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What must be done to improve politics in Poland?


Ironside 48 | 9,748
16 Feb 2011  #1
I think that there should be control of citizen over taxation process. I mean that every tax should be temporary.
The people should vote directly - about all issues connected with taxation and taxes !
Only then state can be controlled by the people!
What do you think about that - discus !

No ideas ?

j
czar 1 | 143
17 Feb 2011  #2
i was born and live in america 3rd gen ok so my knowledge on this topic is left to PF and alot of historical and current speculative guessing

not to try to steal this thread but my question was:

how is the co-operation of germany and russia attributed to polands well being? i wouldnt even know where to search this so,

other than a pre ww2 non agretion pact, i read that leading up to the war that Germany was making claims and sanctions on poland much like pre-emptive war that we see today.

im not trying to steal a thread, this is my opinion that poland is threatend politicaly (and surviving as a country) by russia and germany or EU lets say partnering and giving poland the squeeze for lack of a better term.

i see tusk as a german and much like poland is/was the bread basket, that politically speaking the handle of the basket is anchored to germany and russia, haha sorry for that, am i wrong or is it obvious, either way the implications are dire and when a staunch nationalist pokes his head up he loses it,

not that nationalism is the answer or that the president was assassinated but ok i ramble and i realize im american, bye.
ShortHairThug - | 1,103
17 Feb 2011  #3
how is the co-operation of germany and russia attributed to polands well being?

Historically speaking, a recipe for disaster. LOL
delphiandomine 83 | 17,648
17 Feb 2011  #4
im not trying to steal a thread, this is my opinion that poland is threatend politicaly (and surviving as a country) by russia and germany or EU lets say partnering and giving poland the squeeze for lack of a better term.

Poland was free to do as she pleased in 1989. No-one made Poland apply for EU membership in 1994, after all.

i see tusk as a german

Tusk is more Polish than you'll ever be, sunshine.

either way the implications are dire

The implications are just fine. Germany has made it clear since 1990 that Poland is a strategic partner in the EU - and in fact, Polish-German relations are usually very good.
OP Ironside 48 | 9,748
17 Feb 2011  #5
i see tusk as a german and much like poland is/was the bread basket, that politically speaking the handle of the basket is anchored to germany and russia, haha sorry for that, am i wrong or is it obvious, either way the implications are dire

yeah, more or less....

im not trying to steal a thread, this is my opinion that poland is threatend politicaly (and surviving as a country) by russia and germany or EU lets say partnering and giving poland the squeeze for lack of a better term.

just about, they are able to do it thanks to the enemy within !

I think that realisticly speaking, population can regain control of the politics by controlling monies, i.e. taxes !
hague1cmaeron 14 | 1,377
17 Feb 2011  #6
Make sure that PIS does not get into government this year, and ensure that PO wins a second term.
Teffle 22 | 1,321
17 Feb 2011  #7
What exactly do you mean by "controlling taxes?"
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
17 Feb 2011  #8
Pol-Ger relations are fairly good, but why does Germany discriminate its 2-million-strong Polonia? No benefits of the type enjoyed by other minorities, Polish divorced parents must speak German to their kids in the presence of a Jugendamt official...

Meanwhile, ethnic Germans in Poland have it very good, even two permanent seats in parliament, German-language signs in Opole vdshp, German taught in Opole schools, etc., itd, usw...
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,750
17 Feb 2011  #9
Pol-Ger relations are fairly good, but why does Germany discriminate its 2-million-strong Polonia? No benefits of the type enjoyed by other minorities, Polish divorced parents must speak German to their kids in the presence of a Jugendamt official...

Because they immigrated into Germany and are not a native minority?
Just a guess...
Germans in Poland didn't immigrate into Poland, the borders shifted over their heads.
Turks don't get minority rights either...

Oh and not the same Jugendamt crap again....if there was no polish speaking worker around and the contact was only allowed with supervision then it's fairly logical..
delphiandomine 83 | 17,648
17 Feb 2011  #10
No benefits of the type enjoyed by other minorities

They're not national minorities, but economic migrants.

Why doesn't the Polish government recognise the British minority here? Same situation - we're economic migrants, not national minorities.

Polish divorced parents must speak German to their kids in the presence of a Jugendamt official...

Quite sensible. I'd like to see the reaction of a Polish official to a German speaking German to his children if the deal is supervised contact only. Quite honestly - anyone who is deemed dangerous enough to demand a supervision order is bound to be a bit nuts.

