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Kaczyński debunks opposition lies alleging PiS plans for Polexit


Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
13 Mar 2017 #1
Poland's total(lly hare-brained) opposition will stop at nothing to discredit the good-change govt. No distortion is too preposterous and no lie too absurd if it can be used to badmouth PiS. Recently a reporter asked Marie LePen whether she envisaged cooperation with Orbán and Kaczyński and she said that could not be ruled out. although she may not agree with everything they represent. The Polish opposition latched onto that incident and spread the lie that PiS wanted out of the EU, forcing Kaczyński to set thignsstraight. "It is deceptive and manipulative to suggest that Poland's governing Law and Justice party wants to take the country out of the EU," he replied. His comments on Monday came after daily Rzeczpospolita reported that French presidential hopeful and far-right-wing candidate Marine Le Pen said that she is willing to work with Kaczyński in order to "dismantle" the European Union.

"We have as much in common with Le Pen as we have with [Russian President Vladimir] Putin," Kaczyński said.
Kaczyński also commented on plans to introduce a "multi-speed" EU whereby different member states develop at their own pace.
"The concept of the European Union's two-speed programme is, in fact, breaking up the EU," Kaczyński said.
"Poland has become a country that has the courage to stand up to that terrible concept... directed against states in this part of Europe," he added.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,858
13 Mar 2017 #2
"The concept of the European Union's two-speed programme is, in fact, breaking up the EU," Kaczyński said.

So, when can we expect Poland to join the Euro, or to accept refugees?

Oh wait...

The two-speed programme makes perfect sense. It's exactly this push towards forcing everyone to go along with deeper integration that led to Brexit in the first place, and so there should be suitable systems in place so that countries can integrate more if they want to, while others can stay out of it if it doesn't suit them. Of course, those that integrate more should receive more benefits for doing so.

"It is deceptive and manipulative to suggest that Poland's governing Law and Justice party wants to take the country out of the EU," he replied.

I think we all know that this is exactly their game. Kaczyński is a master of saying one thing and doing something different.
Bobko 9 | 149
13 Mar 2017 #3
A multi-speed Europe is the only way the project has any hope of staying relevant deeper into the 21st century. It is also an entirely democratic approach to the issues the Union is confronted with (to all those who whine about the Brussels diktat). Polish/Eastern European insistence on the status quo is what will lead to the EU breaking up within just the next decade.
Bobko 9 | 149
13 Mar 2017 #4
If Germany and France see Poland turning into a non-cooperative actor (as Waszczykowski threatened to do today), it won't matter what the PiSlamists official position on exiting the EU is - for or against - because then those two countries will definitely proceed with deeper integration among themselves without waiting for others to make up their mind. It's grotesque, really, how PiS's doom-mongering about the EU and their parallel actions have this self-fulfilling effect to them.

link to article with Waszczykowski's statements: theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/13/poland-fumes-at-cheating-eu-for-keeping-donald-tusk-in-top-post
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
13 Mar 2017 #5
deeper integration

Deeper integration, a euphemism for federalisation into a Brussels-ruled United States of Europe, is what prompted the Brits to vote for Brexit. Not many countries want Brussels to interfere in their internal affairs and tell them what's in their best interest.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,858
13 Mar 2017 #6
So why are PiS hell bent on stopping it? What, exactly, is wrong with France and Germany deciding on deeper integration and leaving others to decide if it's for them or not?

The Euro is an example of a two-speed project. Schengen was originally a project outside the EEC. And so on and so on.

France, Italy, Spain and Germany are agreed that they want deeper integration. Why would you try and block them if they're also happy to let Poland stay with the current status quo?
Bobko 9 | 149
13 Mar 2017 #7
I'm very curious to hear the answer to this as well
delphiandomine 88 | 18,858
13 Mar 2017 #8
It's an example of how Kaczyński's politics internationally just don't work. He doesn't have a clue what he's doing - blocking others from deeper integration when it doesn't affect Poland is just going to make enemies out of the core EU countries. Given that they are contributors to the EU budget, the inevitable conclusion is that Poland will receive far less money next time round.

It may be all just nonsense for the domestic audience, however.

