Polish Lithuanian Diplomatic War? At last.

I see that to you Poland is not a civilised democratic state. Luckily those of us who actually live here know that you're wrong.

Yup, just try and register a female baby born to Poles with a name not ending in "a". We'll see how far you get ;)

Did someone else post the economist article on polish/lithuanian ******** already?


economist/blogs/easternapproaches/2010/10/polish-lithuanian_theatre_absurd


*nods*

No, Grunwald, it was just a little oxymoron from me: "95% tolerant Catholics speaking one language". It might indicate into the past where "tolerance" so much praised resulted in a homogenic nation. Interesting.


Torq, what are you talking about? Poland shifted these borders itself to the East in 1920s when it occupied Lithuania and not only. So less than 25 years difference is so much significant when we talk about both countries looking into the past? I don't think so.


I am not trying to prove anything. I present an argument from the Lithuanian point of view, that's all.


Exactly, Poland like many other nations deal with the past even today, and Lithuania is not an exception. I am not a lawyer, but what I find very innervating is when just recently barbaric countries who by barbarism made their countries almost homogeneous and more stable, demand others to be extra-polite on issues of minorities which they a few decades ago were trampling like dust. Nobody says that Lithuania should be following in the same steps that Poland did in the past, but Poland should realize that the issue is not simple. That's my point.


Well, I know about Polish ardent love, respect and limitless admiration of whatever is linked to Germany. And there are many good reasons for that, I don't argue. You bow and tremble in awe from western wind, be it even a fart whiff accidentally erupted from a western bowel, but even a scent of magnolia from the east will give you a vomiting feeling of disgust and hatred. So, "most notably the German one" is not a bit of surprise to me, Torque. But again you follow the same path of reasoning. Poland woke up 95% "tolerant Catholic" one language speaking majority which 50 years before was trying to suck out national identity from Lithuania by forced Polonization. They didn't have chance to wake up with 95% of tolerance like you. It is difficult issue and has to be dealt with understanding and patience.


It was the only policy practiced by Poland in the past centuries - sway the d*ck in the air - as a result all Eastern European region including Poland ended up with those up their arsenals. Thank you very much, Poland, thank you very much.


Yes, it is snowing here too.

I thought you said you were "mediating" :)


Sorry, but that's just gibberish.


Just out of curiosity - why do you keep twisting my nickname? Does "torque" mean anything
derogatory in Ukrainian? Not that I care, it's just interesting :)


There was no forced Polonization. Wilno was about 60% Polish anyway, and we only occupied
a part of their territory with Polish majority. Poland never tried to "suck out identity" from
Lithuanians - they Polonized willfully, having recognized our superiority in all possible areas
of human activity, and we welcomed them in our big Polish family (just as we would have
welcomed Ukrainians, if the glorious Najjaśniejsza Rzeczpospolita hadn't fallen from the blows
of three tyrants. We weren't given enough time, unfortunately.)

A very interesting read BB, thanks. Especially one comment by Astoria stands out:

Astoria wrote: Oct 30th 2010 8:10 GMT .Why not start with the simplest things to do?

Lithuania:

1. Stop imposing fines for using Polish in the streets. It's just absurd for a country in the EU to penalize its citizens and businesses for using one of the official languages of the Union. The State Commission of the Lithuanian Language picks on Polish only, not on English, Russian or any other language. The Commission is under direct supervision of the Seimas, which can easily freeze the practice.

economist/blogs/easternapproaches/2010/10/polish-lithuanian_theatre_absurd

The right to freely use one's language is a fundamental right. If one is being
persecuted for using it and being forbidden to use it, then it is NOT a minor problem.


There, there - if our widdle brothers don't wish for us to call them that, then we won't.
No, no, no, - we won't say that our tiny-winy Litwini are our babbys and sissys.
We won't be big, bad babbys for our dear neighbouries. We are icky-icky and they
are nicy-nicy. There, there.


HEAR, HEAR!

Russians would be delighted to buy it - I say SELL!

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baby_talk#Vocabulary

:)

A really good post, I agree with most of it* but look at the points in case of Lithuania - they mostly include legal/government related issues, things which could be quickly changed (and definately should be changed according to legal documents Lithuanian government signed) and these problems haven't been solved only because of bad will of Lithuanian authorities... In case of Poland these are mostly things like "be more sensitive", "stop patronizing" etc. Well, maybe that is what should happen but It's like comparing a guy, who is breaking the law with a guy, who is lacking good manners. 2 different things.

* the only part which I find really out of place is Karta Polaka argument, The Karta thing was created for people from Ukraine, Kazakhstan etc. Poles from Lithuania can live and work in Poland without It, so I am not surprised that they aren't very interested in it, they simply don't need It.

Looks like problem is more complicated then I thought. Here is video from... who cares. Anyway it's kind of interesting for Poles.



hm Polish-Lithuanian interwar.

Why ? What do you find so interesting there ?

Then why has Poland introduced laws which forbid the registration of names it deems as being non Polish? An English friend of mine with a Polish wife and living in the country tried to register their newly born baby with a purely English (well Welsh actually) Christian name. The registration was refused. In the end not to be undone he went with his wife and registered the birth in the UK. They then presented the "de-facto" name to the Poles. Does this sound like civilised behaviour on the part of the Poles?

No it doesn't, and is probably due to the stupidity of the registrar (probably a PiShead). If one parent is foreign, you can choose whatever name you like. If both parents are Polish, it takes a bit of palm-greasing to register a name not on the list.

