Professional feminists' of Poland meet-up

It's like you haven't read a single criticism that any of us have provided about the actual consequences of the feminist agenda.
Go ahead and tell us what any of our criticisms of feminism have been that YOU feel/think are legitimate?


If that was the only thing that feminists have striven for then there shouldn't be any debate on the matter. Feminists seem to ignore that their agenda isn't about basic human rights. It's about pursuing advantages for women over men in society after that original mandate has been achieved.


That is incorrect but don't let facts or reason get in the way of hyperbole and straw man arguments.


You don't give a flying fcuk about the women in those countries anymore than you understand their cultures for all their good and bad points. You just want to trumpet the case of anyone living in what you consider lesser circumstances so you can pretend that somehow affects you where you live. You don't care about the people in those places anymore than they care about you.

"We just want equality."
Firstly, no you really don't and there are plenty of examples in Western countries that show the feminist claim of only wanting equality is patently false. Fact!

But equality is a fabulous thing. The only problem is a lot of you can't seem to digest "different" doesn't automatically mean "inequality." There are differences in males and females but feminists, by and large, don't seem to acknowledge the male perspective in this AT ALL.

Feminists are mostly a bunch of slimy hypocrites with an agenda that is largely about your ego. Feminists have no problem with boys being abused but scream like a banshee if a girl is called a name. You people pick and choose what is or isn't an "issue" and don't care about proportionality, only gender. Female feminists are in it for themselves first and foremost and male feminists are really just suckers.

First of all, you are addressing a lady. Show some respect.
Second, who made you an expert on that particular poster and her thoughts?


Rather silly, ignorant and unnecessary blanket statement.


I'm a male, I don't consider myself as a feminist though.
However, what is the 'male perspective'? You seem to be in a minority with your views. Most males seem to have a much higher opinion of women than you do. And thank god for that :P

@ Foreigner4, as I've said several times, you and other anti-feminists have provided some examples of some people who have made statements or advocated policies, in the name of feminism, that could appear extreme or anti-male. Absolutely. I don't deny it. But as I've explained, also several times, there is no official 'membership list' for feminism and no criteria for inclusion or exclusion, and most feminists would not agree with the examples that have been cited.

Your main criticism of feminism seems to be that women have already achieved equality and what they are pushing for now is privileged treatment for women, at women's expense. With respect, you live in a different world than most of us if you think women have the best deal currently, overall, compared with men.

misandrists

Yes.


I'm not writing about parity, but about equal rights and opportunities.


Sure, Polonius3, because women don't do all those easy, cushy, prestigious jobs like cleaning ladies, hotel maids, nurses, care attendants, teachers, kindergarten teachers, cashiers, factory workers :) All men would just love to work as those, right?

But just in case any man would like to work as a cleaning... erm... gentleman? or a nurse - they should not be discriminated based on their sex.


What about it? What about parental leave (fathers can take it too, you know)? What about sick leave?


Well, Polonius3, there's one thing men still can't do, unfortunately, and that's giving birth to children. It ain't our fault that it's us who have to bear the children. If the employers would start firing women who get pregnant it's possible that the birth rate would drop dramatically.

I guess one can dispute that whether the employer should bear the entire brunt of that situation, just as in case of the sick leave. I guess it's a humane solution and common sense, really. Someone has to bear children and people need money to raise them so they could work and pay for your retirement. I guess it's a kind of social agreement?

And would you oppose that if it was the woman who gave birth to the child and the father who would take care of the baby in the early stages taking the parental leave? Would that be OK with you?

Do you have kids, Polonius3?


Foreigner4, you know "a flying fcuk" about me and what I care about and what I understand.
Calm down o_O


That's really sad that you think this way. Perhaps don't judge others by yourself?
The fact that women are not allowed to drive in Saudi Arabia doesn't affect my life. The fact that in regions in Afghanistan girls can't go to school doesn't affect my life. But it sure pi$$es me off. It pi$$es me off that when a woman is raped in Dubai and reports it to the police she has to provide four male Muslim witnesses of the rape (LOL!) or she will be imprisoned for illegal sex. It pi$$es me off that there are less women then there should be in India and China because of gender based abortions (women are kidnapped for "wives" in China because of that). It pi$$es me off that young girls have their clitoris removed and vagina entrance sewn (so it would be "smaller") and are sold like cattle for wives in Africa. And all kinds of other things pi$$ me off too.

So don't tell me whether I care about those women. I do. I'm that sort of person that cares, about people in general, really. Sometimes too much even, I'd say.


And what is this "male perspective"?
I've noticed that for certain men the fact that women are "different" means they are "inferior". That's what kondzior tried to prove in all his comments with his silly theories. Most of his comments in this thread are about this.


What the hell are you talking about?
I have a brother, you know? And a father. And male cousins. Anyone who would try to hurt them would have to step over my dead body first. You're delusional.

