AfD politician: Poles are land-stealing n*ggers

Because they are populists and only in opposition, which means no one holds them accountable for their mistakes because they do not make any when they are not in power.

That is actually not true. The waiver in question is perfectly valid from a legal point of view.

Whether or not the Soviet Union applied pressure on Poland is inconsequential. There is no "duress" in international law that could invalidate agreements, treaties and so on. Otherwise most peace treaties would be considered void as well, if they were signed after putting (military) pressure on one side.

The waiver was subsequently confirmed by successive Polish governments as valid, the last time in 2006. Compared to that, whether or not it originally adhered to the constitutional laws of the People's republic is inconsequential in international law.

notesfrompoland.com/2024/07/08/majority-of-poles-want-government-to-seek-war-reparations-from-germany/

So yeah, legally speaking the matter is closed.

I think it would be wise of Germany to offer some symbolic reparations, e.g. further compensation for surviving victims or the restauration of some representative buildings that have been destroyed (e.g. the Saxon palace). But then again, PiS has poisened this debate so much that anything Germany could realistically offer would be considered as pittance compared to the amount it supposedly owns in reparation. And I fear it is only a matter of time until the AfD discovers this topic for themselves. It is all a folly, considering there is a very real war ongoing in Europe right now.

Ahhhh, ahahaha... a juicy subject for them - surely. Promising many votes.

PiS never expected reparations, it's just a way to goose up their easily manipulated base.

Think of Polish 'claims' for reparations like russian nuclear threats.... empty rhetoric that they have no intention of seriously following through on.

You should be Professor of some Slavic Faculty.

You've lived so long among the natives, you understand them better than they understand themselves.

As a Russian, you have no true comprehension of Slavs.

BS, why are you pulling such nonsense in your serious German manners? I noticed that you Germans, while lying and gaslighting people, are dead serious. Why don't you wake up? It is not for you to decide it.
If you claim you gave something that was supposed to be Poland's repartitions to the Soviet Union, ask them to give it back or pay it to Poland. That is between you and Russia. Poland has nothing to do with it.
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It doesn't matter what PiS did or didn't do; the fact remains that the issue is not resolved. Any Polish government that respects the interests of Poland will not let it go.

I don't think the AfD would be worse than any current or past German government; they are all roughly the same in that regard. At least with the AfD, a real debate about the interests of both countries could be possible.
The only point I can agree with is that now is not the best time to address this issue. We need to wait till the peace in Ukraine.

Iron, the AfD just waits to gain the power to cuddle up to Russia again....do you really think its about the right time to hate the Germans some more?
Was the traditional polish way, to be friends of far away countries but hating their neighbours, really like the "good 'ol times" to repeat all the errors?

....anyhow Poles like to forget the billions from the EU structural fond flown into Poland for decades, for restructuring, modernizing and rebuilding, mainly paid for by western Germany....maybe an allocation of the sums demanded and already paid by Germans into Poland would be a comfortable compromise!

But probably not for the german-hating-hardliners, for them nothing will be enough, so even trying is futile....but it might very well be that this gov is the last so pliable, just saying....

What is the difference between them and past German governments? Their policies have made the Putin regime stronger, enabling him to strengthen Russia's military. In this case, Germany is responsible for feeding the monster.
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You got it wrong, the old generation might have such hate those in their 80s, others do not hate Germans. You are projecting or overthinking iit.
Some issues between Poland and Germany haven't been solved:
First, compensations or what have you, I think you, as most German has no clue what your state and police, as well as the Army, were up to in Poland. Otherwise, the reaction of Germans wouldn't be that (in the eyes of many Poles) shameless.
Second, our national interests are at odds.
Third, the EU, contrary to your opinion, is working in Germnay favor, and naturally that fact is detrimental to Poland's interests.
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You could pay in rates. I would be favorable to negotiations, but if someone is stubborn, well, I have no sympathy. You know me.

Americans had a lot of reasons to like Russia aka the Soviet Union.

Just count those Americans who didn't die in Europe while the Red Army was fighting 300 German divisions...

Installments was the word you wanted, Iron.


Czechia got more per capita, and Prague wasn't razed to the ground neither were 6 million Czechs murdered, so there's no point mentioning that.

And you are all missing the point--seeing that the 1953 "waiver" is totally invalid and has never been legally confirmed by any Polish government, it opens the gate for various kinds of sh*t stirrers on both sides of the border to come back to the issue indefinitely.

That's why it should be settled between the current pro-German government in Poland and the German side (because if PiS comes back to power they will make a huge mess out of it again) once and for all, so that nobody can come back to it in the future.

