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Chechen Congress in Poland, Russia frowns


Velund 1 | 413
17 Sep 2010 #31
From the same source...

On 31 August 1999, at 20:00 local time, a powerful explosion took place in a busy Moscow shopping center. One person was killed and 40 others injured.

On 4 September 1999, at 22:00, a car bomb detonated outside a five story apartment building in the city of Buynaksk. The building was housing Russian border guard soldiers and their families. 64 people were killed and 133 were injured in the explosion.

On 9 September 1999, shortly after midnight local time, at 20:00 GMT, 300 to 400 kg of explosives detonated on the ground floor of an apartment building in south-east Moscow (19 Guryanova Street). The nine-story building was destroyed, killing 94 people inside and injuring 249 others. 15 nearby buildings were also damaged.

On 13 September 1999, at 5:00 a.m., a large bomb exploded in a basement of an apartment block on Kashirskoye Highway in southern Moscow, about 6 km from the place of the last attack. 118 people died and 200 were injured.

A truck bomb exploded on 16 September 1999, outside a nine-story apartment complex in the southern Russian city of Volgodonsk, killing 17 people and injuring 69.

Compare the dates, of course...
OP pawian 173 | 12,668
17 Sep 2010 #32
From the same source...

Ok, the Chechen terrorist Zakayev goes to Moscow for trial while Russian terrorists in their Russian military uniforms go to Hague for trial.

Agreed?

Why to Hague and not locally, in Moscow?

On April 29, 2004, a Russian court in Rostov-on-Don acquitted four GRU special forces unit officers of the shooting dead six Chechen civilians including a disabled woman. In the incident in January 2000, Cpt. Eduard Ulman's unit killed a civilian and subsequently extrajudicially executed five more with silenced weapons; the commandos then burned the bodies in the victims' vehicle. They were again found not guilty in a retrial on May 19, 2005; although the four admitted to the killings, the court ruled that their actions were not punishable as they had been following orders. The acquittals of Cpt. Ulman and his three subordinates sparked a public outrage in Chechnya, where rights advocates and many Chechens say Russian forces act with impunity. During the third court hearings Ulman and the two officers mysteriously disappeared

Chechen leader Akhmed Zakayev, detained today in Warsaw in connection with a Russian prosecution against him on terrorist charges, was released Friday evening after a court ruling.

The court ruling noted Zakayev’s refugee status in the UK, and said Poland, as part of the EU, must respect this status.

Marek11111 9 | 816
17 Sep 2010 #33
I agree on one condition - all Russian military criminals who comitted war crimes in Chechenya, including levelling Chechen villages by carpet bombing, will be sent to independent European courts in Hague and handled in a proper way.
There is no excuse for killing innocent civilians - these are your own words which are correct.

I will include U.S. military and Israel military the point is we need to prosecute war criminals to the fullest as war is evil.
Velund 1 | 413
17 Sep 2010 #34
Agreed?

What will happen if I will say "Yes"? What differences we'll observe if I will say "No"?

And, by the way, Polish justice already said their word... So, nothing more to discuss here.

I will include U.S. military and Israel military the point is we need to prosecute war criminals to the fullest as war is evil.

Sounds to me similar to phrase "I hate racism and nigg@s"... ;)

You think about prosecuting the ones who must follow orders under fear of another prosecution, but what about ones who issued that orders?
Marek11111 9 | 816
17 Sep 2010 #35
Velund:
You think about prosecuting the ones who must follow orders under fear of another prosecution, but what about ones who issued that orders?

No Velum, in Nuremberg after ww2 germans were deny of using the defense “ I was following orders “ as they proceciutors say they could refuse orders.

Anyone who uses the military weapons to kill civilian needs to be prosecuted as war criminal
I am aware of one exclusion to this stand was german pilots that bomb civilian targets in England were not prosecuted as they would have to prosecuted allied pilots for the same crimes.
Velund 1 | 413
17 Sep 2010 #36
in Nuremberg after ww2 germans were deny of using the defense “ I was following orders “ as they proceciutors say they could refuse orders.

Well, I'm officer (in reserve) of Russian Army, tank forces.

Imagine that I'm tank commander and hear the order radioed to me - "red brick building, second right from the road, ATM launcher inside, destroy"...

Here is two options of what I will do...

1. I'll say "Sorry, Sir, I cannot see through walls, there may be civilians inside as well. Think what tribunal in Hague would say..."

2. Quickly select HE shell on loading system (if not loaded already), target well and happily press the trigger, praying that the guy in that building didn't manage to press their first.

Try to imagine, which option I will select in real life....
Marek11111 9 | 816
17 Sep 2010 #37
Velund if you know there are civilians in that building and you destroy it then you need to be prosecuted as war criminal.
OP pawian 173 | 12,668
17 Sep 2010 #38
What will happen if I will say "Yes"? What differences we'll observe if I will say "No"?

Well, I was curious. Were you ready to admit that Russian military should be tried before independent courts for their crimes in Chechenya?