@ Paulina, all the injustices you've listed pi$$ me off too. And what pi$$es me off almost as much is people who don't give a fcuk about these horrors, or deny they even happen, and call themselves men. What kind of man could possibly accept mistreatment of women?

Englishman, I just want you to know, and all others, that it's really heart-warming that there are men like you, bluesfan, Polson, sobieski, etc. etc. and I really, really appreciate what you guys were writing here.

It brings back my faith in humanity, really... lol
;)

And I've stated that it is just not right to support a group of people who aren't willing to take accountability for their own ilk. There is a way towards equality and feminism ain't it.


The average woman in the west most definitely enjoys a better deal in Western society than men. Jesus, there are even women admitting to this. Are you really that uninformed?


No one's excited about you over here sister; I just thought it might be entertaining to see how the other side of the aisle in this debate deals with baseless personal accusations for a change.


zing!


Okay, fine, you care about them. So how much do you care about them; i.e. what are you doing about "them?"


On the contrary, it's you who is delusional. You don't care about males as a group, you only care about the men related to you, the others are disposable and you wouldn't dream of investing even a tenth of the emotional investment you have for "women's rights" for anything exclusively male related. You're not alone in that.

That's what sickens me about more than a few feminists: they will go on charity runs for breast cancer and there will be some in those ranks who actually blocked a similar run for prostate cancer. They will spread awareness about rape and then dismiss the notion, let alone the prevalence of fake claims made. They want equality in the family but if there's a divorce they hope that "she bleeds him dry." They are despicable, conniving and arrogant.

yes agree with paulina xx to englishman

@ Paulina and Rozumiemnic, thanks for your kind comments - and apologies for some of the dinosaurs still roaming theEarth :-)

@ Foreigner4, you come across as very bitter. What have feminists, or women, ever done to you?

Paulina
Who said anything asbout sacking a pregnant woman or someone who takes ill? But some type of financial adjustment should be available to the employer as well. Same with any worker regardless of sex who is chronically ill and constantly on sick leave. No institution or company can operate that way. A husband should be able to care for the child if the mother has a better job and he is willing. Poles have already coined a term for it -- urlop tacierzyński.

If we are for free enterpise, then the entrepreneur should not be penalised. Maybe he could pay the returning mother 80% of her previous salary (for the inconvenience and disruption her absence may have caused) for a fixed period of time with the government covering the remaining 20%.

No $hit, brother. I didn't write anyone was.


And what "baseless personal accusations" did I make?


Nothing, obviously. What is there to be done about this? I don't live in those countries, I have no influence over what's going on in there.


No, you're wrong.
I've watched a BBC documentary not so long ago about so called "torture camps" in Sudan. People migrating for work to Saudi Arabia are travelling through Sudan and are caught by armed men and put to those torture camps. Women are raped and men are tortured until their families pay ransom to buy them out. One girl said that whatever you can imagine they do it to people there. People are burned with cigarettes, they have their eyes burned out, limbs broken, there was one guy who was paralysed from waist down - they've beaten him so badly.

You think I don't care about those tortured men? Are you going to ask me how much do I care about them; i.e. what am I doing about them too?

Sure there are people who care only about their own, both women and men. They care only about their family or only their compatriots or only their sex or only their fellow believers. I try not to be one of those people.

Foreigner4, in all honesty, I don't know such "feminists". Blocking a run for prostate cancer would be really shocking, I don't think anything like that would be possible in Poland.

Are you American, Foreigner4?


I don't know, Polonius3, maybe. But then childless people would probably whine anyway that they have to pay so other people can have children.

Could you explain your understanding of the expression "equal rights" in the light of male versus female context?

@ Polonius3, you suggest the state should pick up part of the salary costs for women who are on maternity leave. I'm not sure whether you live I Poland or somewhere else, or whether such a scheme Iain operatin wherever it is that you live. But where I am, the UK, we do indeed have such a scheme. It's called Statutory Maternity Pay (SMP). If there isn't a similar provision in your country, perhaps you would care took forces with the nation's feminists to campaign for one? Who knows, you might even choose to attend their next meet-up to see whether they have any other good initiatives you could support...

You could always introduce a chidless tax for thsoe not helping to solve the demographic crisis.
That's why governing is such a damn tough task. Trying to reconcile conflicting interests when resoruces are nearly always in short supply can be daunting if not downright impossible at times. But because of the goodies involved, there is never a shoratge of politcians trying to gain a place at the trough and stay there as long as possible.

The right to vote in elections, to be a candidate in elections, to work, to drive a car, to study both at school and at univeristy, to not be aborted during pregnancy because one is a female, to be allowed to go outside and do shopping without a male companion, to be able to get custody rights over your children after the divorce, to not be thrown out of your house with your children taken away by your in-laws after your husband's death, to not be sold as a wife to some man without your consent, to not have your clitoris removed, etc. etc. etc.


