Polish Lithuanian Diplomatic War? At last.

As far as I know, this discussion misses the point. It's not about diactrical signs, but changing the names. Jan Kowalski has to write himself as Janas Kowalicius, or whatever is the proper Lithuanian take on it. And this is an active attempt to sweep the minority under the carpet.

What do you know? The area in question had been populated unquestionable by polish majority, even according to biased sources - Russian and German.
And who according to you should military control that area ? Bolsheviks?
You are not even Pole, you are trollish smug, always likely to stir a ****!
Go and play somewhere else!


says who ? you? little cheat, who is obviously unable to face uncomfortable truths about Ukrainian history.

Ironside and Grunwald quit arguing your dreams for commonwealth it is a history, a history of two nations that never will unite again.
The union of Lublin set border of commonwealth but also had borders between Poland and Lithuania and Poland occupied Lithuanian land after ww1 you may give excuses as to why but the fact is that Poland did invade and occupied the Lithuanian land.

Would you approve if Germans in 1920 invaded Gdansk area and have a election so majority can say we want to be in Germany ?

What Poland tried to retaliate for by burning churches? But again it is a part of some other topic. Regarding happy union between Poland and Hungary - then present Czechoslovakia was not an issue - look at the US and its Alaska (they have Canada in-between) and it seems not to be an issue at all :)


I couldn't agree more.


I watched some Polish "eye-witnesses" on YouTube. They recall NKWD soldiers talking to them in Russian and say that these were Ukrainian soldiers of UPA. It seems that some people have difficulty of not only learning a language, but also after decades ro be able to distinguish between the languages.


I accept that, but can Poland do that and stop their pathetic fight over UPA army in Europe. Beasts were both in UPA and AK armies and they are in every army in the world this very minute. But to spread BS like "136 methods of torture" or picture of brutal murders commited who knows by whom is wrong. If you go there, explore Polish bestiality first and than only you may feel justified to cry on Europe's shoulder.


You posted hundreds of arguments against Lithuania. I am trying to refresh the dialogue which became just one-sided talk. I pointed out some points for Polish minority to realize. And I am not taking sides. I just understand their position better than you might. Did you forget that Poland "cultured" me and my ancestors as you and Sokrates have mentioned. Well, as a diligent student, I am understanding what Lithuanian students feel like now and importance of their language and identity preservation. They need to recover. You cannot demand from them to start at a fresh beginning when Poland forcefully put herself into advantage.


Ok. The following problem might help me express myself better: Poland loves Hungary, Hungary loves Poland, Poland loves Lithuania, Lithuania doesn't love Poland. Who out of these 3 countries should be happily married? Pilsudski went against logic here. Don't invade country which doesn't want you there unless you are prepared to face consequences like a man, not like a XXI century wuss.


Hey, Aphrodisiac, nice to see you around :)


I am very comfortable with Ukrainian history. The only thing that really bothers me is when occupants began to cry afterwards about brutalities of the occupied lands. This simply puts me out.


Exactly.

Please, show me one (just one) post, in which I mentioned that Poland "cultured" you (?)
or your country.


But that's exactly the point you see...

A) the invasion you're talking about took place 90 years ago.
B) Polish minority's laws are broken today.

...if one uses A to justify B then I have no other option but to consider such
person a complete and utter retard.

Remember, were on the same side now. You didn't forget that pact we sealed some months ago. :)

Well, I have no education of your caliber, I don't argue, but still this is not the reason to hasten up with the conclusions. Let's do it again, together:



Ok. Who invaded and is now crying because of the consequences? I don't see that Lithuanians complain about anything. I hear Polish side. Where, Torq, do you see me calling A to be B? If Lithuania invaded Poland and made a "happy" life for Polish people and its language, I would be on the Polish side in this issue - 100%.


I am on Ukrainian side only. But I remember what I agreed to and I am keeping my word :)


Halloween is over, ironside, put the candles down :)

You are doing it again. You are justifying the persecution of Polish minority today,
because of the invasion that took place almost a century ago.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vilna_offensive

Mind boggling.

