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Polish Lithuanian Diplomatic War? At last.


Paulina 9 | 1,448
3 Nov 2010 #241
Really? There are tens of thousands of Vietnamese in Warsaw but I have never seen any information being offered to them in their language.

The Vietnamese are immigrants, they don't have the status of minority in Poland. The status of minority in Poland have those nationalities which lived in what is now Poland over the centuries.

Well done. Now when will speakers English in Poland get the same rights as Poles have the UK?

LOL
Maybe they will get road signs in English when there will be as many English people in Poland as there are Polish people in England? :D

No, I doubt that :)
I think it's silly. Polish immigrants who come to the UK should learn English. You should learn the language of your host country.
Btw, in which Western country besides the UK and Ireland do you have road signs in English? :D According to you in every country where there are some English people there should be road signs in English? :D
z_darius 14 | 3,968
3 Nov 2010 #242
They have the right to use detours but they don't know that they should use it because nobody told them that they don't have the right to use the usual route.

It's not like road signs in Polish are a norm or a trend in UK. That is a very unusual occurrence. So unusual that a newspapers decided to write about it.

What you also failed to mention is that those signs in Polish were actually deemed illegal, so for now Poland has nothing to reciprocate in this respect.

Nice try, but as usual, you like only those itsy-bitsy fragments of reality that help you spit at Poles.
1jola 14 | 1,879
3 Nov 2010 #243
Nice try, but as usual, you like only those itsy-bitsy fragments of reality that help you spit at Poles.

He will now try to entangle you in illogical arguments that will end in Bereza. He will think he has won the argument when you walk away in disgust.
Bzibzioh
3 Nov 2010 #244
The Vietnamese are immigrants, they don't have the status of minority in Poland. The status of minority in Poland have those nationalities which lived in what is now Poland over the centuries.

Oh, don't bother; Harry only used this silly Vietnamese argument because his inane contention that Poland has a problem with using second language got brutally rebutted so boy is sulking.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,771
3 Nov 2010 #245
What you also failed to mention is that those signs in Polish were actually deemed illegal, so for now Poland has nothing to reciprocate in this respect.

Were they?

Well done. Now when will speakers English in Poland get the same rights as Poles have the UK?

I wonder when EU citizens will get their right to access information in their native language?
Bzibzioh
3 Nov 2010 #246
Likely never: it's too expensive to provide and not a priority.
z_darius 14 | 3,968
3 Nov 2010 #247
Were they?

Yes. As per a British paper they were "ILLEGAL" (emphasis theirs).

The Department for Transport said they breach traffic regulations and the council had failed to get permission to put them up.

He will now try to entangle you in illogical arguments that will end in Bereza.

I put my bet on the Zaolzie takeover.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,771
3 Nov 2010 #248
Likely never: it's too expensive to provide and not a priority.

Doesn't matter if it's too expensive to provide - it's a right afforded to all EU citizens to access information in their own language. Given the vast amounts of money poured into Poland by the EU, the least they could do is provide information in my own tounge.

Does Poland provide full access to information in Lithuanian and German?

Yes. As per a British paper they were "ILLEGAL" (emphasis theirs).

Was this the Daily Mail? ;)

Anyway, I see no problem with it - if there was a specific problem with Polish drivers going the wrong way, then why the hell not?
z_darius 14 | 3,968
3 Nov 2010 #249
Was this the Daily Mail? ;)

That was a few papers.

Anyway, I see no problem with it - if there was a specific problem with Polish drivers going the wrong way, then why the hell not?

I don't either. But the point is Harry's misleading post.
smigly wilno
3 Nov 2010 #250
Hey, my father grew up on a farm outside of Wilno. Where's my land? I want it back. HAHAHAHAHA!
Torq 26 | 2,371
3 Nov 2010 #251
I wonder when EU citizens will get their right to access information in their native language?

I like your idea of providing the citizens of every EU country information in their native tongue,
in every other EU country. Imagine this - Slovenian citizens getting all the information they
need from Portuguese governmental offices in Slovenian or Irish speakers from An Ghaeltacht
receiving advice and information from an Estonian government official in fluent Irish Gaelic :)
I can already picture French office clerks learning Danish, and Dutch officials studying the
nuances of Hungarian pronounciation!

