Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps'

My final point and then bye to all my Polish and Jewish loves... : I quote from
theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/feb/02/poland-holocaust-free-speech-nazi

"I am against both the new Polish and Israeli laws for the same reason I oppose any measure criminalising Holocaust denial. Not because I don't find such denial vile: I do. But because the truth is a plant that cannot be protected by keeping it behind walls, in the shadow of the law. It can thrive only out in the open, where it will be buffeted by argument, to be sure - but where it can also breathe and grow and live."

we already missing your BBC and Guardian links..and quotes from Canadian jew claiming to be polish historian.

one more question Michael..
do your historian know exact quantity of Lampshades and made from human skin by Poles.and how many shrunken head did we manufactured while collaborating with Nazis?and how much soap we made from jewish fat?

from what i remember all those things were 100 % proven to be truth by your king of "historians" even proven to be true in Nurberg

So how about we cover it like this? If every time the Holocaust and how the Germans invaded Poland and set up camps to murder millions of Jews is talked about, we add a note saying that some of the Polish people collaborated with the Germans, we must also add the note that some Jews collaborated with the Germans too [and turned them in to the Soviets]. Strangely, you never seem to hear about the 2nd one.

and about solomon morel who murdered few thousands poles,and about koniuchy,naboliki,about millions poles prosecuted by jewish NKVD.
about naftaly frenkel,about 6 millions starved ukrainians by lazar kaganovitz,
about
Pawel Kukiz graddad,killed by NKVD jew and his dad sent to syberia by jewish prosecutor.
and about jew Chaim Rumkowski who sold small jewish children to be killed by german Nazis
and about most brutal NAZI collaborator that is black jewish ghetto police and on and on

No, it means an estimate, not a guess. The clue is in the different words used. It means that, from the research of the Polish professors and historians cited in the article, the figure appears to be closer to 200,000 than your 200 (otherwise the estimate would be 200).


That's now illegal to say in Poland.


Well plenty of people know about Rumkowski, the Jewish leader in the Lodz ghetto who screwed everyone and abused his 'power', even sexual abuse, until he incredulously found himself on a train like the others he assisted in sending before himself. I wonder if it's also illegal to say that in Poland now?

YEA..Historians such as Gross...
one quote another and call it research.wait until this bill come to life,all those historians will run back to Tel Aviv


how bout Morel? do you know he was protected by Israel and regarded as hero till end of his life?

You are either trolling or have totally no clue about the issue. Jews promote it across the world, that the camps were in Poland because Poles somehow wanted/allowed that to happen. Just days ago one of Israeli top politicians started screaming via tweeter "Poles killed my grandmother !!11" when people checked his family history and called it nonsense, he replayed that's it true, because his grandmother was living in Serbia but then in 1942 she was... deported to Auschwitz. So the sole fact that the camp was in Poland, make it that "Poles killed her". What Israeli media did ? Supported this psycho. That's what they believe in and that's what they have been successfully promoting across the world.

If we don't stop that (now is the last moment we can do it) our children will have to pay "Holocaust tax" to "compensate victims of Holocaust". All the victims will be long dead you say ? Come on, they are "2nd/3rd etc. generation survivors". No kidding. Just google it up.


Oy vey !


Oh my :))) "Bibi" is going to punish us :)) So what this c unt is going to do ? Call us anti-Semites :))?


So who are the best people to listen to about history, then? Poeple who study it, like historians, or people who don't?

The new anti-defamation law doesn't oppose legitimate scholarly research.

Zionist propagandists with their supremacist political agenda and an ax to grind against Poland and Poles are neither scholars, nor historians, nor in any other way legitimate.

Furthermore, President Duda's chief of staff put it correctly:


Polish-president's-aide-writes-US-Congressmen-amid-spat-over-antidefamation-law

you use one book as source is called Plagiarism
2 books -history book
3 books-deep analysis
them today's "historians" sit at home,farting in chair ,pick up 12 books and write 13-th
nobody uses primary sources anymore.
best are memories,notebooks,and ppl who uses primary sources or experiences.i use to even read notes and letters to family from Wehrmacht soldiers ect

not c.rap from some canadian jew or Gross kinda like rubbish

Jan Gross did!