And it has to be something beneficial for both sides - for example, if Russia decides to go on a rampage again, Poland will be shielding Germany from the attack, therefore if Germany armed one Polish division with brand new tanks, AFVs and artillery, I would say that'd be enough as a reparation and a very symbolic gesture at the same time - Polish soldiers armed and equipped with German weapons and gear. We could even come up with some kick-ass name for the division... 1. Sarmatisch-Nordische Mechanisierte Division (1. Sarm.-Nord.). Think about it - it would be sooo cool! :)

The last thing PiS (or aligned) want is to have the issue settled and no matter how much German were to give they would say it's not enough.

The whole thing is ridiculous to be talking about a conflict that ended over 80 years ago.

Yes, indeed, but rates or instalments Germans hate to pay both.

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Are off topic in this thread. Do you think decision makers, even in the U.S., give a flying F about it?

Exactly.

That's why KO has to settle it.

KO should be shopping for prison uniforms; they can still order them to be made to fit.

What they can negotiate, after their negotiation, we would have to pay Germany, that's what they can do. Also, they can be bought for a few pennies. No.

So?

Does that make all the german money and support flowing into Poland now worthless?


No, it isn't! Otherwise anybody can decades old agreements throwing into the bin....and do as Russia does!


....for that it needs a common european army....but that idea sounds further away than ever!


I fear Germany is done being the fat little piggy waiting to be sucked for all things WWII....seriously!

Who says that?

You are making a moral argument, I am making a legal argument - the matter has to be settled properly.


The problem is that legality of this agreement is open to question. Why leave it like that and give all the nutters on both sides a chance to stir sh*t?


Not necessarily. Ukrainian army is not even a EU army but we support it. Polish army - as the strongest easternmost EU/NATO force - protects all of Europe from the East.

....there will always be nutters with **** to stir!

It's like kidnapping....you pay once and you have to be ready taken hostage again and again, as it has been shown such a profitable business!

Not to mention that Poland will only be the first....Europe is full of age old grievances (Russia anybody)....it just takes for the nutters to come into power in their respective capitals! Why are you so sure its only Warsaw?

Poland is opening here a can of worms which better stays closed, as it brought Europe peace for many years....

Hmm... if you put it this way. 🤔

This is not true. The waiver has been confirmed by several Polish government, the last time in 2006.

Legally speaking, this is an open and shut case, like I explained.

There is nothing to reopen from a legal point or view here. However like I said, it may be right from a moral point of view to make some symbolical reparations.

For a while, I thought you were an AI robot created to pi** off Americans.

With 3 errors in the quoted sentence, I am relieved that you are not. Annoying and often wrong, but not a robot.

If you mean 2006 Anna Fotyga's written reply to a parliamentary interpellation, then it was most certainly not - by any means - a binding confirmation of the 1953 so-called reparations waiver.

First of all, a ministerial answer to an interpellation:

1. is not an international agreement,
2. is not a unilateral act of state with binding effect,
3. creates no new obligations for Poland.

It is merely an informational document, not a legal act. Therefore it cannot "confirm" any international waiver, especially if the waiver was illegal to begin with, and it was, like I explained.

Also, The Minister of Foreign Affairs has no constitutional competence to bind the state unilaterally. According to the Polish Constitution (both 1997 in force in 2006, and historical doctrine): the FM cannot unilaterally issue binding declarations of renunciation of claims. Any act that would waive or reconfirm international claims must be done through an international treaty or an explicit Council of Ministers resolution (uchwała RM) authorizing such a position. The 2006 reply had none of these features.

Also, The 2006 statement did not use the legal form of an "act of state" A binding unilateral declaration in international law (per ICJ jurisprudence, e.g. Nuclear Tests Cases) must:

- be made publicly,
- be intended to create legal consequences,
- use clear and formal language,
- be issued by an official empowered to bind the state.

The 2006 reply was:

- not public in the sense of international fora,
- not intended as a legal act,
- drafted as an internal parliamentary answer,
- lacking any formula indicating creation of obligations.

Thus it cannot qualify as a binding unilateral act.

And the 2006 restatement did not repeat the waiver itself - only an interpretation of history

Fotyga's statement did not say: "Poland hereby confirms the 1953 waiver." It merely stated that, according to the Ministry's interpretation, the 1953 waiver was "unambiguous" in Polish legal doctrine. This is a historical and doctrinal claim, not a legal confirmation. A restatement of an interpretation is not a restatement of a legal act.

In addition, there was no publication in the Journal of Laws (Dziennik Ustaw). Any act binding Poland internationally must be published in the Dziennik Ustaw, or recorded in the Monitor Polski, depending on the type of act. The 2006 reply was published nowhere in the state legal publications - another indication that it was not intended as a state act with legal force.

