Who is poor in Poland?

I care not for your personal jabs at me, obviously you cannot help yourself.
I wait for an answer to:



What power did they yield ?

Ask your Dad, he has lived in the Communist Poland.
I have already given my answers, see point 6, post #298. Pity you can't read.


The army, the police, the government in the first place. Plus, the chance of Soviet Army troops removal.

No you did not.
Since you don't know or are cannot answer that question, I will do it for you.
Communism systems depended on political police and military to keep population in check.


the army :
Florian Siwicki (commie) - minster in 1989
the police:
Czesław Kiszczak (commie and former boss of the polish KGB) - minister in 1989 and second in line to the post of Prime Minister.
You were saying ?
My point is:
In fact in Poland in charge in 1989 and in 1987 there were the same people, why end of the communism is said to have happened in 1989?

Because of few changes and few new faces.

"The Day I Met A Martian".

Ad rem:
The points I gave before were the defining factors of Communism.
The role of police, army and secret police are the features of any totalitarian system: Same for Nazi Germany, same for African or South American dictatorships, same for Black Colonels regime in Greece someday. The police, army and secret police are independent of Communisms. They only perform the regime enforcement role. If you do not agree with that, please define how much Communist Nazi Germany was or how much Communist the Greek Black Colonels were.

Now, 1989 meant slow democratic process. You either were born after 1989 or were a little kid at those times. This explains you simply are unaware why it was that way. Bear in mind, The Soviet Union (whatever it was called before) lasted for 73 years, more than lifetime of most people. Poland was under Communist oppression for 44 years, more than half of lifetime of many people (how old are you, by the way?) Soviet Union was a world superpower. The introduction of the Communist rule in Poland meant executions, sending people to exile, driving sane people mad. It was a police country, it was a police block. Any attempt for getting some freedom was brutally pacified.

People living for so long time under oppression simply thought the Communist system will last forever. (You simply are unable to get it, I understand).

My parents had given up any idea they would live up Free Poland again, Dad born in 1919, Mum in 1922*.
So we are coming to the Round Table. You look to this from today's perspective as a young man, and all looks very simply to you. It was not simple at all. Yes, the part of power was left with Commies but you are aware it did not last very long. Meanwhile, the real change of power took place. slowly but surely.

And Leszek Balcerowicz healed the Polish Zloty. You say he had been a Commie. Why did not he help Commies economically when they were in so deep trouble they had to dissolve the Polish United Worker's party, the leading Communist force for 41 years?

And Adam Michnik, am I wrong he had done his prison sentence for his anti-Commie activities? Where are Kiszczak and Siwicki today?
*) My Mum told me in 1993, a year before she died: "Son, I've never dreamt I will live up Free Poland again. And that has happened".

Ironside: You have been brain-washed. I'm sorry for you.

One of my friend said once: "If it comes to demolition of the Palace of Science and Culture, I will vote NO. Because if my grandson comes to me and asks me -- Grandpa, what was the communism? -- I will show the palace to him and say: Son, this was the communism; putting this monster into the very center of a beautiful city". It seems he was wrong. You see the Palace, Ironside, and get nothing about what communism was.

ok, who cares, there's been a whole generation that grew up since Poland has been "freed" and there's been little progress...

now, interestingly enough, the Polish national bureau of statistics publishes their findings about the living conditions both in Polish and in English.

here's what you can read if you care to scroll to Table 32 - Self-Evaluation of the Households Financial Conditions

- 51.9% of households cannot cover unexpected expenses of 680PLN from their own resources

- 15.7% make ends meet with great difficulty, 20.1% with difficulty, 34.3% with some difficulty

- 60.4% declares no fiancial possibility of going away for one week of family vacation

- 18.8% cannot afford to have a meal with meat or fish every day

- 26.4% cannot keep home adequately warm

- 38.5% cannot buy quality clothing

in addition, there are still people who do not have running water at home, flushing toilets, baths or showers.

just over 50% of households have a dvd, and just under 60% have a computer or a car

about 25% have difficulty with accessing banking or postal services

22% cannot afford leisure activities that involve spending money (cinemas, concerts)

19% cannot spend a small amount of money on themselves without consequences

14% cannot afford to replace worn-out clothing

/wiki/Gross_domestic_product

As it is explained above a value of such measure is very misleading and that`s why it is a very limited tool . It doesn`t say anything important . It is just an abstract figure . For example Luxembourg has got the highest GDP per capita , but the figure is a total mistake as there are foreign companies who established its headquaters there who employ workers from neighbouring countries . The real income of Luxemburgians has got nothing to do with such figures .