Meanwhile, ethnic Germans in Poland have it very good, even two permanent seats in parliament, German-language signs in Opole vdshp, German taught in Opole schools, etc., itd, usw...

They're national minorities due to changing borders. It's completely different to moving to another country for economic reasons.

Incidentally, the Sorbs have minority rights in Germany. But they aren't economic migrants.
isthatu2 4 | 2,708
17 Feb 2011  #11
The people should vote directly - about all issues connected with taxation and taxes !
Only then state can be controlled by the people!

Yes,but there lies the problem,would you really want "the people" making decisions that effect your countries future? I know here in the UK I wouldnt,more people vote for X factor contestants than in elections,the Sun and Daily mail are the biggest selling newspapers etc...unfortunatly I cant see Poland being intrinsicaly that different these days,the only people voting are the elderly and zealous nut jobs from extremist parties.

anyone who is deemed dangerous enough to demand a supervision order is bound to be a bit nuts.

bollox.
OP Ironside 48 | 9,748
17 Feb 2011  #12
Yes,but there lies the problem,would you really want "the people" making decisions that effect your countries future?

I think about people voting locally and openly.
I think that we all know what is a future politicians wants and I would take a chance with the people rather, than be a puppet on the string!
gumishu 11 | 5,012
17 Feb 2011  #13
Why doesn't the Polish government recognise the British minority here? Same situation - we're economic migrants, not national minorities.

what are the figures of the British in Poland? are they somehow locally concentrated? is there any point of state-funding schools teaching in English (at least at the moment)? what is actually the point of recognizing British minority in Poland?

still I think that at some point in not very remote future Poland needs to accept English as the second official language of the country so everyone capable of speaking English can have his things sorted with national and local governments - hopefully as a part of a general EU policy

Meanwhile, ethnic Germans in Poland have it very good, even two permanent seats in parliament, German-language signs in Opole vdshp, German taught in Opole schools, etc., itd, usw...

there are hardly any German nationals in Poland (I bet the figure is lower than 50 000) - having said that I don't mind German-language signs around Opole (but I only speak for myself)

if you quote the official figures on German-minority in Poland (census results for example) I can well challenge you on that
jonni 16 | 2,485
17 Feb 2011  #14
what are the figures of the British in Poland? are they somehow locally concentrated? is there any point of state-funding schools teaching in English (at least at the moment)? what is actually the point of recognizing British minority in Poland?

A few years ago (prior to EU entry) the embassy were guessing 8,000. This was based on the number of people who'd registered with them and includes people who identify as Poles but with British passports. The British Embassy in Warsaw is comically useless - and I suspect the figure today is many times higher.

Nobody really keeps a figure, and Polish bureaucracy (and nationalistic issues due to a highly compromised history of national independence) is such that they don't recognise the British minority in the same way that the Polish minority is recognised in the UK. What's the point? Reciprocity - Poles in the UK get quite a good deal, especially if they have school age kids, are looking for social housing or need to claim benefits. This should work both ways. Look at the various hurdles when you want to vote or join a Trade Union.

What can be done to improve politics in PL?
Relect PO, keep PiS where they belong, in obscurity. On a city level, keep out the PiS/SLD mafia. Above all, remove the communist style immunity from the law that politicians and even some civil servants enjoy and rigorously prosecute corruption, from a 10 zloty bribe to a million zloty kickback. Overhaul the scandalously inefficient legal system, so trhis can be dealt with quickly and not drag on for years. Publish the full names of those arrested or convicted like freer countries do. Not just "Jaroslaw K" etc. And stop managers in the public sectoe employing relatives.
gumishu 11 | 5,012
17 Feb 2011  #15
Relect PO, keep PiS where they belong, on obscurity. On a city level, keep out the PiS/SLD mafia. Above all, remove the communist style immunity from the law that politicians and even some civil servants enjoy.

the most possible outcome of the coming election is a coaltion of PO + SLD - do your really believe it is the most desired outcome?

and since you are living in Poland jonni you shouldn't be surprised when in two years cost of electric energy will soar to double the present prices because the current government cares more to extract EU concessions on how the budget deficit should be calculated than protecting Poland from the effects of planned climatic European agreements - you don't after all mind, jonni, if the unemployment in Poland rises to 20 per cent in the aftermath 'cause it won't affect you anyway, or will it?