*It's as if Poland started perecuting its German minority in 2030 and justified it with
the 1939 German invasion :)*

In fact, some Ukrainians have exactly the same problem.
I have seen numerous times, in Poland, elsewhere in Europe, in the US and in Canada, Ukrainians who claimed to be Polish when it was more convenient than to be Ukrainian.

bollox he is very helpful idiot.

Hairy I can bet office pc is not as good as yours.



I'm afraid he is. But you do recognize such rhetoric. Don't you? I have to say I do, mainly from Gazeta Wyborcza (Jewish owned newspaper)

About subject: There is no war. This or other way Lithuania will deal properly with all their minorities. I have to say Wilno was and is Polish city in the same sense as Wrocław and Gdańsk is German city: mainly spiritual.

BTW good to see this:


for whatever reason :-)

ups looks like mod are veeeeery effective today and they were able to recognize Harry in PolishTraitor or opposite I'm sorri my english no good ;-P

I won't give up that hope!
I won't force it upon them but, I will never throw away an possibility for Lithuania and Poland to be united again!

My roots demands it!


Yeah most people think Russian when somebody says he is Ukrainian


There was some Ukrainian insurgents during mid 30's attack post offices Police offices and railroads or something. Later on the local population started to join them, as the insurgents didn't want mass murder on the local population they withdraw. But Piłsudski couldn't accept that the Polish state will just watch and do nothing so he commanded an action of burning a few Churches (probably around 30) and some villages.


Oh yeah true

They're already united :)

Well, the Ukrainian churches were burnt or converted in 20s as well as 30s. Are the churches tanks? Eventually, it escaladed to much drastic measures on both sides. But this is another topic.


Most people think Danish or Swedish when somebody says he is from Norway. But those who have some neurons happily floating in their skulls will know the difference. The most important thing is not to go always with the brainless crowd. We live in the age of computers, TV, internet, newspapers,...If I know what is going on in Togo, Mozambique or Papua-New Guinea, though I don't live in Africa or Asia, than if a person has even minor interest in the world and, moreover, lives in Europe, he/she would know the difference between Ukraine and Russia or Norway and Sweden.


Ok, Torq, please, explain me the following:


This articles says about Polish claims on 20% restitution for "lost" lands in Kresy (ridiculous name for western lands of Lithuania, Bielorus' and Ukraine). The final date to submit petitions/applications is December 31, 2008. So, when the war has ended again? almost a century ago? So, why do you still demand some ridiculous reparations? What is interesting is that it disgracefully invites other nations to join them in that claim to make it more legitimate. If Poland can bring past into the future, I don't see why the Lithuanians cannot.

You see?! It is a difficult issue and if both sides wish to achieve something positive, there should be a middle line, which we are trying to find here by exploring step by step both sides of the conflict.


So? There are similar Polish people in all mentioned countries and regions who would claim whatever is suitable to claim, e.g., "lost" lands or citizenship.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kresy - Pol claimed that it was the line from Dniester to Dnieper River so the land of Tatar borderland.

Most modern intelligent Poles thinks that way and wouldn't call Lwów or Wilno this name.
Shortly speaking Kresy is Eastern Ukraine.

And looks like Poland had some right to Wilno:

60% Polish, 23% Belarussian, 8% Yiddish, 3% Russian, 8% Other (including Lithuanian)

Polish language 1918

even Belorussian had more right to Wilno then Lithuanian alone.


Read carefully: NOT FROM LITHUANIA, BELARUS OR UKRAINE F R O M P O L I SH G O V E R M E T

you not too bright aren't you?

:)

No problem - see below.


Nathan - your profile says that you know Polish, but apparently you weren't able to read
the article that you quoted with even a slight degree of comprehension.

Oh, well, maybe you were just bragging. I understand - I bragged once that I knew
Chinese when I was a kid. Same thing with your Polish, I guess.

For those of you who can't read Polish (just like Nathan can't): the article is about
reparations that POLISH government is paying to POLISH citizens,
living in POLAND, who lost their property as a result of borders' shift after WW2.
The reparations are paid with POLISH money (to be precise - with the money that
comes from selling POLISH state owned property in POLAND.)

