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Polish Lithuanian Diplomatic War? At last.


PolishTraitor - | 20
6 Nov 2010 #331
In a civilised democratic state everyone is free to legally change his/her name according to personal preference.

I see that to you Poland is not a civilised democratic state. Luckily those of us who actually live here know that you're wrong.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,771
6 Nov 2010 #332
I see that to you Poland is not a civilised democratic state.

Yup, just try and register a female baby born to Poles with a name not ending in "a". We'll see how far you get ;)
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,877
6 Nov 2010 #333
Did someone else post the economist article on polish/lithuanian ******** already?

Poland, Lithuania, spiralling downwards

economist/blogs/easternapproaches/2010/10/polish-lithuanian_theatre_absurd

POLAND'S row with Lithuania rivals the Macedonian-Greek "name" row for intensity of emotion and bafflingness to outsiders. A recent blog post on this has attracted more than 200 comments, which are worth reading if only to see the gulf between the two sides. In short, Poland thinks that it has done a great deal for Lithuania in recent years, and its good will has been met with rebuffs and duplicity, particularly in the treatment of the Polish minority there, and also in the obstacles created for the country's biggest foreign investor, PKN Orlen, which owns the loss-making Mažeikiai oil refinery.

*nods*
Nathan 18 | 1,363
6 Nov 2010 #334
Do I sense jealousy?

No, Grunwald, it was just a little oxymoron from me: "95% tolerant Catholics speaking one language". It might indicate into the past where "tolerance" so much praised resulted in a homogenic nation. Interesting.

We were talking about the invasion of Lithuania by Poland almost a century ago and you're bringing up internal Polish government regulations regarding post-WW2 borders' shift.

Torq, what are you talking about? Poland shifted these borders itself to the East in 1920s when it occupied Lithuania and not only. So less than 25 years difference is so much significant when we talk about both countries looking into the past? I don't think so.

I can understand that you're desperate to prove your point

I am not trying to prove anything. I present an argument from the Lithuanian point of view, that's all.

Well, I guess those
people lost their property, houses and land, because of Poland's borders shift and I'd say
it's a decent gesture by Polish government to pay partial reparations to them.

Exactly, Poland like many other nations deal with the past even today, and Lithuania is not an exception. I am not a lawyer, but what I find very innervating is when just recently barbaric countries who by barbarism made their countries almost homogeneous and more stable, demand others to be extra-polite on issues of minorities which they a few decades ago were trampling like dust. Nobody says that Lithuania should be following in the same steps that Poland did in the past, but Poland should realize that the issue is not simple. That's my point.

I am very glad that one of the first things that Poland did after regaining our
independence in 1989 was sorting out the rights and privileges of our minorities
(most notably the German one.)

Well, I know about Polish ardent love, respect and limitless admiration of whatever is linked to Germany. And there are many good reasons for that, I don't argue. You bow and tremble in awe from western wind, be it even a fart whiff accidentally erupted from a western bowel, but even a scent of magnolia from the east will give you a vomiting feeling of disgust and hatred. So, "most notably the German one" is not a bit of surprise to me, Torque. But again you follow the same path of reasoning. Poland woke up 95% "tolerant Catholic" one language speaking majority which 50 years before was trying to suck out national identity from Lithuania by forced Polonization. They didn't have chance to wake up with 95% of tolerance like you. It is difficult issue and has to be dealt with understanding and patience.

to make Lithuanians realize that if they're
trying to f**k Poland, they may wake up with a big hard d**k up their arse themselves :)*

It was the only policy practiced by Poland in the past centuries - sway the d*ck in the air - as a result all Eastern European region including Poland ended up with those up their arsenals. Thank you very much, Poland, thank you very much.

Cut the crap, they willingly chose to be Polonised, and they were forcefully Russofied1

Yes, it is snowing here too.
Torq 26 | 2,371
6 Nov 2010 #335
I present an argument from the Lithuanian point of view, that's all.

I thought you said you were "mediating" :)

Well, I know about Polish ardent love, respect and limitless admiration of whatever is linked to Germany.

Sorry, but that's just gibberish.