btw jonni can you somehow solve a mystery why the taxes collected in Poland dropped about 5 per cent compared to the times of PiS(+coalition) government while Poland being this spectacular 'green island' in Europe

btw jonni - how on Earth is it possible that PO couldn't pass a law that removes immunity from MP's? in all these long 3 years? and as for PiS mafia have you actually any examples of such - I know PiS can be attributed hystery - the thing is you can hardly find histeriacs' mafias, don't you agree?
jonni 16 | 2,485
17 Feb 2011  #16
PiS mafia have you actually any examples of such - I know PiS can be attributed hystery - the thing is you can hardly find histeriacs' mafias, don't you agree?

As their idol Lech Kaczynski said when PiS (briefly) got the Warsaw mayorality "Teraz kurwa my".

Fortunately the people of Poland have shown they don't want PiS. They didn't even let them complete a whole term of office.

BTW, gumishu, what was the unemployment figure under the failed PiS regime?

Live, rather than "are living". The rest is pure comedy!
delphiandomine 83 | 17,648
17 Feb 2011  #17
the most possible outcome of the coming election is a coaltion of PO + SLD - do your really believe it is the most desired outcome?

The most desired outcome is PO + PSL, with an agreement to reform farmers taxes. That's not going to happen, unless PO have a viable offer from the SLD.

PO + SLD wouldn't be that bad. Napieralski could be an effective deputy Prime Minister - and the SLD certainly have the experience with government. The only issue is that the SLD would probably block reform of labour law - which is sorely needed.

PO might not be perfect, but they're about the best choice for Poland. PiS would commence witchhunts on a grand scale if re-elected, the SLD won't take an axe to Solidarity and the PSL - well - they're doomed to being eternal coalition partners.

I wouldn't be surprised to see PO run as a minority government next time round.
gumishu 11 | 5,012
17 Feb 2011  #18
Poles in the UK get quite a good deal, especially if they have school age kids, are looking for social housing or need to claim benefits. This should work both ways. Look at the various hurdles when you want to vote or join a Trade Union.

do you know what is child benefit in Poland worth, jonni? or what is the availability of social housing perhaps? or do you perhaps belive that the British in Poland should receive the same amount of benefit they do in the UK and the same standard of social housing as in Britain?

some issues, like Trade Unions, should be addressed 'cause they are real concerns for the British population in Poland - one can imagine the need for a trade union for native-speaker teachers (or at least be able to join Polish trade unions) - the same goes to voting - if you are a legal resident of Poland (perhaps refugees should be excluded) you should be able to vote here - but then you shouldn't be able to vote back in Britain, don't you think?
jonni 16 | 2,485
17 Feb 2011  #19
if you are a legal resident of Poland (perhaps refugees should be excluded) you should be able to vote here - but then you shouldn't be able to vote back in Britain, don't you think?

Yes - but remember (if you knew in the first place, which is unlikely to say the least) that UK citizens lose the right to vote after a short period of absence anyway, and that Poland (illegaly) discouraged non Polish EU citizens from registering to vote. Whereas in the UK, Polish migrants are encouraged to register.

do you know what is child benefit in Poland worth, jonni? or what is the availability of social housing perhaps?

Irrelevant, since British residents in PL don't get it. Until someone gets a lawyer and goes to Europe. And that would really cost the authorities.
gumishu 11 | 5,012
17 Feb 2011  #20
BTW, gumishu, what was the unemployment figure under the failed PiS regime?

it was lower than today's (it was as low as 10 per cent IIRC) - I don't attribute that too much to how PiS government was competent because it was mostly the effect of European and global growth

Fortunately the people of Poland have shown they don't want PiS. They didn't even let them complete a whole term of office.

if Kaczyński Jr (for Jarosław) had not messed with trying to get rid of Lepper and overtake his party (the Samoobrona) the government would have served the whole term and who knows what would happen next - Kaczyński made further mistakes for example agreeing to meet with Tusk for a TV debate (to name just one) - he had clearly underestimated Tusk - and it had quite a serious impact of the election results
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163
17 Feb 2011  #21
and ensure that PO wins a second term.