"It was a book that finally forced Poland, in 2000, to reckon with the darker chapters of its past. Neighbours, by historian Jan Gross, told the story of a 1941 pogrom in the village of Jedwabne, where at least 340 Jews were locked in a barn and burned alive by their Polish neighbours. The account was based on interviews with witnesses, murderers, and survivors, and it shocked the country out of a long period of denial."

source: bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-42920934

Yeah, estimate, a guess by someone who suppose to study a specific field of a subject. I see few problems here, integrity and a good will of those people and general difficulty of estimating who exactly is responsible for selling out Jews. That is task impossible to preform with any degree of accuracy.

Any numbers are kind of suspect.
Given that people are kind is simple, I would hate to give any number here a sentiment that any researcher worthy his salt should share. After all those responsible for their deaths are known, or should be known.

That strange focus/obsession on negatives is not healthy for anyone. How many people are dead due to Jews? Is that anti-Semitic? How come the same question about Poles is not considered anti-Polish?


No, it is not. It is illegal to say that the Polish nation is responsible for the Holocaust or is/were any way complicit.


Define plenty. In my opinions, estimate there're very few people that are aware of it. That lack of knowledge is not helped by the fact that Jews or Israelis seldom talk about them. They rather focus on others.

nope he didnt..and not a single scholar regard him as historian,because of hes manipulations and outrage lies
Gross's critics have argued that Golden Harvest is based on a one-sided interpretation of its sources, the vast majority of them secondary ones. and thatch what is commonly regarded among scholars-as c.r.a.p

Gross is school time colleague of Michnik(hes family being wanted for Stalinist crimes in Poland),not even basic historian background.

Hmm, technically it was a German soil at the time.


He was since rebuffed many times as merely a fantasy writer not a researcher with any sencietific credence.

No, a "guess" has no supporting evidence. An "estimate" has supporting evidence and (usually) a confidence interval, e.g. "an estimate of 200,000, but ranging between 150,000 and 35,000". Even though absolute accuracy might not be possible, a useful estimate can be. A guess is not very useful.

Well, the difference is that Israel (for example) is not trying to make it illegal for people to discuss the question. Poland is.


It was featured in this BBC documentary series: amazon.co.uk/Auschwitz-Nazis-Final-Solution-DVD/dp/B0006FNXNA

Which was also shown in the USA (so large audiences in both countries), and is frequently repeated. It is 63rd in documentary DVD sales rankings on Amazon and is available on Netflix. So quite a lot of people seem to have seen it - millions. The series also talks about the sex slaves within the camps, for use by favoured prisoners as rewards, so doesn't hold back from the truth.

So the BBC is lying?

According to the wikipedia entry his primary sources were initially the transcripts of televised interviews - taken from video shown on Polish tv.

It additionally states that the Polish Institute for National Remembrance partly corroborated the findings. Interestingly, the link to that page has been removed from the IPN website...I wonder why.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neighbors:_The_Destruction_of_the_Jewish_Community_in_Jedwabne,_Poland

Well, of course, reparations rent-seeking Israel would encourage blaming Poland for the Holocaust.

By the way how many Jewish kapos did Israel hunt down and convict and how publicly is this discussed in Israel and the West? Or are the Israeli court records sealed for another generation to save face and squelch public knowledge (and outrage) concerning the unforgivable acts of these Jewish criminals who facilitated the Holocaust and are directly responsible for the suffering and extermination of Poles in Jewish death camps?

Read my typing - no it is not.

You folks brought it up already 1 or 2 years ago. I remember I checked his "methodology" and turned out that for him all the Jews killed outside of ghettos/camps were "victims of Poles". Why ? Because Poles could have saved them but they didn't. No kidding. It's pretty much another variation of the same crap - she was deported to a camp in Poland hence "Poles killed her". You dudes seriously think you can impose that nonsense as the "official version" ? You must be nuts.

Pot, kettle, black?!

@TheOther,

So now you even doubt Wiki, eh? I know very well what I read, namely, that old man Gabriel (Sigmar's dad) WAS a Nazi sympathizer. Clear enough for you?

Furthermore, what's self-flagelatory about coming clean about one's familiy's Nazi ties, however faded, however distant?

According to a book put out during the 90's, I believe, ("Papa, hast du's getan?: Taeterkinder sprechen" = Did you really do that, dad? The children of Nazi

criminals speak), the past is still very present in German society, literary excursions into "American-style" adventure fiction notwithstanding!