Definitely not.
But we do know how to fight with Lithuanian:


That's why I like Polish history :-)


It's sound like PO authorities they should bribe them. PO members love other's money.

Why should there be an issue at all? I remember when the law was introduced about 10 years ago. It was dreamt up by ultra nationalists (and by now way does that exclude the left in Polish politics) as a reaction to their impression of increasing use of English in the country for names and business etc. The fact is that it is simply an unacceptable practice.

Yes, and modelled on the hated Portugese law. Probably against human rights legislation, and only enforced because Polish registrars derive a proportion of their income from bribes.

it's a police state big time, your ignorance and superficial knowledge is obnoxiously annoying


what TF are you talking about ? Demographic majority means nothing to you ?you plastic Ukrainian ?Stop whining that about so called occupation of Ukraine by Poles or in your a little dream world, Poles are always wrong and a little dicked fukkers like yourself are right ?

You have your little world made of fairy tales and dreams about Ukrainian history but in fact you know **** about it, boy, and one day an ugly truth will kick you in the face, then remember my words!


I don;t give a damn whose steps Naziuania is following but they should obey EU rules they signed, diplomatic rules of repository regarding the minority rights! They should remember that without NATO and EU they are a very small fry, nobody really give a **** about, so what they are thinking - I bet no thinking at all, except some retards who live in the 1930s and should be kick in their retarded backside to know their place!

Unfortunately nobody in EU care about it as long as Polish government constitute from PO ********* who don't give a damn about interest of polish minority because nobody is gone bribe those fukkers to do something - they should swing !


you are a stubborn little pup aren't you, and stupid at that, I grand you this !

Before mediating you have to have at least two points of view to mediate, don't you? ;)


Pardon, Torq, I really haven't noticed. No offense. I, probably, got it mixed with the same sounding "torque" (physics term) as you mentioned.



;)))) I laughed my pants off. You killed me, Torq ;)


Within a country a regional majority should have no right to invite occupational forces.


I haven't read the article, but the main points by Flagless Pole taken from it is something to consider by both countries, Ironside, no doubt. You are getting a bit angry - it is not good for your heart. Save it for me, please, I desperately need something to pluck the feathers out from time to time :)

Thanks for the update BB(: even if it is going to pour some extra fuel to the fire.

I was talking about the preceding centuries before 1920. And yes many Poles to admire the Germans- did you see how well Westrwelle and Sikorski get along.

Quite simply a brilliant summation. Poland should do all it can and not let sentimentality get in the way, and expose this poor man's fascist state of Lithuania for what it truly is.

For the love of god this argument is this going on, Europe has alot bigger problems than some ethnic minority language dispute, Islamisation of Europe, don't fight each other.

youtube.com/watch?v=X9r_NQiZEH4

They can come! They shall perish! What ever they want they won't gain our land!

That's not strictly speaking true. The problem is that many registrars take the view (which is to a certain extent supported by Polish law) that while any name can be used, it must conform with Polish grammatical rules, i.e. girl's names must end with the letter 'a'. I know of one American who was refused 'permission' to call his daughter 'Lauren' and told it had to be either 'Laura' or 'Laurena' (and that they were doing him a real favour by offering him the choice of 'Laurena'). He ended up closing his business in Poland and moving operations to the Czech republic.

And of course all of Warsaw's 30,000+ speakers of tiếng Việt are most welcome to use the Chữ Quốc Ngữ when filling in their applications for ID cards etc. But for some reason all those document always come back in Polish. As is often the case, we're supposed to accept one rule for Poles and another rule for everybody else.

nobody in polish government give a damn about it, so yes, officially the problem of Poles in Lithuania are very minor - check !


what sentiments? They are a small fry and they do not honor their obligations!
check


yeah ! lets the Russians have it, Lithueania is a big tit, now!
to be done!


no matter how you treat it, there is a very real issue of human right abuse - who says something different ? Harry and delpi ?phew!

check!

So you agree that Poland is abusing the human rights of tens of thousands of people in Warsaw alone by not letting them use their language for writing their names? Interesting.

people should have the right to write they name in the way they like it, if they have a problems because of it, thats their problem and choice!

You Harry simply should discus the topic, not constantly deflecting it, if something bugs you so much, make a thread about it, but no, pathetic !

Tens of thousands of people in Poland are denied that right.


The actions of Poland with regard to some of its minorities are the same as the actions of Lithuania towards Poles in Lithuania. Perhaps people might be less likely to view Poland's stance as hypocritical if Poland gave minorities in Poland the same rights as it wants to insist Poles have in other countries?

Did you read the thread posts ? Poland give minorities the same rights, and definitely gives the said right to Lithuanian minority in Poland! So, what your point ? Guess you have no point !

Some minorities. The tens of thousands of Vietnamese in Warsaw are not allowed to use Chữ Quốc Ngữ when writing their tiếng Việt names: they are forced to use only the Polish alphabet.


Poland should put its own house in order before attempting to tell others what to do.

they are not minorities, they are immigrants, and yes let them write their names as they want - its their problem !However is a very small issue and off topic !

Lithuanian minority in Poland have said rights and the same rights should be granted to Polish minority in Lithuania - simple, and that way its works !


As a general rule it could be applied to every country or individual!
However, in the case presented above the issue and solution is simple, either follow the reciprocity right and EU regulation or await the punishment !

I guess that every issue or subject discussed on PF you intensionally deflecting into discussion about Poland faults ! Wait - hijacking the thread - against the rules :)