Who pays it then? The state or the employer?


lol
Interesting, I imagine it wouldn't be a popular solution, though ;)

@ Paulina, statutory maternity pay is paid by the state to the employer, to pass on to the employee. Employers can choose to top it up from the standard SMP rate to the woman's normal salary if they wish, as an incentive to attract and retain female employees. But if they choose to pay standard SMP employers are not out of pocket when a woman goes on maternity leave, thereby reducing any concerns they might have about employing women of child-bearing age.

Thanks for the info, I didn't know there's such a solution in the UK.

Using such expression like "feminism" as a synonymous of equal rights can only a person lacking intelligence or common sense.
Feminism basically is an approach to social life, philosophy and ethics that commits itself to correcting alleged biases perceived as aimed at the subordination of women. Basically feminists view society as a gender biased against women. Consequently their actions are aimed on fighting against that alleged bias. What if such bias exists only in the theory?

"A particular target of much feminist epistemology is a conception of rationality, which is seen as a device for claiming mastery and control."


All those rights you mentioned are are not threatened.

"Feminism is a collection of movements and ideologies aimed at defining, establishing, and defending equal political, economic, and social rights for women.[1][2] This includes seeking to establish equal opportunities for women in education and employment. A feminist advocates or supports the rights and equality of women.[3]"

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism

"feminism, the belief in the social, economic, and political equality of the sexes. Although largely originating in the West, feminism is manifested worldwide and is represented by various institutions committed to activity on behalf of women's rights and interests."

britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/724633/feminism


They aren't in my country. But there are countries were women don't have basic rights.

I think you should read my post in full.


You are sidetracking and we both know it.

I did.
That bias may be the focus of feminists in the West, but there are other parts of the world too, you know.
Did you read those definitions of feminism I've quoted?


Erm... In what way am I sidetracking? o_O

We are not debating Bangladeshi slums.


Unless you are living in a country which refuses women the right to vote you are sidetracking.

We aren't? Why not?


Sorry, Nile, but this whole thread is one big sidetracking. Zimmy is writing about American feminists and the reality of the US, kondzior about ancient Sparta and Athens lol

All of this doesn't have much to do with "Professional feminists' of Poland meet-up", if you haven't noticed yet.

Well we can't all hate women. ;)
Personally, I have no reason to.
I think one would have to feel a lot of bitterness about women and have experienced a particular type of upbringing to say some of the crazy things I read on here.

We can only educate the world one lost soul at a time :D :D :D

QED
I have been on top of things in this thread.

Nile, are you seriously suggesting that bias in society against women exists only in theory?

There are many kinds of discrimination against women. Paulina cited some examples based either on culture (for instance, clitoridectomy, selective abortion) or on law (being sold into marriage, loss of children after divorce, lack of free movement). These still exist in many developing nations.

There is also indirect discrimination, that is to say situations in which women have equality before the law, but not in practice. I would suggest that this situation applies still in most developed countries, including the UK. I don't know the situation in Poland well enough to comment but suspect that it is not much different to the UK. Here, women tend on average to earn less than men, largely because of the compromises they have to make between work and family responsibilities that can lead them into low-status part-time work or discourage them from taking senior positions that entail poor work-life balance. There may also be cultural disadvantages, for instance the continuing existence of crimes such as rape and domestic violence that disproportionately affect women.

To deal with such problems, feminists advocate policies aimed at leading to a fairer society. Sometimes these can look like discrimination to a few paranoid men who are determined to find it - for instance, funding refuges for abused women more generously than ones for abused men, or offering women paid maternity leave but not extending the same terms to men - but until the obvious imbalances in society are resolved, I cannot see how we men can legitimately complain. After all, most of us are (or aspire to be) the partners of women. Why wouldn't we support initiatives to improve their lot?

The marriage penalty of Obama's America is really an arse-backward arrangement. The state should promtoe and foster marirage because it provides social stability, kids growing up with both mum and dad as role models and in general is a better solution tuion for society as a whole. Discouraging it by punitively taxing married people as opposed to singles is weird, stupid and counter-productive indeed.

It's difficult to priase anyhting the Soviet-backed PRL regime did, but maybe the bykowe (bull tax) could be an exception. People over a certain age (21 and later 25) who were unmarried paid higher taxes.

pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bykowe

You mean to say that the world is not a perfect place? I agree there are many inadequacies, unjustifiable inequalities between people. Young and old, rich and poor, from the third world and from the first world. What are you going to do about that?


I seriously doubt that approach pursued by feminists is leading to a fairer society.


Yes because life is such a bundle of unperturbed joy for an average male that being blamed for all the problems of the world by some lasses brings in so much needed bitter tang to a sweet and happy male life.

Is the fact that woman family court judges nearly always rule in favour of women an example of your 'fairer society'? By your definition, is that direct or indirect discrimination?