New cross war in Warsaw

Again, it has come down to people vying for supremacy rather than a meritorious assessment and practicality of having a symbolic cross standing in a strategic position. The cross symbolised the tragedy of the victims and how Polish thoughts were with them. Typical Poland, they turned it into a mud throwing, tit-for-tat affair and didn't sit down and think it through. The day the Poles learn to sit down and seriously discuss an issue as other countries do is the day they positively move forward. Otherwise, it's just a slugfest!

None of the cross defenders want the cross to stay there permanently. It is an interim memorial until a proper one, memorial plaque or other fitting marker honouring the Smolensk victims, can be installed. Bruno Chamberpot (the komora in Komorowski means chamber) apparently wants to obliterate every last trace and vestige of his predecessor.

So Kaczynski in Wawel is not enough for them? Face it they are a bunch of stupid morons blaspheming against the cross, and all this was prompted by that stupid, stupid, bitter Kaczynski.

It's all about maneuvering and that's quite sad. The cross brought people together and now they are going to move it? That strikes me as unfair! However, why move a cross to a church, right? ;)

First sentence of your post is very accurate but I cannot agree with the part I quoted. Religious activists actually could have (and did presumably) caused a lot of damage - but not like hooligans breaking windows and setting cars on fire, but to a totally different scale: Enslaving people's minds (I expect this can be argued a lot), taking unbelievable amounts from governments (so from peoples taxes too) although supposedly declared to live in modesty, responsibility for increasing statistics of AIDS in Africa by forbidding to use condoms, narrowing peoples' views, countles child abuses by priests (20.000 filed in America alone if I remember, not sure here) etc... and we could go on with this long. So I guess it did cause a lot of damage, along with spreading the good message.

We see the hypocrisy emerging. Stephen Fry and Christopher Hitchens exposed the RCC for carrying out some of the most corrupt and damaging actions, in total contravention of the teachings of Jesus. Those who use any religious symbol to justify the bad deeds they perpetrate are sacriligious in the extreme. This church has harmed so many people and many that follow it would be well down in the pecking order of Jesus's chosen people.

Do you think, when Jesus comes back, he ever wants to look at a ..edit.. cross? It's kinda like going up to Jackie Onassis with a rifle pendant on.

That is not the place for public meetings, it is the presidential palace and Poland is a secular country in which politics and religion should not mix. There are more than enough crosses in Poland, they can go some place else it was not meant to be there permanently.

Bill Hicks line :)

Religion and politics do mix here and we see it time and again. They are so inextricably intertwined and the demarcation line is fuzzy.

So tell us why removing a temporary tribute is "obliterating every last trace and vestige" of that old booby Kaczynski? Don't you think there will be other memorials? Do you think they should have already commissioned, designed, approved and cast/carved a large memorial in record time? Or do it properly instead?

Not that you'll bother answering.


Spot on


Also spot on.

By Polonius3's 'logic', the flowers for Princess Diana that were left outside Kensington Palace in the days after her tragic death would still be there, gathering dust.

Dennis Leary actually. Like everything Hicks came out with. To quote Hicks talking about Leary "I have a scoop for you. I stole his act. I camouflaged it with punchlines, and to really throw people off, I did it before he did."

The Polish cross war has spawned some colourful rhetoric not only on PF. 'Enslaving people's minds?' Someone opposed to the Church could well apply that term to medieaval times, but nowadays the Church is playing a amrginal role in the enslavbement catgeory. Today the dominant enslaver (also increasignly in Poladn) are the powers of rampant commericalism, those bombarding us with round-the-clock brainwashing tellign us we were 'born to buy' and should 'shop till we drop', and if we can't afford it then do so on credit. Catchy slogans and seductive ad campaigns makeit possible to force all kinds of cleverly packaged but often useless gadgets, silly fashions and trendy clutter down people's throats without them even realising it. Apart from the all-pervasive moloch of sales promotion, it is the mainly the liberal-leftist mainstream media and entertainamnet industry peddling their supoosedly trendy celebrity lifestyles, recreational drugs, loose living and an anything-goes mentality that is the dominant brain-washer of the Western world today. Not the Catholic or any other church!

Interesting, but how does this relate to the thread?

It may explain why Jesus hasn’t shown up yet. He's up in heaven looking down here with God saying "Idiots, they’re still wearing crosses. F*ck it, I’m not going, dad. No, they totally missed the point. When they start wearing fishes I might show up again, but…"

- No. Medieval discoveries (e.g. in astronomy) were suppressed by the Church. "No way that the Earth revolves around the Sun - it's the Sun and everything revolving around us!" - rings a bell? So don't tell me about it, RCC's views are medieval compared to... contemporary times.