Torque

Just out of curiosity - why do you keep twisting my nickname? Does "torque" mean anything
derogatory in Ukrainian? Not that I care, it's just interesting :)

50 years before was trying to suck out national identity from Lithuania by forced Polonization

There was no forced Polonization. Wilno was about 60% Polish anyway, and we only occupied
a part of their territory with Polish majority. Poland never tried to "suck out identity" from
Lithuanians - they Polonized willfully, having recognized our superiority in all possible areas
of human activity, and we welcomed them in our big Polish family (just as we would have
welcomed Ukrainians, if the glorious Najjaśniejsza Rzeczpospolita hadn't fallen from the blows
of three tyrants. We weren't given enough time, unfortunately.)
FlaglessPole 4 | 669
6 Nov 2010 #336
Did someone else post the economist article on polish/lithuanian ******** already?

A very interesting read BB, thanks. Especially one comment by Astoria stands out:

Astoria wrote: Oct 30th 2010 8:10 GMT .Why not start with the simplest things to do?

Lithuania:

1. Stop imposing fines for using Polish in the streets. It's just absurd for a country in the EU to penalize its citizens and businesses for using one of the official languages of the Union. The State Commission of the Lithuanian Language picks on Polish only, not on English, Russian or any other language. The Commission is under direct supervision of the Seimas, which can easily freeze the practice.

economist/blogs/easternapproaches/2010/10/polish-lithuanian_theatre_absurd
Torq 26 | 2,371
6 Nov 2010 #337
The right to freely use one's language is a fundamental right. If one is being
persecuted for using it and being forbidden to use it, then it is NOT a minor problem.

Lithuanians are not your brothers and sisters from the time of the Commonwealth. Treat them just like you would anybody else. What they seem to resent the most is what they perceive as your patronizing attitude. They don't want to be your brothers and sisters period - face it.

There, there - if our widdle brothers don't wish for us to call them that, then we won't.
No, no, no, - we won't say that our tiny-winy Litwini are our babbys and sissys.
We won't be big, bad babbys for our dear neighbouries. We are icky-icky and they
are nicy-nicy. There, there.

Get rid of Orlen Lietuva. It was a mistake to buy it

HEAR, HEAR!

Russians would be delighted to buy it - I say SELL!
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,877
6 Nov 2010 #338
There, there.

*get's dictionary to look up "widdle brothers"*
Torq 26 | 2,371
6 Nov 2010 #339
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baby_talk#Vocabulary

:)
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163
6 Nov 2010 #340
1. Stop imposing fines for using Polish in the streets.

A really good post, I agree with most of it* but look at the points in case of Lithuania - they mostly include legal/government related issues, things which could be quickly changed (and definately should be changed according to legal documents Lithuanian government signed) and these problems haven't been solved only because of bad will of Lithuanian authorities... In case of Poland these are mostly things like "be more sensitive", "stop patronizing" etc. Well, maybe that is what should happen but It's like comparing a guy, who is breaking the law with a guy, who is lacking good manners. 2 different things.

* the only part which I find really out of place is Karta Polaka argument, The Karta thing was created for people from Ukraine, Kazakhstan etc. Poles from Lithuania can live and work in Poland without It, so I am not surprised that they aren't very interested in it, they simply don't need It.
ender 5 | 398
6 Nov 2010 #341
Looks like problem is more complicated then I thought. Here is video from... who cares. Anyway it's kind of interesting for Poles.



hm Polish-Lithuanian interwar.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163
6 Nov 2010 #342
Looks like problem is more complicated then I thought.

Why ? What do you find so interesting there ?
kaznoad - | 30
6 Nov 2010 #343
Then why has Poland introduced laws which forbid the registration of names it deems as being non Polish? An English friend of mine with a Polish wife and living in the country tried to register their newly born baby with a purely English (well Welsh actually) Christian name. The registration was refused. In the end not to be undone he went with his wife and registered the birth in the UK. They then presented the "de-facto" name to the Poles. Does this sound like civilised behaviour on the part of the Poles?
jonni 16 | 2,485
6 Nov 2010 #344
No it doesn't, and is probably due to the stupidity of the registrar (probably a PiShead). If one parent is foreign, you can choose whatever name you like. If both parents are Polish, it takes a bit of palm-greasing to register a name not on the list.
ender 5 | 398
6 Nov 2010 #345
Does this sound like civilised behaviour on the part of the Poles?