So, you might think, why does Nathan ask "Why do YOU still demand reparations?".
You might think - "who does he mean by saying you"? From whom does Nathan imagine
"we" demand reparations, you may be wondering. Well, maybe he can explain sensibly
what he meant (I wouldn't hold my breath though.)

Mind boggles.


What I see is that you haven't a slightest idea of what you're talking about (it's not the first
time that it happens, anyway.)


Yes, exactly. Almost a century ago...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vilna_offensive

...and you are using it to justify the persecution of Polish minority in Lithuania today,
almost a century later.

Unbelievable...

EDIT:


It should be: "who were living in POLAND and lost their property as a result of borders' shift
after WW2." It didn't let me edit the original post, when I noticed it.

Anyway, how about Poland starts persecuting its German minority in the year 2030
and justifies it with the nazi invasion of 1939? Hey - it would have only been a century...
almost :)

Well...they did exactly that till the early 90's...during nearly 50 long decades, driving the majority of them out already, millions left for Germany. Even denying their existence at all.

What more can you do?

My impression was that (apart from the 1945/46 expulsions agreed on by the US, UK and USSR) only those who wanted to leave did. That's how you got some of the best soccer players in the world.

I knew two German families (neighbors of mine) in Western Poland who never went to Germany.

What do you think made them "want to leave"? Polonization was enforced and even their existence was denied by the government.

50 long decades would be 500 years - you are exaggerating a bit today ;)


You are confusing Poland with Czech Republic. Czechs expelled Germans on their
own, with "Beneš decrees". The expulsions of Germans from Poland were decided
by USSR, UK and the USA.


But you see, the early 90's were shortly after we regained our independence and we set
the matter straight with German minority rights (even though we weren't in the EU and NATO
back then.) It was 20 years ago (that's how long Poland was independent.) We had so many
things to worry about after throwing off the Soviet chains, but still granting full minority
rights to our Germans was one of the first things we did. So don't tell me it's exactly the
same situation.

What happened earlier is to be blamed on Soviet Union or their Soviet-controlled,
puppet governments in communist occupied Poland.

Lithuania is no longer under Soviet occupation, they are an EU and NATO member,
and it's the year 2010 - they should start acting accordingly.


That is CORRECT! 1989 - the very year we regained our independence :) One of the first
things Mazowiecki did! Makes me proud of that government and of our recent history :)

Erm....math had never be my strength!


I'm not telling anything....but I can't help comparing the polish-lithuanian arguments with the polish-german ones...

For me the Poles seem to play the same role to the Lithuanians (and the Ukrainians before that) as the Germans do to Poles....and Poland tries to justify it's actions as Germans (me) do....till to the somewhat arrogant position of the allegedly stronger and more mature civilization looking down on the "eastern peasants" and the modern revanchists who "want back what was stolen from them".

You just has to exchange the nationalities sometimes and it's eerie....

Really?

Does Poland deny German minority any rights guaranteed to them by bilateral deals
and EU laws?

Wasn't recognizing German minority and granting them their rights one of the first
things that Tadeusz Mazowiecki's government (formed in 1989 - the year we regained
independence) did?

Hasn't Lithuania been a free country (as Poland was in 1989) for quite a long time now?

Should Poland start persecuting German minority in 2030 and use the 1939 invasion to justify
it? (equivalent to justifying the persecution of Polish minority in Lithuania in 2010 with the
1919 invasion)


What are we even talking about here? Are we discussing some troglodyte, skin-head nazis
in both countries? Sorry, maybe I've confused threads. I apologize, but I was under the
impression that we were talking about minority rights here, not about "revanchists",
"taking back what's stolen" or "eastern peasants". That sounds like a completely different
thread (one in which I wouldn't probably get involved.)

Well...admittedly I'm no expert at polish-lithuanian history but here the question also stands if Poles are an autochthone minority in Lithuania and hence deserving minority rights. We discussed the differences with the german and polish minorities in Germany and Poland already. Minority is NOT minority.

