Abortion still under control in Poland

Something that people are strong enough to deal with and have been for centuries, not that 20 years ago in 2002 people were jailed for that in the US.

Fortunately, terminations are available throughout Europe. If one state prevents it, a 10zl bus ride away there's a clinic that knot hobbled by a theocratic regime.

If I may venture to ask, why do we need sluts in society? Abortion isn't contraception, but maybe we shouldn't accept women being dumb sluts in the first place. The planet is overpopulated, why keep the pieces of crap?

That sounds pretty Nazi and extremist, doesn't it? I'm not being "misogynistic" , though. I think overly promiscuous men are just as vile and worthless.

General world attitudes around sex need to change. A lot. Perhaps back to that old no sex before marriage. Maybe there won't be as many abortions then, if everyone who has sex is married.

Not that old...

People have been having sex since long before marriage started and will be having it long after marriage has ceased to exist.

@jon357
It's still disgusting and animalistic. And the levels are higher today than ever before. Sorry, but when there's no stigma attached to even one night stands, society has degenerated. Of course it leads to unwanted pregnancies and, therefore, abortions or miserable lives.

Marriage doesn't mean you want kids.

People still had sex before marriage even in those times.

Sex? Only if you do it properly.


Isn't there? Are young people not allowed to sow their wild oats?

@Lenka
It's immoral though. Sex isn't a requirement for life. Of course having sex doesn't mean wanting kids, but sex outside of marriage is very risky. And premarital sex wasn't on the same scale.

@jon357
The stigma is only there in more traditional countries. Unfortunately, worldwide the stigma is either reduced or, in the case of the West, not there. And they shouldn't. Humans aren't animals, people can control themselves.

I knew I'd be ripped apart for saying this. My reputation on PF will probably be permanently trashed.

Also, what's the point of abortion arguments? No one wins or agrees. It's pretty pointless to argue over abortion, isn't it?

In what way? I know quite a lot of couples that live together for years without marriage, have kids etc... What I risky?


And yet you came quite strongly into that discussion.


Dance isn't either yet you really enjoy it

Every country is to a degree traditional. And it's no surprise that those which are authoritarian or theocratic are the ones that people want to leave


We are...


Biologically it is, unless we use IVF.

And of course there are very few 95 year old who wish they'd had fewer orgasms.

You're right on one thing though. Abortion discussions online are largely pointless; the pro and the anti are poles apart. The decision about legality rests ultimately with governments. The decision to have one or not rests with any woman who is pregnant and can get one legally or otherwise.

Not true joun, only the self serving sanctimonious believe that they have the right to kill an innocent life which does not make it true or right.

When mortal men try to play God, bad things generally happen.

I can think of lots, in Poland and elsewhere. Some even have "second families" and are very happy.

@jon357 If you don't believe that people have souls then do you consider yourself to be soulless?

@Lenka
You're right on that not being risky. I said that wrong. I meant casual or non committed sex. And yes, I do discuss abortion online. I know I'm doing something pointless. It's really a waste of my time, I won't change anyone's opinion.

And doing ballet isn't a requirement, you're right, but it's hardly in the same category as sex. Ballet is pure art, sex is simply animalistic and disgusting.

@jon357
Oh yes, of course people need to have sex to have children. I meant recreational sex, sorry.
Does everyone else really think promiscuity is OK? I thought what I said would be controversial.

Also fun, healthy and playing important role in human relationship.

Who said that? Read the comment carefully before jumping to conclusions.


What does "promiscuity" even mean in an urban context? People have had affairs since the year dot.

What in the hell does promiscuity in an urban context even mean? Sounds like intellectual pinball.

Anyhow, I take Russianantiputin at her word that she's 16. As the father of a 16 year old girl, I encourage you, russianantiputin, to maintain your sexual purity and pretty much ignore everything jon says on the matter. I'd also encourage you to avoid discussing the topic online all together, it's best to be discussed with your parents and those who know you best and care about your moral development and love you and not risk being influenced by activists. That's my two cents.

@Lenka
Does it, though? Couldn't people live without sex? Love isn't sex
@jon357
Everyone over the age of 13 maximum knows exactly what promiscuity is. How old are you, 6?

Yes.


Why would they?


It isn't but it is quite good part of a relationship. If you are who you say you are maybe one day you will meet someone special, the time will be right and you will find out how good it is. No rush though.

I wonder how many posters here are normal. (Normal = married with kids. For extra credit, with grandkids).
If you never had a child, you are not qualified to speak on any subject - from abortion to guns. So my best advice is to get one - a child, not a gun - or STFU.

I am happily married and a father of two. I know of one other poster here who can say the same about himself and he is also against the monstrosity called "abortion". Having children changes your perspective (on pretty much everything).

I wouldn't be surprised if the staunchest proponents of abortion on demand here were either single or homosexual (or both). I wouldn't be surprised at all. :)

It turns your priority list upside down the way should be. If the choice was between the whole of China or one of mine, China goes. Where is the button...

Also, when you have them, you trust nobody. The problem is in beating this message into their heads without crippling them with cynicism too early.

Sounds like you've never lived in a village.


So what's your definition?

It sure does, and it's metaphysical and instantaneous. As soon as I saw the top of my firstborn's head as she made her way through, everything changed. As Novi said, changed as it should be. It was the same when I got married. It's no longer me, me, me, but them, them, them. And the completely counter-intuitive reality is that change from me to them is accompanied by an unconditional joy-even when they are major pains in the ass.

To me this is really the root of abortion issue: it's the choice of self-giving and radical self-centeredness.


..or inside a pinball machine. :)


I just read this. Are you a theophobe, jon?

Abortion isn't merely a religious issue, it's philosophical and a nature issue. The religious is simply connecting metaphysical to the issue.

We can argue from the anti-abortion/pro-life position without ever bringing theology into it.

You think anyone who doesn't want to live in a theocracy is a 'theophobe', whatever that is?


Yet, as you know, there is a correlation between the degree of legislative freedom and the influence of religious groups in a society. Fortunately in Europe, there are no longer borders and there is therefore choice

It gets even worse as the kids leave for good and your parents are already gone. Then the whole world shrinks even more to just one person - your wife - and nothing really matters anymore except how she is.

Theophobe is a real word, it means a fear of religion and/or God or gods.

No, I don't think not wanting to live in a theocracy is a theophobe. It was a direct question, I'm just curious if you're a theophobe.

Poland is hardly a theocracy.

There is no more or less legislative freedom in the West where religious morality informs legislation, than there is in a purely secular one. All legislation is values-based to one degree or another. So, it's matter of what society values or, at least, what legislators value at the time of passage. In the case of abortion it's a matter of the value placed on a developing child in the womb versus the will of others to end that human life.

It's a straightforward value judgment that has specific causes, meaning however that human life was conceived it objectively remains a human life.

Yet there are those who would gladly make it so. Do you live in Poland?


And one for the pregnant woman to decide about. Which is why they are allowed to terminate a pregnancy.

Hmm...How to argue with THAT??? The suspense is killing me...


I didn't have to wait long for a moronic post.

No, that life exists no matter what she thinks. Yes, she may want to abort it. No, we don't have to help her.

:). I'm good to go, then. Mrs AntV is like winning the lottery-not that there aren't days...God knows there are days (she is a woman afterall :D )

For me, I'll also have my faith and a sacramental life to keep me company. Plus, my daughters have promised me constant visits with grandchildren. The boy the same, barring he doesn't become a priest.

...but you won't.