On the other hand... Monia... Why don't we admit Poland is indeed a very poor country and we live in shocking poverty? Our disputands will be happy and leave us alone in Poland. I could even expect that if we are convincing, some frajer will send us some money. Why give it up?

Because:
"Nieważne, jaka będzie Polska, biedna czy bogata, ważne by była katolicka" (It does not matter if Poland will be poor or rich, important is that Poland remains Catholic!" ;-)))))))))))))))

Who said the above, Ironside and of what political party member he was? ;)

The scale of underground economy in Poland is enormous ( I will not comment the reasons of such activities ) , but according to independent analytical institutes it consists of 27% of GDP.

Poland has got GDP per capita roughly at 18 000 $ level , when you add 30% of it it will make 24 000 $ which is quite normal for a post soviet block country . And also it is always better for a small country to have a higher level of GDP ( see Luxembourg or Slovakia in post soviet block ) because even a small movement of any investment makes a big boost of such figures .

most people did say just that, to your own statisticians. The surveys didn't ask, Hey, average Pole, what's your GDP, or PPP? They asked, Do you feel like you can afford to live on your income, and an overwhelming majority said no.

The only thing I would believe is the date on the report, even then, I would check that twice.

Saying that you had the money to do and buy these things is begging the government to put up taxes.
Take DVD players, what do expect Joe-public to say, "yes, I have one in the car, one on the computer, one with the television and oh yes, I forgot about the one in the kids bedroom".

Those kind of surveys are worthless, especially when you ask the generation that lived under communism, they might brag to friends or family but they certainly would not admit anything to the government.

I guess you need to take it up with your central statistical office. the data was from 2009, published in 2011:

stat.gov.pl/cps/rde/xbcr/gus/PUBL_wz_dochody_i_warunki_zycia-rap_2009.pdf

that included samples from all generations, all types of incomes (workers, self-employed, pensioners, etc.), towns of all sizes, rural areas, households of 1 to 6+, degree of urbanization, educational background, all regions, so I'd say it's pretty representative

and since the data was anonymous, like the census, I don't see what it has to do with taxes, and why would it benefit the respondents to grossly underestimate their means, and why it would be such a wide-spread, nationwide phenomenon that everyone lies?

I simply respond "Weeeeell, I don't remember exactly... My memory is not what it used to be... What are the options?". Then the interviewer says: "Does your family make at least PLN2000 monthly?". Then I say: "Perhaps". Then she puts this figure in and goes to next neighbour.

We have never got a question: "How many PC do you have?". I would say "Four". And that's true.

you're not making any sense, Antek. are you asking about the methodology of the surveys? have a look, it's a statistically validated random-sampling survey, it's all explained there. or are you trying to say they faked all the thousands of questionnaires?

it's your own government that collected and published the data, not the CIA, or some other American imperialistic conspiracy to make you feel bad...

the cover page also says they welcome suggestions, so go ahead, give them a call.

That's your definition of poverty. You think that poor means basically homeless. For me a person, who can't afford going out to the cinema or pub once a week or to the gym twice a week or yes, having holiday once a year simply is poor. You may think that people, who have to wear second hand clothes or can't affod buying newspapers are not poor but that's just your strange point of view.


No, I don't think so.


Printing more and more dollars definately has an effect on global inflation but I wouldn't blame it on import from China, some countries (for example Germany) are doing well reagrding trade with China. The problem is not that America buys a lot from China and elsewhere but that It doesn't sell enough abroad. In my opinion that's because for decades American economy had been driven by domestic demand fueled by cheap and easily available credit, so the companies didn't pay enough attention to needs of foreign clients. American made cars are hardly exported as they are too large, need too much fuel... why bother with some strange small cars for Europeans and others, when we can can sell millions of "normal" cars at home - looks like that was the reasoning... Now the problem is that domestic demand decreased and the companies haven't adopted the export-oriented model yet.