Nope.

Just casually observe migration patterns (or rather ratlines) after WWII.

Many Nazis fled to South America to avoid being held to account.

Many more Jews fled to Israel (which had no extradition treaty with Poland) rather than stay in Poland and rebuild.

Why?

Were they afraid that staying in Poland would lead to investigations, arrests, trials, and convictions for collaborating with the Nazis?

Notice too how the largest migration of Jews to Israel also occurred following the collapse of the Soviet Union where millions of innocent people (including Poles) were systematically enslaved for their labor and murdered in its draconian gulags for ideological, religious and ethnic purposes.

Again, why? What were they running away from and in particular to a country with no extradition treaties?

Whatever the motive the observable aforementioned facts certainly explain why the Israeli kettle is forever whistling at high pitch about Poland and the Holocaust. All that noise certainly distracts from the blackness of Israeli hypocrisy and immorality and above all the refuge and succor it has deliberately provided to its citizens who are guilty of war crimes and crimes against humanity in other countries; most especially in Poland.

At least they were in Poland, unlike your ancestors.

Certainly building a democratic Israel was a far better choice than staying in Stalinist Poland.

Amen, delph! Spot on.

Maybe it was because of events like Kielce, where 42 returning Polish Jews were murdered by Polish police, soliders and civilians? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kielce_pogrom

Or maybe it was because of experiences like that of Ben Helfgott, who was 9 when the Nazis arrived in Piotrkow. He was protected by his Polish boss, but eventually ended up in Buchenwald then another camp. When he was liberated and went home, he was beatne up and almost killed by Polish army officers. His is quoted saying this here: bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-42920934.

327 documented cases of attacks, with 1000-2000 victims. Summary here with extensive source references: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Jewish_violence_in_Poland,_1944%E2%80%931946

So maybe that's why many Jews didn't stay and "rebuild".

That does not deingrate the many, many heroic acts of protection of persecuted people, especially Jews, in Poland. I know of some personal examples, not documented, but conversations with people, showing how numerous they were. But that was not the case for everyone. There are dark episodes too, very dark. These also happened. It's not a question of blame, it's a question of honesty and maturity.

Only in post -War Poland (also Romania), were Jews punished simply because they were Jews. Even in post-War Germany, Hungary, and Austria, there is nothing to equate with Kielce, sorry.

What really worries me about this law is that it has sparked off such fury in Israel, I have been reading many of the comments in the leading press, It is very clear that many people in Israel see Poland and it's people as a whole responsible for the atrocities, the posters are not just older people in fact most are quite young as they talk about great grandparents and what the poles did supported by the nazis.

I am worried by how we are demonised maybe to the point of being classed a sub class of mass murderers and anti Semites, these young posters will be the politicians and generals of the future, as a nuclear power I worry that any given excuse Israel might press the button with true belief they were ridding the world of a sub class of historic wrong doers. I guess Americas response would be to tick them off, then business as usual.

Yeah I think the bill is badly phrased and probably should not be passed by the president, I think with all the press most people are aware not to use the phrase "Polish Death Camp".

I couldn't agree more, dolno.

Well, this is what happens when a government weaponises and tries to control history. (Yes, Israel does it too, but most modern democracies don't).

Applebaum gives a good insight into why this happens - it's because those with direct memory of the events have mostly goine, so we are left with a 'cartoon' version of non-witnesses who can be manipulated by the politicians. There is no longer anyone to stand up and say "I was there, it wans't like that". Anyone can (and does) try and discredit a book or historian. It's pretty hard to discredit a woman with a camp tattoo on her arm and an actual memory to speak to your face.

washingtonpost.com/opinions/global-opinions/the-stupidity-and-unenforceability-of-polands-speech-law/2018/02/02/95888e36-082b-11e8-8777-2a059f168dd2_story.html?utm_term=.6722fae7dd8f

It's easy to be a revisionist when all the real witnesses are dead.

Poland and Israel need to act together now to preserve what evidence is left and jointly investigate allegations that are being thrown around on both sides, I wish Russia would release some of its records but that is not going to happen , only until known and agreed facts are put on the table and accepted as a joint fair assessment of what happened can we move forward to build better relations for the future.