You nicely evaded the question. Good work! :):):):)

Imagine that I'm tank commander and hear the order radioed to me - "red brick building, second right from the road, ATM launcher inside, destroy"....

You forgot to add the third option:

3. I may think: "What if the building is occupied by civilians? Should I press the button? .......
hmm.... if they are still there, it means they support the terrorists. To hell with them!" Then quickly select HE shell on loading system (if not loaded already), target well and happily press the trigger, praying that the guy in that building didn't manage to press their first.

Well, I'm officer (in reserve) of Russian Army, tank forces.

Hello, Velund. I am a teacher from Poland and my favourite subject is history. :):):):)
Dougpol3 1 | 40
17 Sep 2010 #39
Disgraceful that the bloke was ever arrested and it makes Poland the laughing stock - as ever. When is this country going to get to grips with it's inner city deprivation and severe social problems and stop punching above it's weight.

Sick and tired of waiting for some action.
Velund 1 | 413
17 Sep 2010 #40
3. I may think: "What if the building is occupied by civilians? Should I press the button? .......

And, highly possible, my so liberal and humanity-filled brain will be well mixed with my not so pleasant looking sh*t and that mix will be fried well with kerosene flames, if the guy in that building is lucky one.

And even if the guy is not so lucky, I would prefer to face (maybe, sometime in future) with judges of Hague tribunal rather than face with field tribunal of my own army. ;)

Hello, Velund. I am a teacher from Poland and my favourite subject is history. :):):):)

And I'm currently electronics engineer, head of R&D department of small company manufacturing some aftermarket automotive electronics. And, as I said above, reserve officer of tank forces... ;)

Believe me, I would always prefer to visit Poland as electronics engineer on a car... ;)
OP pawian 173 | 12,668
17 Sep 2010 #41
When is this country going to get to grips with it's inner city deprivation and severe social problems and stop punching above it's weight.

Why are you out of the blue talking about the USA in a thread about Chechen matters? I don`t understand.....

And, highly possible, my so liberal and humanity-filled brain will be well mixed with my not so pleasant looking sh*t and that mix will be fried well with kerosene flames, if the guy in that building is lucky one.

Yes, soldiers` dilemmas. That is why I never wanted to be a soldier, although I am deeply interested in the history of wars. :):):)

And even if the guy is not so lucky, I would prefer to face (maybe, sometime in future) with judges of Hague tribunal rather than face with field tribunal of my own army. ;)

Again, soldier`s dilemma.

Believe me, I would always prefer to visit Poland as electronics engineer on a car... ;)

I visited Moscow in 1970s on a private trip as a small boy. We went to that giant department store near the Red Square, Univermag,and my parent bought me a small motorboat with a small electric propeller. It was one of my favourite toys in childhood. :):):):):)

What was your favourite toy?
Marek11111 9 | 816
17 Sep 2010 #42
What was your favourite toy?
widly i grabie
Velund 1 | 413
17 Sep 2010 #43
What was your favourite toy?

It was a pretty large box filled with something like this... ;) (Few sets mixed together to allow building of something decent, with all available options like electric motors and various gears).

widly i grabie

Looks like your recent childhood was not so good... ;)
OP pawian 173 | 12,668
17 Sep 2010 #44
widly i grabie

What about scythes?

f

back on topic, if you please
Marek11111 9 | 816
17 Sep 2010 #45
Looks like your recent childhood was not so good... ;)

my childhood was perfect on a farm I can not complain I am happy it was Poland not Russia
or Germany.

it was one of my toys too, used to cut grass for rabbits
OP pawian 173 | 12,668
17 Sep 2010 #46
back on topic, if you please

So, what were we talking about?

Adam Borowski, the honorary consul to the Chechen Republic in Poland told TVP television this evening that the "prosecution action taken against Akhmed Zakayev testifies to the fact that our standards of justice are closer to Russia than Europe."

Borowski noted that the same Russian prosecution documents have previously been sent to Denmark and the UK - both places where Zakayev has lived since his exile in 2003. Prosecutors in those countries found the charges against him groundless, said Borowski.

"This is a black day for Polish justice," he added.


thenews.pl/international/?id=139849
Velund 1 | 413
18 Sep 2010 #47
I am happy it was Poland not Russia or Germany.

Yeah... Looks like you are dream of any government in any country...

"Recht oder Unrecht mein Vaterland"
Dougpol3 1 | 40
18 Sep 2010 #48
Why are you out of the blue talking about the USA in a thread about Chechen matters? I don`t understand.....

What? I said that Poland has great inner city deprivation and should not be wasting my taxes on arresting a Chechan leader in exile on the whim of the Russians - but should actually be doing something more worthwhile.

Such as demolishing and rebuilding it's inner cities.

I thought my opinion was clear Pwian.
Velund 1 | 413
18 Sep 2010 #49
Such as demolishing and rebuilding it's inner cities.

