know Poland won't gain any form of direct/formal control over Ukraine so such worries are misplaced.

That's another thing Warzecha is wondering about - reminding us about Zelensky's and Duda's statements about there being no border between Ukraine and Poland, and about the plans of Polish-Ukrainian federation, expressed by some politicians and journalists, some time ago...

twitter.com/konfederacja_/status/1516323073594691587

dorzeczy.pl/opinie/310606/budzisz-chce-federacji-polsko-ukrainskiej-publicysta-w-ogniu-krytyki.html

... sure, it's all political fiction at the moment, but hey - stranger things happened in history.
Paulina 16 | 4395
26 Jan 2023 #7
@GefreiterKania, I don't think Zelensky and Duda meant that "no border" comment literally lol

about the plans of Polish-Ukrainian federation, expressed by some politicians and journalists, some time ago...

You mean that tweet by Konfederacja? ;D
That's a great fuel for RuSSian propaganda, btw.

how eastern Poland is developing/improved compared to western Poland.

Oh dear, I see you have no idea what you're talking about... 🤦
Kashub1410 6 | 651
26 Jan 2023 #8
@Paulina
Developing worse (economically) it was ironic
OP GefreiterKania 30 | 1252
26 Jan 2023 #9
You mean that tweet by Konfederacja?

Not only Konfederacja but also serious politicians and journalists...

pap.pl/mediaroom/1157095%2Copowiadamy-sie-za-unia-polsko-ukrainska-wspolna-deklaracja-polskich-elit

wpolityce.pl/polityka/603460-proponuje-utworzenie-unii-polsko-ukrainskiej

youtube.com/watch?v=GC-IbE4BoMI

... the whole hype died down with time but, as I said, the idea might come back and stranger things happened. Just saying.
Kashub1410 6 | 651
26 Jan 2023 #10
Sorry Kania, signing out. No need for me to tolerate stuff I dislike anymore
Paulina 16 | 4395
26 Jan 2023 #11
@Kashub1410, I doubt that when Warzecha was talking about "easternisation" he meant Eastern Poland. I'm guessing he meant Eastern Europe.

Not only Konfederacja but also serious politicians and journalists...

???

That link from PAP doesn't work, the second link is some French guy who clearly doesn't know what he's talking about and the third link is one right-wing professor.

Hardly "serious politicians and journalists"...
OP GefreiterKania 30 | 1252
26 Jan 2023 #12
That link from PAP doesn't work

Hmm... strange, it works for me (try adding "www" in front of the link)...

pap.pl/mediaroom/1157095%2Copowiadamy-sie-za-unia-polsko-ukrainska-wspolna-deklaracja-polskich-elit

... maybe Gowin, Przybylski, Gdula or Bielecki are not first-league politicians but serious enough, and that proves that the idea "floated" in the political sphere and collective consciousness, so to speak. Is it likely to happen? I don't think so. But is it possible? Never say never.
Paulina 16 | 4395
26 Jan 2023 #13
@GefreiterKania, thanks, the link works after adding "www".

pap.pl/mediaroom/1157095%2Copowiadamy-sie-za-unia-polsko-ukrainska-wspolna-deklaracja-polskich-elit

When did Zelensky talked about creating Polish-Ukrainian Union? That's the first time I've heard of it o_O
OP GefreiterKania 30 | 1252
26 Jan 2023 #14
When did Zelensky talked about creating Polish-Ukrainian Union?

I read about it some time ago but I'm not quite sure if it was said directly or was only inferred from his words. One way or another, such idea floated around and that's what Warzecha referred to.
Paulina 16 | 4395
26 Jan 2023 #15
@GefreiterKania, it looks like Zelensky's words were misinterpreted, because if he said something like this, it would be all over the news and I can't find anything. I only found former advisor to Zelensky, Arestovych, talking about some kind of possible future alliance between Ukraine and Poland.

maybe Gowin, Przybylski, Gdula or Bielecki

They didn't mean a formal union - both claims about their words and Zelensky's words are debunked in this article:

konkret24.tvn24.pl/polityka/polscy-politycy-sa-za-stworzeniem-unii-polsko-ukrainskiej-pietrowe-przeklamanie-ra1103101
OP GefreiterKania 30 | 1252
26 Jan 2023 #16
Sure, politician's words can be misinterpreted and very often are. It doesn't change the fact that the idea floated around, was debated and some nationwide newspapers and weeklies printed articles about it (GW and Najwyższy Czas, as far as I can remember, possibly others too).
Paulina 16 | 4395
26 Jan 2023 #17
@GefreiterKania, yeah, the idea floated around, was debated (usually criticized by serious media from what I've noticed) and died of natural causes ;)
Lernende
28 Jan 2023 #18
Poland should consolidate her gains in the West a

Polish people worry that Germans want to take their eastern lands back? It is out of the question for Germans and only some madmen like radical right dream about Wroclau or Gdansk.
OP GefreiterKania 30 | 1252
28 Jan 2023 #19
@Lernende

Dmowski was talking about the times of Polish-Lithuanian Union (Middle Ages).

I know that Germany has no territorial claims on Poland today.


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