- sins and confessions, vote for this not this, - they tell you what and how to think, so I just called it enslaving one's minds.

@Polonius3:

How old are you, Polonius? 65? 70? You were never young? There currently is an entire new generation growing that simply doesn't care about Churches anymore. Face it, the time when Churches were important is way behind us and even the Churches themselves acknowledge that and try to adjust to this new situation. Everybody does some useless things when he/she is young, but that's why you're young. Trying to impose your old fashioned ideas upon younger generation will only cause you to be ridiculed by the very same generation, who only wants to have fun. Perhaps you didn't have fun when you were young, well, that is not the current generation's fault, and you should never try to forbid them to try and retrieve what's theirs. Some things I do frown upon myself as well, but then again, I was young too and I did some silly stuff too, so who am I to forbid those youngsters to do silly stuff as well? Besides, it seems that the ppl who populate Churches nowadays are on average 70+ in age. Not a very future-minded potential, isn't it?

>^..^<

M-G (live and let live)

- Actually there were some young people there, like a 20-25 y.o. bloke, who said he would willingly give his life for this cross. He even brought his own. There wew plenty of middle -aged or young people too. I say there is a new generation of fanatics also. Fanatism does not die out of natural reasons.

Well, you always will have nutcases. But they are a minority, the vast majority doesn't care about religion or Churches or whatever. They just want to have the latest fashion, get chicks, dudes and all the rest that comes with being young. And imo it's the normal way of being young. If you're 20 and you're instead willing to give your life for a Crucifix, there is sth wrong with you somehow. But that's my opinion.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

Ruthless opportunism has taken over. It was the same after 9/11 in that a whole lot of career nobodies suddenly seeped through the cracks and came out of hibernation. Suddenly we saw a nobody become a war correspondent, author, reporter or speaker overnight. We should give these people no attention at all as they merely seek attention. Bring out the tanks with the water spray, I say. Clear out the trash!

Did he bring a hammer and some nails too?

Yes, Wilson nails!

Let the ceremony begin.....

You mean this ceremony?I'd say: just freaking do it!

with Wilson's nails...

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Yeah, spray them all and get them back to work. Lazy sods!

Nah, don't be so harsh, Just poke'em. With a stick. :-D

Someone asked why the term ‘new’ cross war was used in the heading. Well, the Smolensk cross was not the first. Steelworkers planted a large cross in a field at Nowa Huta, the godless Marxist showplace, because they lacked their own place of worship. After much manoeuvring and tussling the regime caved in and let a church be built. The cross together with pictures of the BVM and JP2 figured prominently in the peaceful Solidarność revolution that ultimately led to the collapse of the Soviet bloc and the end of the cold war. A large floral cross laid out on the pavement of then Victory (now Piłsudski) square was systematically removed by the MO, only the reappear the next day. The commies finally threw a fence up round the vast square saying repairs needed to be carried out. Another cross promptly appeared in the side court of St Ann’s Church (to which incidentally the Smolensk cross was to have been moved). Also in the 1980s teenagers in several Polish schools staged school strikes when headmasters, on orders from the regime, tried to remove crucifixes from classrooms. Maybe subliminally the message of Adam Mickiewicz has been getting through down to the present:

Tylko pod krzyżem, tylko pod tym znakiem
Polska jest Polską, a Polak Polakiem.
(My rough translation: Under the cross, under that sign alone can Poland be Poland and a Pole feel at home.)

What did they do? Stop cheating?

Oh, but he did. According to both camps :)

Noble attempt of common sense, Polonius, but lost in this sea of nonsense, hatred, endorsement of terror, church bashing, moral relativism, spiritual vacuity, unrelenting liberal bias and outright bigotry presented by our heroic secular fundamentalist' PC Brigade .

Over the centuries, the Roman Catholic Church has survived schisms, revolutions, wars, the collapse of empires, plaques, the Borgias, the Reformation, the Enlightenment and the dawning of the Age of Aquarius. What makes you think it'll not survive this silly event, boys?

*For those uncomfortable with such heretical views, can you hear what I'm thinking? It's rather loud, to the point, and it's in English*

I agree with this - you mention times of unity against a regime. Then it was something to keep people together. But now it is working the other way, to which I can only object or be sarcastic to those standing underneath the cross at the president place and "defending" it. This spoils everything the cross stands for (that's what you mention).