Not to mention that International law requires a state waiver or its confirmation to be formally communicated to the other state. The 2006 reply was not delivered to the German government or any international body. Without communication, no international legal effect is created.

Don't forget that the same government (PiS, 2005-2007) later supported studies on reparations, argued publicly that Germany might still owe compensation, and did not close the discussion internally. This inconsistency undermines the argument that the 2006 reply was intended as a conclusive, binding reaffirmation.

To sum up:

1. The "waiver" had no normative force.
2. The FM had no authority to bind Poland.
3. It lacked the legal form of a unilateral act.
4. It restated an interpretation, not the so-called waiver itself.
5. It was not published officially.
6. The 1953 "waiver" remains legally contested.
7. The government later showed no intent to treat the issue as closed.
8. No diplomatic communication was made.

So, why not accept the fact that the case for reparations is not legally closed and finally close it properly with binding statements from both sides?

Why not negotiate and agree to a form of reparations, even if merely symbolic, with Tusk - the most pro-German Prime Minister in Polish history?

Why the stubborn refusal to even talk?

If this is not settled today by civilised governments of Germany and Poland, then tomorrow - when AfD and PiS are likely to rule our respective countries - it may blow up in our faces.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it, Tacitus.

Memo to Germany:

Just say no.

Well, that's exactly what they're doing.

It solves nothing.

I respect your feelings on the matter, but those are only feelings, not facts. Also, it would be more understandable if Germany refused to pay at all to everybody rather than make only one exception, namely, Poland. Looks like you are picking on us.
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Memo to Novi: Be consistent and mind your business. You want the US to stay out of Europe's issues, well, lead by example and stop meddling.
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Of course!

Recently Merz promised the Rainforest or something in that regard another Billion that we don't have....not to mention the Billions promised to Gaza and such! At the same time the retirement pensions are to be shortened...our infrastructure is full of holes....our schools scream for help.....this man is dangerous....we are already broke!

This "handing out free money for the world" has to stop!!!

There is nothing to solve.

Memo to Germany: Ignore them and say: Odpierdol sie...Leave NATO, tell your greens to STFU, make friends with Russia, start buying their gas, get rid of Muslim scum, and rebuild your industry. America needs a parther in Europe, not an obedient woke bunch of apologetic azzholes...

Also...BB for president...

Now I want my honorary German citizenship...

and the iron cross.

Why do you "fear"? It's long overdue that the Germans move on. Maybe Poland should do the same? Oh well, we all know that many of them are stuck in the past and will never leave, don't we? Just ignore them.


Exactly. Enough is enough.

Because as I explained, the case has been legally closed for many years now.

Multiple Polish governments have confirmed the waiver and its' effect. That is beyond dispute, even if you try to downplay it.
There was never any doubt about it's validity until PiS discovered the reparation issue as a way to rile up domestic support, more than 60 years after Poland had waived any claims towards reparations. PiS has now seemingly put a lot of money and effort in trying to prove otherwise, but if your post is a good indication of what they came up with, it is not nearly enough to overturn the precedence set by more than 60 years. I mean really, this is ultimately the argument? "Our governments got it wrong for the last 60 years and we get it right?"


Hardly. For one, PiS has ruled for 8 years and used this as a sledgehammer while Russia invaded Ukraine and threatens Poland. But other than poisening relations, it has done absolutely nothing with it.

And even assuming Germany settled the reparation issue (again) with a Tusk government and agree to pay symbolical amount (maybe 1-10bn).

What would that solve or change? It wouldn't improve the legal position, since the issue had been settled years ago anyway. Germany would benefit in no way from it, and in return other countries might see this as an opportunity to seek reparations from Germany as well (because after all, if a closed case like this one can nevertheless be reopened, why couldn't others be opened again?).

PiS would use this as another example of Tusk selling out to Germany, blame him for getting only pittance (because anything Germany could realistically offer is a pittance compared to what Pis claims). And since PiS has no compunction about disregarding past settlements and views from previous governments, it would also inevitably find a way to "prove" that this settlement wasn't valid either. I mean the narrative is obious, the Polish government in 1953 who bowed to the Soviets, Tusk who bows to Germany and Bruessels... . Traitors who acted against Poland's interest, as opposed to PiS.... .

All we can at this point is a) offering some symbolic gestures like the ones I proposed and b) counting on time and the threat of Putin to put this issue to rest once again.

In a few years, the last surviving victims of WWII will have passed on. Poland will have become one of Europes' most prosperous countries and (hopefully) the threat of Russia will still be felt, but will not have caused more victims. By then the notion of claiming reparations will appear as ridiculous to most people as would be the claim to redraw the German-Polish border appears to most people now.