Have you heard lately what economosits and business people are talking about this "government" ? The second therm for these fools would totally ruin this country.
jonni 16 | 2,485
17 Feb 2011  #22
if Kaczyński Jr (for Jarosław) had not messed with trying to get rid of Lepper and overtake his party (the Samoobrona)

That's part of it all. They only managed to assume power by forming a coalition with a party of criminals and a party of racists. In the election in which they were removed from office those parties too were wiped out, and the Polish people showed they wanted Platforma/PSL.
gumishu 11 | 5,012
17 Feb 2011  #23
The rest is pure comedy!

so you mean a 5-per-cent drop in collected taxes under PO government is comedy? if it amounts to some 12 mld PLN does it all matter? sure it doesn't

btw collected tax in 2009 was ca 277mld (billion) PLN - in 2010 the budget draft prognosed 249 mld PLN from collected taxes - wikipedia states that economic growth in Poland was 3.8 per cent in 2010 - some adding some subtracting and either is our Treasury hardly competent or they gave up on some taxes - have you heard of explicit taxes being lowered around 2009 2010?
jonni 16 | 2,485
17 Feb 2011  #24
Have you heard also of their failed PiS attempts to tax the personal income of Poles working abroad.
Did they a/ think that those Poles should pay tax twice, b/ think that Poland was more entitled to the money instead of the place the people actually live, as if it were a tax on ethnicity, c/ not care or d/hadn't thought about it much?

But since they were removed from office they weren't able to do much damage.
OP Ironside 48 | 9,748
17 Feb 2011  #25
But since they were removed from office they weren't able to do much damage.

In my understanding PiS is the party which attempt to change a situation in Poland, while PO is there only for personal gain.
So your appeal for fighting corruption is exactly what PiS tried to do!
However I will vote for anybody who would guarantee implementation of taxation into the people hands, reform !
Torq 26 | 2,371
17 Feb 2011  #26
What must be done to improve politics in Poland?

FIRST:

1. Establish single member constituencies (jednomandatowe okręgi wyborcze) for Sejm and Senat.
2. Lower taxes and abolish most of the laws and regulations regarding private enterprise,
building, services, trade and commerce.
3. After abolishing the useless and harmful laws, immediately fire 90% of public servants.
4. Start a real pro-family government programs to encourage population growth.
5. Improve and tighten as much as possible the relations within Visehrad group (even if it's
going to cost us some money.)
6. Conduct a thorough financial lustration of top businessmen and politicians.
7. Establish a special Army Tax (on reasonable level) to build a strong professional army
(fire 50% of generals and colonels on useless administrative positions - leave those
necessary for the battle value of the army.)
8. Create powerful, common Territorial Defense, based on conscription and voluntary service.

Later when economy flourishes:

9. Conduct a large scale repatriation of Poles from former USSR.
10. Encourage Poles from all over the world to settle in Poland, by tax reliefs and government
aid programs.
11. Acquire nuclear weapons.
12. Invest some of the budget surplus into farming and ecological energy use.
13. Using newly gained economic power, extend the influence from V4 group to:
Belarus, Ukraine, Lithuania, Romania, Bulgaria and post-Yugoslavia zone.

And a little something for my own personal pleasure:

14. Strip Adam Michnik of all honours and state decorations :)
gumishu 11 | 5,012
17 Feb 2011  #27
Have you heard also of their failed PiS attempts to tax the personal income of Poles working abroad.

never heard of that - which does not mean it did not happen

But since they were removed from office they weren't able to do much damage.

and what damage did they actualy do - restrict yourself to the taxation 'cause we are currently talking of taxation as you must have notices

I sometimes think that yes, much damage has been done, but mostly to the ability of the general population to think for themselves and it cannot be attributed to the PiS being in power
jonni 16 | 2,485
17 Feb 2011  #28
never heard of that - which does not mean it did not happen

Because PiS failed in the attempt. As with most other things they tried.
gumishu 11 | 5,012
17 Feb 2011  #29
gumishu:
never heard of that - which does not mean it did not happen

Because PiS failed in the attempt. As with most other things they tried.

I am not sure you understand the case completely - just read about it and it is very different from what you claim

I can give you the source in Polish (though the source seems to be self-contradictory on at least one point - still it is completely indepent from goverment)

nettax.pl/serwis/nowosci/2008/080407_11.htm
jonni 16 | 2,485
17 Feb 2011  #30
the source seems to be self-contradictory on at least one point

Not least because the idea was never thought through. Just the PiS tactic of generating hot air while actually doing nothing.


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