Russia is demolished and rebuilt Grozny in Chechnya. Do you think it was great investment for my tax money? ;)

PS: Good luck to everyone, will fly to Vilnius in less than 10 hours and then 1000++ km trip on a car so need to sleep little bit.
Dougpol3 1 | 40
18 Sep 2010 #50
Russia is demolished and rebuilt Grozny in Chechnya. Do you think it was great investment for my tax money? ;)

Probably yes? There are less Russian boys dying out there now right? :) That's a great investment.

Of course - you could always lerave the Chechens to get on with their own affairs in their own country.

Just a thought.
OP pawian 173 | 12,668
18 Sep 2010 #51
What? I said that Poland has great inner city deprivation and should not be wasting my taxes on arresting a Chechan leader in exile on the whim of the Russians - but should actually be doing something more worthwhile.
Such as demolishing and rebuilding it's inner cities.
I thought my opinion was clear Pwian.

I am sorry, it wasn`t because I have never heard about the problem of Polish inner cities before. I knew it was a typical American problem, though. I am really sorry for this incorrect interpretation.

Russia is demolished and rebuilt Grozny in Chechnya. Do you think it was great investment for my tax money? ;)

Yes, Grozny was nicely rebuilt, one can see it in films on youtube.

However, I read Russians`complaints about their government`s huge money for Chechenya`s rebuilding while most towns and villages in Russia are proverbial armpits and lightyears from European standards.

That is the cost of keeping the Empire alive and kicking...... You kept Chechenya but an average Russian has nothing from it, except for the good mood, maybe.

Do you agree to it or not?
Velund 1 | 413
18 Sep 2010 #52
Of course - you could always lerave the Chechens to get on with their own affairs in their own country.

Last comment for today...

In the past it was independent (relatively) territory, and one of main sources of income was robbery and supplying slaves to markets of Osman empire. The same as with Crimean Tatars that supplied turkish garems with nice Russian, Ukrainian and Polish girls.

Lots of russian soldiers died there, Russia take control of Caucasus, and south of Russia become much more safe place to live after that.

In facto, they get independence in 1990's, and as you can imagine, one of most popular sources of income again become kidnapping for ransom, together with slave labor exploitation. They tried to expand for Daghestan one time, and together with massive terror bombing in Moscow caused second massive conflict, finally killing any hopes for independence (Russia MUST control this territory just for their own safety). I do not expect any changes there.

If they will get independence third time - it will last not so long, because of chechen national "business style"... We will have to fight them again and very soon.

You kept Chechenya but an average Russian has nothing from it

As I said, I'm electronic engineer. Can say which requests we constantly got in 1990's... "Some device (transmiter) that covertly worn on a kid and matching compact receiver with direction finding capabilities carried by parent. Must indicate that transmitter is out of reasonable range and allow to send signal by pressing on top of transmiter."

So, I don't think that people living in southern Russia has nothing from it.
ConstantineK 26 | 1,259
18 Sep 2010 #53
They freed him. They gave clear signal - "we are your enemy". Why we cannot bomb Poland?
Borrka 37 | 594
18 Sep 2010 #54
Why we cannot bomb Poland?

There are three reasons ... first, Russian Army got no bombs ... second ....
Borrka: thanx, that's enough !
king polkakamon - | 544
18 Sep 2010 #55
Believe me, I would always prefer to visit Poland as electronics engineer on a car... ;)

Not on a tank?
OP pawian 173 | 12,668
18 Sep 2010 #56
They freed him. They gave clear signal - "we are your enemy". Why we cannot bomb Poland?

You should have written:

<< I made another moronic post. I gave a clear signal - "I am your favourite moron." Why can`t I just shoot myself but have to hang around the Polish Forums? :):):):):):):):):) <<
Seanus 15 | 19,706
18 Sep 2010 #57
This guy is not Temirbulatov (The Tractor). Know him, CK? I think Putin is looking for mutual cooperation here, trying to make it a Polish issue.
ConstantineK 26 | 1,259
19 Sep 2010 #58
This guy is not Temirbulatov (The Tractor).

Really? Who is he then? Let me guess another cliche. "another peace fighter" or "oppressed rebel"? I hate my government for its obvious impotence. Why they cannot simply seize him on Polish territory? Why they cannot blow up all his sponsors in GB. We have experience and means, then, why they are so timid? Polish off this scum from polish territory!
Seanus 15 | 19,706
19 Sep 2010 #59
Because it's Polish territory, CK. What sponsors? The Spetsnaz catches some but they also give them weapons. Russia is full of wild types so why are you surprised? You kept the Polish journalists away from the crash site in SmoleĊ„sk when it was their God-given right to do their jobs. Paranoid, control freak country!!
ConstantineK 26 | 1,259
19 Sep 2010 #60
Because it's Polish territory, CK.

See no difference when it concerns russian defense. Poland, England, Scotland, they should fear everywhere.

What sponsors?

Berezovsky for example.


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