Definitely not.
But we do know how to fight with Lithuanian:

The Lithuanian Nazi forces lost at least 50 men, with 60 more wounded and more than 300 taken prisoner of war. After the battle, all Lithuanian prisoners of war were disarmed and released with only their long johns and helmets on. The Lithuanian officers were given letters from the AK commander, Aleksander Krzyżanowski, addressed to the general Povilas Plechavièius, appealing for a stop to Lithuanian-Nazi German collaboration

That's why I like Polish history :-)

stupidity of the registrar

It's sound like PO authorities they should bribe them. PO members love other's money.
kaznoad - | 30
6 Nov 2010 #346
Why should there be an issue at all? I remember when the law was introduced about 10 years ago. It was dreamt up by ultra nationalists (and by now way does that exclude the left in Polish politics) as a reaction to their impression of increasing use of English in the country for names and business etc. The fact is that it is simply an unacceptable practice.
jonni 16 | 2,485
6 Nov 2010 #347
Yes, and modelled on the hated Portugese law. Probably against human rights legislation, and only enforced because Polish registrars derive a proportion of their income from bribes.
Ironside 48 | 9,899
7 Nov 2010 #348
Last time I checked, the Lithuanian democracy was working quite well. Certainly, the "tyranny of the majority" comes into play here, but it's still democratic.

it's a police state big time, your ignorance and superficial knowledge is obnoxiously annoying

what are you talking about? Poland shifted these borders itself to the East in 1920s when it occupied Lithuania and not only

what TF are you talking about ? Demographic majority means nothing to you ?you plastic Ukrainian ?Stop whining that about so called occupation of Ukraine by Poles or in your a little dream world, Poles are always wrong and a little dicked fukkers like yourself are right ?

You have your little world made of fairy tales and dreams about Ukrainian history but in fact you know **** about it, boy, and one day an ugly truth will kick you in the face, then remember my words!

Nobody says that Lithuania should be following in the same steps that Poland di

I don;t give a damn whose steps Naziuania is following but they should obey EU rules they signed, diplomatic rules of repository regarding the minority rights! They should remember that without NATO and EU they are a very small fry, nobody really give a **** about, so what they are thinking - I bet no thinking at all, except some retards who live in the 1930s and should be kick in their retarded backside to know their place!

Unfortunately nobody in EU care about it as long as Polish government constitute from PO ********* who don't give a damn about interest of polish minority because nobody is gone bribe those fukkers to do something - they should swing !

was trying to suck out national identity from Lithuania by forced Polonization.

you are a stubborn little pup aren't you, and stupid at that, I grand you this !
Nathan 18 | 1,363
7 Nov 2010 #349
Before mediating you have to have at least two points of view to mediate, don't you? ;)

Just out of curiosity - why do you keep twisting my nickname? Does "torque" mean anything derogatory in Ukrainian? Not that I care, it's just interesting :)

Pardon, Torq, I really haven't noticed. No offense. I, probably, got it mixed with the same sounding "torque" (physics term) as you mentioned.

Lithuanians - they Polonized willfully, having recognized our superiority in all possible areas of human activity, and we welcomed them in our big Polish family (just as we would have welcomed Ukrainians, if the glorious Najjaśniejsza Rzeczpospolita hadn't fallen from the blows of three tyrants. We weren't given enough time, unfortunately.)

Sorry, but that's just gibberish.

;)))) I laughed my pants off. You killed me, Torq ;)

Demographic majority means nothing to you ?

Within a country a regional majority should have no right to invite occupational forces.

they should obey EU rules

I haven't read the article, but the main points by Flagless Pole taken from it is something to consider by both countries, Ironside, no doubt. You are getting a bit angry - it is not good for your heart. Save it for me, please, I desperately need something to pluck the feathers out from time to time :)
hague1cmaeron 14 | 1,377
7 Nov 2010 #350
POLAND'S row with Lithuania rivals the Macedonian-Greek "name" row for intensity of emotion and bafflingness to outsiders.

Thanks for the update BB(: even if it is going to pour some extra fuel to the fire.

I was talking about the preceding centuries before 1920. And yes many Poles to admire the Germans- did you see how well Westrwelle and Sikorski get along.

Quite simply a brilliant summation. Poland should do all it can and not let sentimentality get in the way, and expose this poor man's fascist state of Lithuania for what it truly is.
PennBoy 76 | 2,437
7 Nov 2010 #351
For the love of god this argument is this going on, Europe has alot bigger problems than some ethnic minority language dispute, Islamisation of Europe, don't fight each other.

youtube.com/watch?v=X9r_NQiZEH4
Mr Grunwald 19 | 1,542
7 Nov 2010 #352
Islamisation of Europe, don't fight each other.