Brilliant idea, delphiandomine - simply brilliant :)

the least they could do is provide information in my own tounge

What is your native tongue?
Mr Grunwald 19 | 1,542
3 Nov 2010 #252
At 9 October 1920 general Lucjan Zeligowski occupied the south-east of Lithuania about a third of the country
On 1 October 1938 the Zaolzie area was annexed by Poland

Exactly! Thank you!
Piłsudski "governed" Poland from 1926-1935
If anybody assumes Piłsudski was a dictatorial mass murderer and compare him to A. Hitler or something. Stalin then they should re-think it cause it's inaccurate!
kaznoad - | 30
3 Nov 2010 #253
So? Doesn't matter what it used to be like, all that matters is the here and now. And right now, Vilnius is Lithuanian.

I was not suggesting that Vilnius is Polish. However, there is still a sizeable Polish minority in the city and in some districts Poles actually are still in the majority. In such cases it seems only reasonable to recognise the actual situation. It is not just reasonable, but it is also required according to EU rules. I see no good reason why this should be so difficult to accept when in Poland the German minority has been given similar rights and privilages.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,771
3 Nov 2010 #254
I like your idea of providing the citizens of every EU country information in their native tongue

Well, there's already the obligation to provide information in other EU languages. There's also the obligation to provide a translator in certain circumstances - and no, I do not understand how the hell they find Estonian-Maltese translators ;)

I was not suggesting that Vilnius is Polish.

Would this be like how Poland refuses to allow the registration of RHD cars?

In fact, I think the best solution would be for Lithuanians to attempt to register RHD cars in Poland. When Poland refuses, then both sides are just as bad as each other. Lithuania obviously has gone too far - but equally so, Poland is demanding the registration of names using Polish diatricial marks - which is nonsense. I have my doubts as if Poland could handle Lithuanian letters, either ;)

What is your native tongue?

Scots. Recognised as a minority language by the EU.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163
3 Nov 2010 #255
Maybe you can point me to where it written

3rd May Constitution and one of its executive acts - Zaręczenie obu narodów or something like that.
kaznoad - | 30
3 Nov 2010 #256
Would this be like how Poland refuses to allow the registration of RHD cars?

Well if you what to make such a ridiculous connection then it is clear who is being unreasonable in this case. I fail to understand your problem with the use of unique Polish letters. Poland's EU Commissioner until recently was Danuta Hubner. I can't write the correct spelling here but she used the German "u" or "umlout" in here name. Obviously this never caused the Poles any difficult so why would using Polish letters for Polish names create such a "difficult" problem in Lithuania. Incidently I would expect the Poles to be equally tollerant towards the Lithuanian minority in North Eastern Poland. Frankly speaking I think your position is childish.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,771
3 Nov 2010 #257
I fail to understand your problem with the use of unique Polish letters.

Poland will not use them when registering anyone officially - they'll just use the nearest comparable Latin letter. So - if Poles want to register their names using Polish letters, then they have to allow everyone else to use their letters, too. Can't see that happening, somehow.

I can't write the correct spelling here but she used the German "u" or "umlout" in here name.

What was in her documents? Probably not the umlaut. I've never seen any Polish documents which had the correct usage of foreign letters.

Obviously this never caused the Poles any difficult so why would using Polish letters for Polish names create such a "difficult" problem in Lithuania.

Well, in the UK, you won't catch people using ł, ś, ć, ó, ą, etc in official documents. Even things such as the EEA residency permit and driving licences will be in "plain" Latin letters. Likewise in most of Europe - the unique letters simply aren't recognised.
1jola 14 | 1,879
3 Nov 2010 #258
Likewise in most of Europe - the unique letters simply aren't recognised.

This says that Lithuanian minority in Poland can write their names in Lithuanian on official Polish documents:

Litewscy Polacy domagają się jednak, gwarancji praw w kwestii pisowni nazwisk, takich jakie ma litewska mniejszość w Polsce, która już od kilku lat ma możliwość zapisywania litewskich nazwisk po litewsku w polskich dokumentach.

The Poles have asked to reciprocate. You think this is too much?
kaznoad - | 30
3 Nov 2010 #259
Poland will not use them when registering anyone officially - they'll just use the nearest comparable Latin letter. So - if Poles want to register their names using Polish letters, then they have to allow everyone else to use their letters, too. Can't see that happening, somehow.

If that is the case then so be it. I have no issue with this.

I have never seen her documents. However, I have noticed at every official event (in Poland or elsewhere) her name was always spelt using the German "u"

Well, in the UK, you won't catch people using ł, ś, ć, ó, ą, etc in official documents. Even things such as the EEA residency permit and driving licences will be in "plain" Latin letters. Likewise in most of Europe - the unique letters simply aren't recognised.