Edit: I'm in absolutely no doubt that the real plan now is to head towards Polexit. The onslaught of propaganda against the EU makes me think that the plan all along was for Poland to be humiliated.
Bobko 9 | 149
13 Mar 2017 #9
In it's own, schizophrenic kind of way, it does makes sense... I guess. I refuse to accept the logic of it though.

Remember this is JK we are talking about. The guy who said he could stomach a couple percentage point hit on Polish GDP growth if it meant the country was set "on the right idealogical course". In his grand vision of Poland, where it is an equal partner of the big boys, is the country that speaks for all of Eastern Europe at the negotiating table in Brussels, is an Eastern European economic tiger (and not a bloated welfare child) and so on and so on - a two-track Europe does mean a reduced influence over events, and a Poland that is once again on the periphery. This would open the door to all sorts of terrors, like for example, France, Germany and Italy working energy deals with Russia without asking Poland's opinion. Now the fact that he fully has the option of avoiding that, but refuses to take it, and does everything instead to hasten it, is what can be chalked up to that aforementioned schizophrenia. You either take the good with the bad, or you shut up and sit down. JK is trying to have his cake, and eat it too.

Sorry if I'm not being very articulate here. It's been a long day, and I'm on my third beer now.
Ironside 50 | 10,939
13 Mar 2017 #10
Well, who listen to those traitors and scum? I'm sure that PiS is not playing Polexit. PiS is too much pro-EU for that to materialise.

They just want Poland not to be treated as a second class member in the EU and rightly so. On the knees are only slaves.

I think that should seriously plan for Polexit if not for the other reason to show to Germany and Brussels that this possibility is on the table and what it pertains. Secondly, it is always good to have as many plans ready as possible.
Bobko 9 | 149
13 Mar 2017 #11
@Ironside

Poland is no UK

Look at that chart? Who do you think Polexit would harm but the Poles themselves?



delphiandomine 88 | 18,858
13 Mar 2017 #12
They just want Poland not to be treated as a second class member in the EU and rightly so.

So it's time to behave like a first class member. That means no stupid stunts, no blocking measures out of spite, adopt the Euro, you know...act like a first class member instead of being a spoilt child.

I think that should seriously plan for Polexit if not for the other reason to show to Germany and Brussels that this possibility is on the table and what it pertains.

If they did, it would almost certainly result in Poland losing even more influence in the EU. No-one wants to work with unstable member states, which is why the UK was so exasperating for years.
Bobko 9 | 149
13 Mar 2017 #13
What I meant to say by the above chart is that this is a hollow threat and everybody understands that. It would simply humiliate Poland even further.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
13 Mar 2017 #14
deeper integration

That's just a euphemism for letting Old Europe dictate to the newer and smaller members. All the countries including the foursome you mentioned are in it only to promtoe their own national interests although they may couch it in federalistic-sounding slogans. The mintue Germany's interests are hampered, they will be the first to put theri foot down. Merkrel put the welcome mat out to migrant hordes, but when the influx became too much to handle she tried to blackmail other countries into fixing her blunder by sharing the consequences. It's always been like that.

Also, deeper integration is a way of evading the reforms the EU sorely needs including triming the Brussels bureaucracy down to size, democratising EU election procedures and giving national parliaments more say in how things are run.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,858
13 Mar 2017 #15
That doesn't make any sense. The whole point of deeper integration is to move away from the model where one national parliament can block things based on short term political survival, and instead integrate economies further. The more you integrate the economies, the harder it is for a single country to dictate things.

More to the point, deeper integration also means the removal of individual vetoes. More decisions will be subject to QMV, which is exactly the way it should be as it ensures that a double majority is in favour of any measures taken.
Ironside 50 | 10,939
14 Mar 2017 #16
What influence?
I don't understand why that is a hollow threat? After all Poland has her interests and those interests and ambitions not necessary can be realized within the existing framework of the EU.
What is that deeper integration? So far those are just empty slogans to let German dictate the terms to rest of EU.
Wulkan - | 3,250
14 Mar 2017 #17
or to accept refugees?

Why would you lock the refugees up in Poland you nazi?
mafketis 24 | 9,372
14 Mar 2017 #18
adopt the Euro

Hey Poland, you know the horrible failed supposed currency with no common fiscal policy that dooms half the countries that use it to perpetual never-ending austerity?

You need to use it!