See? Case in point.
Only 4 PC machines in a family is not that many, is it?

wow, 4 computers per household? awesome. I'm totally floored, Z, you're so smart! This totally proves that the Statistical Office data is completely wrong!

Statistically, a person keeping one foot in a washbowl full of ice and another foot in a washbowl full of boiling water has average feet temperature of 50 degrees Celsius or 122 F.

Antek, if you want to post something, you need to start making more sense.

do you mean that your four computers should offset three other households' lack of such a basic tool? so if you have one SUV per village, do you count it as five regular cars? if your neighbor goes on a two-week vacation, is it the same as if he went away for one week, and you went away for the other? I guess you could say your four computers and your vet's SUV double your national durable goods index.

you can deny it all you want, but apparently most of your fellow countrypeeps don't feel like they're rolling in it...

ItsAllAboutMe.
The statistical methods do not take into account the fact Poles hate if anyone else sticks their nose in the business and simply don't say the whole true. Also, the questions are constructed the way they miss the point. The major point missed is the black economy, which, as Monia pointed out, makes the big part of the national product. Same was said by Delphi before.

However, whatever we people living in Poland say, You Know Better. This leads to nowhere.
Therefore I suggested I will declare that I am unbelievably poor and will ask you for financial support. Unluckily, some Mod considered my suggestion unfit.

It's ok to be poor so stop arguing about it already. Do you want me to send you a toaster? It was made in the US, i think...

You're missing the point. Which is, that practically no-one is going to reveal their true income for the purposes of a questionnaire - in fact, they'd probably only do so under oath.

Ant is quite accurately pointing out a flaw in the Stat Office's methodology - not boasting about how many bloody computers he's got :/

A (3 PCs, obviously I have some catching up to do - unless I get extra points for running Linux and NetBSD)

Here is what the survey would look like.

What is your income?

A) $10 to 30K
B) $30 to 60K
C) $60 to 90k
D) $100 and above

And you would say, oh, snap, I’m not reviling my true income!
You people are still such a bunch of paranoid commies lol

E) None of your business

Are you trying to convince me or yourself?

Did you see the questions to say that they miss the point? Did you check to see whether the surveys were voluntary or how they were conducted? Did you try to find out how they treated vague responses, outlying responses, or sampling methods?

The questions were not about, How Much Money Do you Make? This is a tax question. The question was, Can You Make Ends Meet - very easily, fairly easily, easily, with some difficulty, with difficulty, with great difficulty. Can you afford going away for a week every year? Can you afford leisure activities? Do you have indoor plumbing in your house? Is there a computer in your household?

This has nothing to do with working under the table, and since Monia discredited the GDP, kinda funny you bring it up again.

You know, I don't care which detail you dispute, I don't give a damn about your attitude about statistical research, or how you argument your denial to yourself. The objective fact remains that millions of people live the reality that is described here, and that's why people are constantly leaving, every day, every year. The only people coming in are from places that are even worse off, and even they treat Poland as a stop rather than a destination. Plus a few misguided westerners...

Do you know what is the representative sample in Poland? Some over 1000 people. For 40 million inhabitants.

I would always answer A

I think you need to take a statistics class, somwhere like in Germany. You guys seem to be well educated in many irrelevant and useless subjects but have no knowledge of anything that is practical. Maybe that’s why you’re so poor in Poland.

Havok, u may be taking the piss, but u have no idea how true this is.

Been there, done that. Now explain why many people with even a sniff of an income above the stated national average dress down when they go into local government offices.

You can call 'em paranoid commies (them, because I'm English and therefore slightly screw with the bell curve) as much as you like, but that merely adds grist to the mill for anyone who claims (rightly) that the data is skewed.

yea, one of the representative sample (one of one thousand) would be Mr Jakub Wędrowycz. Since Mr Wędrowycz is an alcoholic, making his own booze and he's really not worrying about anything, he has no toilet or running water. Excited interviewer notes: "There are still households without running water or toilet!".

OK, I haven't visited many farmers recently but I may assume most of them have no PC. On the other hand, almost every household in cities, small or big, sports a PC. The statistician writes: "60% of households is missing a PC". Now, the farmer indeed has a DVD player because sometimes even farmer needs to have some fun. Meanwhile, the urban population does not need to spend money on DVD players because every PC has a DVD player. Aha! "Less than 50% of households are equipped with DVD player"...