.
I agree - not usually in official documents. Nevertheless one reason for this is historical as it is related to the fact that until recently only English letters were available on typewriters in the UK. Foreigners in the UK commonly use their own spellings for most purposes and this does not cause either insult or any problem. For instance many French and Spanish names in the UK continue to be spelt with their unique linguistic letters. In fact the use of the female version of Polish names (i.e. ending in "ska") is increasingly common also in the UK, even if most English people do not understand its significance.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,771
3 Nov 2010 #260
If that is the case then so be it. I have no issue with this.

It's the most sensible solution on both sides. But - as far as I gather - Poles are demanding that they get to use the Polish characters in Lithuania. It's fine for things such as bus signs/street names, but it's unrealistic to expect the Lithuanians to be able to produce them in official documents.

However, I have noticed at every official event (in Poland or elsewhere) her name was always spelt using the German "u"

Yep, it's no issue to use it - just bureaucracy prevents people from using them. For what it's worth, I see no reason why EU countries can't use the letters - it's not difficult to type alt+code!

This says that Lithuanian minority in Poland can write their names in Lithuanian on official Polish documents:

Can they use Lithuanian letters, or are they simply allowed to spell their names the "Lithuanian" way (without Lithuanian characters)?
1jola 14 | 1,879
3 Nov 2010 #261
It means with Lithuanian characters. BTW, private bus lines are fined for puting up Polish signs under the Lithuanian ones.

I think they are making a serious mistake. Like Ukraine, they will be absorbed into the Russian camp. Maybe they miss it.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,771
3 Nov 2010 #262
It means with Lithuanian characters. BTW, private bus lines are fined for puting up Polish signs under the Lithuanian ones.

Doesn't seem to suggest one way or another that Lithuanian characters are allowed, only that the spelling can be Lithuanian. Still, instead of arguing about it, I'll call the relevant office and ask them directly.

Is it allowed to put up foreign names on Polish buses?
Marek11111 9 | 816
4 Nov 2010 #263
Yes Ironside take over an area or a country and have a vote and I am sure if everyone voted the to stay with Lithuania the results would say we want to be part of Poland. Remember the 3 YES votes in Poland after ww2.

Mr Grunwald
Exactly! Thank you!
Piłsudski "governed" Poland from 1926-1935
If anybody assumes Piłsudski was a dictatorial mass murderer and compare him to A. Hitler or something. Stalin then they should re-think it cause it's inaccurate!

Yes start grabbing straws that all you have, your statement is not honest and you know it, you lost.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,771
4 Nov 2010 #264
Remember the 3 YES votes in Poland after ww2.

Er, wasn't 3xTAK about as rigged as it gets?
Marek11111 9 | 816
4 Nov 2010 #265
Who said
I do not have to worry about people who cast the votes just about the people who count the votes
Nathan 18 | 1,363
4 Nov 2010 #266
Well, again Polish fantasy land. You just cannot let rest your wild imaginations. Nothing new on a Polish side. I even found "136 methods of torture" created by Polish kids to stir the sh*t in the adult Polish hearts. Well, it is your past-time. Let it be.

To much bullcrap here.I say "Na Wilno!"Lets get back what's our.

Learn English, son, and then you may take a tourist trip to Vilnius.

acting against the spirit of Hrubieszów Agreement.

I am used to letters, not spirit :))

and wouldn't take side
of any country acting against Ukraine

Hmmm. Nice to hear :) Me neither. I am trying to be a mediator and both Poland and Lithuania need one. And who would be a better one than Nathan ;)

against an enemy army and join it in an common country, I doubt it would be much hostility

What common country? That common country seized to exist 200 years before and Lithuanians didn't want to go to the "sweet" past in that Union. Do you blame them?

If I remember correct it was the National Democrats in power at that time and I despise them, I wouldn't behave like THAT.

You said you would behave harsher with Lithuanians than Pilsudski. I don't see the difference in the approach here.

NO they were commonwealthers which believed in a united country fighting an common enemy

Lithuanians didn't seem to appreciate it. So why don't leave them alone? But again following the betrayal of Ukrainians by Polish government in the Riga agreement, I am not suprised at all by the artificially created mutiny and betrayal of Suwalki agreement with Lithuanians. It is not the way to run business with people you want on your side. Wouldn't you agree, Mr Grunwald?