(again a shared "currency" with no common fiscal policies or transfers cannot work long term)
delphiandomine 88 | 18,858
14 Mar 2017 #19
You need to use it!

They need to if they don't want a two-speed Europe ;)

It's the exact reason why I see no harm in a multi-speed EU, as it would let some countries drop out of the Euro safely.
Harry
14 Mar 2017 #20
"The concept of the European Union's two-speed programme is, in fact, breaking up the EU," Kaczyński said.

So The Dear Leader Chairman Kacznyski is in favour of Poland having the same policies with regard to refugees as the EU countries which respect their obligations under international law and also the same policies on marriage as those EU states which have developed past discriminating based on gender.

Good to hear that.
mafketis 24 | 9,372
15 Mar 2017 #21
It's the exact reason why I see no harm in a multi-speed EU

Yes. But the idea plays on Polish complexes (Polish meaning) of being deemed second rate and inferior.

If it were framed as "A countries: need less integration B countries: need more integration" there would be less resistance to the idea.

Almost anything is worth avoiding the Euro (nothing I've heard and/or read about over the last 5 or 6 years makes me hate it less as an economy-killer for non-NW countries).
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
16 Mar 2017 #22
That doesn't make any sense.

Reform is sorely needed. The bloated, heavily bankrolled eurocracy is wasteful as is any bureacracy left unchecked. All EU bodies should be downsized, their pay downsized as well, and the construction of those grandiose Brussels edifices should be stopped. Whom are they trying to impress? Let those who truly believe in Europe work to that end and not greedy opportunists who want a slice of the pie for themselves. The EU needs to return to the values established by their founding fathers which have been shunted aside by wild-eyed anarcho-leftist utopianists such as Schultz and Timmermans.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,858
16 Mar 2017 #23
Strange that you're silent on PiS taking huge salaries from state-owned companies who are doing exactly that.

Almost anything is worth avoiding the Euro (nothing I've heard and/or read about over the last 5 or 6 years makes me hate it less as an economy-killer for non-NW countries).

That's exactly it, a two-speed Europe lets Poland stay out of the Euro (and by extension, inevitable EU oversight of national budgets), and as you say, it simply won't work for Poland now. It's no secret that Poland can't enter at 4.2-4 as it will be far too expensive, yet the economy would be killed if it returned to the days of 3.5 as it's far too expensive for exporters.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
16 Mar 2017 #24
silent on PiS taking huge salaries

They're still a pittance compared to the EU ones. Besides we were discussing EU reform. I have always advocated downsizing the Sejm (Holland has only 150 MPs) and Senate. ALso giving the money from downsizing SB pensions directly to their victims. But I don't make the rules.
jon357 66 | 17,040
17 Mar 2017 #25
PiS

Never, ever, trust PiS.
NoToForeigners 10 | 1,049
17 Mar 2017 #26
Never, ever, trust PiS

@Bobko
That chart is a lie. It says Poland doesn't pay into EU at all when the truth is that till 2013 Poland paid into EU more than 25 billion euro and is expected to pay more than 40 billion before 2020.

Remember that the EU grants aren't free. Germany makes multiple times more money from their investments in Poland than what they contribute into EU grants for Poland.

Only a fool would believe that EU gives money out for free.
Harry
17 Mar 2017 #27
They're still a pittance compared to the EU ones.

What utter rubbish! The average annual salary of EU employees is about €70,000, some of PIS's finest are bilking the Polish taxpayer for well over 700,000zl a year. And the EU employees get their jobs through being the best qualified and most experienced candidates for the job, while the PiSlamic State gives people tax-payer funded salaries for which they are not qualified and have no experience but are unquestioningly loyal to The Dear Leader Chairman Kaczynski, for example Maciej Szota, who demonstrates that owning a kebab stall and graduating in political science give all the skills one needs to be the deputy director of the research department of PGNiG in the PiSlamic State.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
17 Mar 2017 #28
trust PiS

What about the scamster party POO? You like poo, er, um, I mean POO, don't you?
jon357 66 | 17,040
17 Mar 2017 #29
poo

This is actually the level of political discourse that we have come to expect from PiS flappers.
Crow 146 | 9,113
23 Oct 2020 #30
One nice morning people will wake up and found out that happened Polexit.

Many would celebrate, Polish autoshovinists would cry.


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