Is that cleared up?
Because of the polish minority falls under the EU right than Lithuania will have to follow and any polish walk to the EU court will be successful.

Are there any movements from Warsaw?


Nun ja...this thread is 10 pages long already and yes, these things have been mentioned and belong to the overall poisoned relationship...

Erm... having lived there for over 600 hundred years now (Unia w Krewie in 1385) or in more
large numbers since 1569 (Unia Lubelska) after Poles settled in Lithuania and vice versa,
yeah - I'd say they're pretty feckin autochthone :)

*just like Lithuanian minority in Poland is considered autochthone and enjoys full rights*


Hopefully :)


Oh, sure - there certainly are people who still bear grudges and nourish their hatred
(skinheads, nationalists, nazis, xenophobes etc. etc.) However, we are talking about
official government's decisions, actions and policies. We don't want our governments
to act like skinheads, now do we? :)

Yeah...looks like it! :)


I meaned "cleared up" between Lithuania and Poland, not being rude to my fav polish poster! ;)
Because as I say if Lithuania has accept that then they HAVE TO follow EU law...not their choice anymore and Poland can go to court over that and will win!


Never!

Such suspicion has never even crossed my mind ;)

Gotta catch some z's now - good night, BB.

Merged thread:
Non-integrating Poles can leave Lithuania!

The spelling issue may seem a clear case of a Polish ethnic group being persecuted by the host nation. However, recently a Lithuanian official source put it this way: 'If Poles do not wish to integrate with Lithaunian society, they are free to return to their homeland.'

I found that an itneresting twist (not that I necdessarily agree with it) in view of non-integrationist gendenceis amongst Muslims in Europe.

They were much too gentle in my humble opinion. I am watching 'The Nazis: Warning from History. The Wild East' insight into Nazis (Germans) reign of terror in Poland, characterised by huge population upheavals.

Expulsion of Poles by Nazi Germany 1939-1944[7]Name of territory Number of Expulsion Poles

- Warthegau region 630 000
- Silesia 81 000
- Pomerelia 124 000
- Białystok 28 000
- Ciechanów 25 000
- So called "Wild expulsions" of 1939 (Pomerelia mostly) 30 000 - 40 000
- Polish areas annexed by Nazi Germany (summary) 918 000 - 928 000
- Zamość region 100 000 - 110 000
- General Government (Proving grounds) 171 000
- Warsaw (after Warsaw uprising) 500 000

Summary on occupied areas 1 689 000 - 1 709 000
plus dditionally, 2.5 to 3 million Poles were taken from Poland as labourers to Germany to support the Nazi
summa summarum from 3 189 000 to 4 709 000

Do you want to how Poles were treated by Germans read here
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Poles_by_Germany

Do you want to know more how Poles were dealing with Swabs? Check Zamość Uprising
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zamość_Uprising

And please remind me how many German children were kidnapped by Polish authorities from their parents for potential Polonisation? :-)

upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/97/Wysiedlanie-Zamojszczyzna.jpg

upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/08/Bundesarchiv_R_49_Bild-0131%2C_Aussiedlung_von_Polen_im_Wartheland.jpg


Can I see your source? It's a lie. I can understand Lithuanian. How many of you know that a last name describe their marital status? BTW it's time to change Polish grammar remove that ancient ó or rz and replace sz with š; cz with è or w with v We don't really need all that ancient whistle and bells

Instead of looking for artificial problem I strongly recommend article Palikot pokaż d... some of you may understand all this funny war.

Turning Grzybowska into Grybauskiene is more than a slight spelling change -- it is a downright mutilation. So is Stankowicz > Stankovièius. If it was only Stankoviè, OK. Poland's Lithuanians living in and around Puńsk and Sejny are not forced to respell their names the Polish way, are they?

And what do you know about Lithuanian grammar? Grybauskiene means Miss Grzybowka (I think)
They are small nation and they care for language which almost gone. Only intellectual Lithuanian were Polonised Lithuanian. And Poland should give them a time they need to sort it out. If it's EU law then it's a EU responsibility to force them to comply isn't it?

cut that BS buster !you are talking rubbish !