Give me some sources then I can ask BB and compare if you want.
(He loves Bismarck so much I guess he knows a bit about him)

I've read Erick Eyck's "Bismarck and the German empire" recently. But, of course, Bismarck is incomparable. Pilsudski, maybe, wanted to try to run political manipulations that the Chancellor in his time did, but he just couldn't realize that Bismarck was uniting Germany and Pilsudski wanted to Polonize multiple non-Polish lands and people. But again Pilsudski had his Kulturkampf in Ukraine by banning schools, destroying churches etc. discussed already in some other topic. Pilsudski had even bigger moustache than Bismarck and when you look at a picture of Otto (in uniform) and Joseph (when he is with an eagle at his back), you barely can tell the difference. Quite some in common :)

P.S. Since Poland wanted so much to be a big happy family with Lithuanians (even though, they didn't), why Poland didn't turn to its best of the best friend - Hungary - with which as it said often by Polish people "Hungary and Poland - two brother-pals when it comes to war or drink"? Interesting. I hope Torq who has some biased expertise not only in the Ukrainian army matters might shed some insight on this valuable observation.
Mr Grunwald 19 | 1,542
4 Nov 2010 #267
Yes start grabbing straws that all you have, your statement is not honest and you know it, you lost.

WTF?! Like you know Piłsudski!

Do you blame them?

I do

You said you would behave harsher with Lithuanians than Pilsudski. I don't see the difference in the approach here.

One thing is to set them at place other is stabbing them in their back

Wouldn't you agree, Mr Grunwald?

Yes I agree that's why I hate the national democrats they ruined EVERYTHING
They wanted to create Poland into a nation-state trying to get where ever they could see Poles or somebody who talked Polish. GAAWD I hate them

Pilsudski wanted to Polonize multiple non-Polish lands and people.

He wanted to restore the commonwealth... The ones wanting to Polonize everyone was his men or nationa democrats... As they started it already it was done and they couldn't turn back. Piłsudski tried to negotiate with Ukrainian insurgents but failed as the Ukrainians had been wounded by the national democrats. Later on it was all about showing power mostly.

Pilsudski had his Kulturkampf in Ukraine by banning schools, destroying churches etc.

Kulturkampf?!
The churches were destroyed mostly because of retaliation not because of some brand idea of Polonization... Aren't you mixing two things now?

(even though, they didn't)

The National Democrats that's right

why Poland didn't turn to its best of the best friend - Hungary

Last time I checked they did but there was a country between them called Czechoslovakia which was quite hostile towards both countries.

One of Hungary's main goals was to restore a common border with Poland which happened during 1938-1939

At least I hope people get some water over their heads and talk... Instead of waving fists at each other
grubas 12 | 1,391
4 Nov 2010 #268
It would be nice just to drive into Lithuania and explain them minority rights in Wilno.With well prepared plan we could control the whole country within 24 hours.They have nothing,no air force whatsoever,no tanks and only 230 old APC's (mainly American M113).With support of Polish minority it would be piece of cake.Political support from Russia would be needed though(we could give them support in Latvia's case) and their S 400's.
Torq 26 | 2,371
4 Nov 2010 #269
Well, again Polish fantasy land.

Please, don't denigrate the terrible wartime memories of eye-witnesses, those who survived
the slaughter and don't smear the reputation of people who took years of their lives to
investigate and describe the bestiality, so future generations would know their history,
by suggesting that they all lied. Don't go this way, Nathan.

The sooner you stop living in denial and accept the fact that some of your heroes (not all of
them, of course) acted like rabid animals, the better.

I am trying to be a mediator

No you're not :) You're taking Lithuanian side - 100%. Is that what you call "mediating" in Ukrainie? :)

And who would be a better one than Nathan ;)

Anyone really, seeing as you're not able to come to terms with your own history.

Since Poland wanted so much to be a big happy family with Lithuanians (even though, they didn't), why Poland didn't turn to its best of the best friend - Hungary - with which as it said often by Polish people "Hungary and Poland - two brother-pals when it comes to war or drink"?

I'm afraid you will have to explain what you meant with this question:
"If Poland wanted to be family with Lithuanians then why Poland didn't turn to Hungary?"
sounds nonsensically to me.

Torq who has some biased expertise not only in the Ukrainian army matters

I don't recall ever writing anything about Ukrainian army on this forum (correct me if I'm
wrong, maybe my memory fails me.) I wrote a couple of times about rabid animals, pretending
to be Ukrainian freedom fighters, but never about Ukrainian army (I'm not very interested
in Ukrainian military affairs, to be honest. I hope you will do OK and join NATO one day.)
aphrodisiac 11 | 2,444
4 Nov 2010 #270
Anyone really, seeing as you're not able to come to terms with your own history.

yah, you explain his history to him since he is not able to grasp it lol - you are such a dork Torq- not only patronizing but also condescending, and OFF topic:)


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