They can come! They shall perish! What ever they want they won't gain our land!
PolishTraitor - | 20
7 Nov 2010 #353
If one parent is foreign, you can choose whatever name you like.

That's not strictly speaking true. The problem is that many registrars take the view (which is to a certain extent supported by Polish law) that while any name can be used, it must conform with Polish grammatical rules, i.e. girl's names must end with the letter 'a'. I know of one American who was refused 'permission' to call his daughter 'Lauren' and told it had to be either 'Laura' or 'Laurena' (and that they were doing him a real favour by offering him the choice of 'Laurena'). He ended up closing his business in Poland and moving operations to the Czech republic.

And of course all of Warsaw's 30,000+ speakers of tiếng Việt are most welcome to use the Chữ Quốc Ngữ when filling in their applications for ID cards etc. But for some reason all those document always come back in Polish. As is often the case, we're supposed to accept one rule for Poles and another rule for everybody else.
Ironside 48 | 9,899
7 Nov 2010 #354
nobody in polish government give a damn about it, so yes, officially the problem of Poles in Lithuania are very minor - check !

Get rid of sentimentality in politics. Lithuanians are not your brothers and sisters from the time of the Commonwealth. Treat them just like you would anybody else.

what sentiments? They are a small fry and they do not honor their obligations!
check

Get rid of Orlen Lietuva. It was a mistake t

yeah ! lets the Russians have it, Lithueania is a big tit, now!
to be done!

Treat the rights of Poles in Lithuania as human rights issues, not as Polish tribal issues.

no matter how you treat it, there is a very real issue of human right abuse - who says something different ? Harry and delpi ?phew!

check!
PolishTraitor - | 20
7 Nov 2010 #355
no matter how you treat it, there is a very real issue of human right abuse

So you agree that Poland is abusing the human rights of tens of thousands of people in Warsaw alone by not letting them use their language for writing their names? Interesting.
Ironside 48 | 9,899
7 Nov 2010 #356
Interesting.

people should have the right to write they name in the way they like it, if they have a problems because of it, thats their problem and choice!

You Harry simply should discus the topic, not constantly deflecting it, if something bugs you so much, make a thread about it, but no, pathetic !
PolishTraitor - | 20
7 Nov 2010 #357
people should have the right to write they name in the way they like it, if they have a problems because of it, thats their problem and choice!

Tens of thousands of people in Poland are denied that right.

You Harry simply should discus the topic, not constantly deflecting it, if something bugs you so much, make a thread about it, but no, pathetic !

The actions of Poland with regard to some of its minorities are the same as the actions of Lithuania towards Poles in Lithuania. Perhaps people might be less likely to view Poland's stance as hypocritical if Poland gave minorities in Poland the same rights as it wants to insist Poles have in other countries?
Ironside 48 | 9,899
7 Nov 2010 #358
Did you read the thread posts ? Poland give minorities the same rights, and definitely gives the said right to Lithuanian minority in Poland! So, what your point ? Guess you have no point !
PolishTraitor - | 20
7 Nov 2010 #359
Poland give minorities the same rights

Some minorities. The tens of thousands of Vietnamese in Warsaw are not allowed to use Chữ Quốc Ngữ when writing their tiếng Việt names: they are forced to use only the Polish alphabet.

So, what your point ?

Poland should put its own house in order before attempting to tell others what to do.
Ironside 48 | 9,899
7 Nov 2010 #360
Some minorities. The tens of thousands of Vietnamese in Warsaw are not allowed to use Chữ Quốc Ngữ when writing their tiếng Việt names: they are forced to u

they are not minorities, they are immigrants, and yes let them write their names as they want - its their problem !However is a very small issue and off topic !

Lithuanian minority in Poland have said rights and the same rights should be granted to Polish minority in Lithuania - simple, and that way its works !

Poland should put its own house in order before attempting to tell others what to do.

As a general rule it could be applied to every country or individual!
However, in the case presented above the issue and solution is simple, either follow the reciprocity right and EU regulation or await the punishment !

I guess that every issue or subject discussed on PF you intensionally deflecting into discussion about Poland faults ! Wait - hijacking the thread - against the rules :)


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