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Who is poor in Poland?


Des Essientes 7 | 1,288
2 Jun 2011 #331
Poles educated in "useless" information are more interesting to talk to than some damnable Germanized statistician. Who is really poor in Poland? The people who are poor in spirit. The people who ignore the ontological because they never get beyond the ontic.
ItsAllAboutME 3 | 270
2 Jun 2011 #332
ok, can someone explain how it would benefit the majority of respondents to under-represent their living conditions? What exactly do you get for saying you can't afford vacations, clothing or meat? Is the government going to write down your name and send you a pork chop, a sweater, and a train ticket to Zakopane?
alexw68
2 Jun 2011 #333
The people who ignore the ontological because they never get beyond the ontic.

Ya know what, I was saying the same thing to the lady down the veg shop only this morning. Uncanny.
Antek_Stalich 5 | 997
2 Jun 2011 #334
I have already told you my case IAAM: I 'don't remember' what my income is but I'm sure we have 4 PC and 1 DVD player that nobody of us uses. As far as I can remember we have two toilets and running water. Last Autumn I had two cars, FWIW, but scrapped one meanwhile. On very cold Winters yes, I cannot heat my house enough since our furnace is 18 kW and cannot deliver more at -20C. Enough?

Why the Hell nobody asks me how many guitars and amps I have, how much of recording gear my studio contains and how much I spent on that? Why nobody asks me why fcuk I bought the most expensive Pentax DSLR? Perhaps the statistician do not know about DSLRs, guitars and amps ;))))))))))
ItsAllAboutME 3 | 270
2 Jun 2011 #335
And I have already told you, you're statistically insignificant.

And to your hypothesis about DVD and computer ownership:
page 116:
DVD
urban areas of 500,000+ 59.3%
urban areas of 500,000-200,000 61%
urban areas of 200,000-100,000 58.6%
urban areas of 100,000-20,000 58.6%
urban areas of 20,000- 59.8%
rural areas 51.5%

the data for computers is pretty much similar, with 52.7% of rural area inhabitants owning one.

Ok, what's your next desperate attempt to deny the obvious?
Havok 10 | 903
3 Jun 2011 #336
Been there, done that. Now explain why many people with even a sniff of an income above the stated national average dress down when they go into local government offices. .

I don’t know, please explain, wait, perhaps people in Poland are envious of one another?

You can call 'em paranoid commies (them, because I'm English and therefore slightly screw with the bell curve) as much as you like, but that merely adds grist to the mill for anyone who claims (rightly) that the data is skewed.

In your opinion why is the data in this survey skewed?

Poles educated in "useless" information are more interesting to talk to than

You can’t make much money with useless, you know that, right?
Monia
3 Jun 2011 #337
And I have already told you, you're statistically insignificant. Ok, what's your next desperate attempt to deny the obvious?

What do you need this information for ? Who cares about such insignificant data ?

I have heard recently over the radio that meat consumption in Poland per person is higher than in Germany .I presume that this data has come from sales figures not from GUS forms .

Germany is richer than Poland isn`t it ? You mentioned earlier that Polish people are deprived of meat as it was said in your GUS stats . Who is wrong ? Who is poor then ?
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,148
3 Jun 2011 #338
yea, one of the representative sample (one of one thousand) would be

Hmm we can go on this way for the next 100 pages... As I understand it, you don't agree that Poles living in Poland are generally poor people... Can you tell us what do you base your opinion on ?

Who is poor then ?

You say Germans are poor and Poles aren't ?
ItsAllAboutME 3 | 270
3 Jun 2011 #339
Well, who cares about what you heard on the radio? Your "I heard on the radio" argument is pretty much the same category as "I saw a trailer park in America."

Perhaps if you stopped just for a second trying to come up with "gotcha" arguments, you'd figure out the difference between, "I can't afford to eat meat every day" and "I don't eat meat every day."

What are you going to bring up next? Albania has more goats than France, and is therefore richer?

Did the sales data track where the meat is consumed? Is it possible the people are crossing the Polish border to buy cheaper groceries?
FlaglessPole 4 | 657
3 Jun 2011 #340
Did the sales data track where the meat is consumed? Is it possible the people are crossing the Polish border to buy cheaper groceries?

I think we will see a further decline in meat consumption across the western Europe, which is a good thing. Why? Read this:

guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/23/german-diet-meat-environment

which makes the absurdity of her pseudo argument (or whatever that is)

Germany is richer than Poland isn`t it ? You mentioned earlier that Polish people are deprived of meat as it was said in your GUS stats . Who is wrong ? Who is poor then ?

even more glaring.
Antek_Stalich 5 | 997
3 Jun 2011 #341
Grzegorz_, you might find these publications quite interesting, the same source:

Economic Survey of the United States 2010
The United States is slowly recovering from a severe recession and, with economic growth projected to remain low for some time, unemployment is likely to stay elevated for a relatively long period. Monetary policy will need to continue to support economic activity, particularly as fiscal stimulus measures unwind. Continuation of targeted support for the labour market may also be necessary until private sector employment picks up more strongly.
The financial crisis revealed weaknesses in financial market regulation and supervision.

Economic Survey of Germany 2010
After a sharp fall during the recession, real GDP growth has picked up, but the recovery is expected to be relatively slow. The global crisis has hit the economy mainly through the collapse of world trade, the driving force behind the boom period before the crisis. The challenge going forward is to tackle the damage done by the crisis on the labour market and to public finances. Growth prior to the crisis was mainly export driven and characterized by the build up of a large current account surplus. Factors behind this surplus were a rise in corporate and government net lending amid continued high and increasing saving by households.

oecd.org/document/48/0,3746,en_2649_34111_44791728_1_1_1_1,00.html

Economic Survey of Poland 2010
Poland recorded the best real GDP growth performance among OECD countries in 2009. The economic crisis curbed the imbalances that had been growing since 2006. In the midst of the crisis, a sharp depreciation of the zloty provided a powerful underpinning to the economy, foreign parent banks supported their Polish affiliates and capital outflows seem to have been contained. Swift monetary policy reaction, macro-prudential measures, a small fiscal package, absorption of EU funds, government involvement to defend the zloty and IMF support all helped to restore confidence. Nevertheless, Poland was not spared from a significant slowdown and fiscal discipline has to be restored. Public-finance reforms should cover pension, tax and public-sector efficiency, while creating fiscal space for the absorption of unprecedented transfers from the European Union at the same time. The withdrawal of monetary stimulus should begin soon, to avoid the early re-appearance of demand pressure, if fiscal policy is not tightened significantly in the immediate future.

oecd.org/document/61/0,3746,en_2649_34111_44904829_1_1_1_1,00.html

I would say, Grzegorz_, no, I do not think Poles are poor in general. There are some riches, there are some poor, however the distribution is not dramatic. By no means Poland could be described as a poor county. It is enough to travel around Poland, talk with many many people, and I do both. Just use your own eyes instead expressing opinions from an armchair.

The grave mistake in the whole discussion is creating the contrast between "rich" and "poor". By analogy (my feet in basins analogy was not understood at all!), I could say Saudi Arabia were a warm country and Iceland were a cold country. How would you describe Poland then? Warm? Cold? And perhaps simply "moderate"? The same with "rich" and "poor". Poland is neither "rich" nor "poor". Poland is a moderate, decent country to live.

What country could be described as poor? India, for instance. It does not matter there are some top riches in India. The country is simply poor. It's enough to fly there and see. Same with Poland, it is enough to open eyes and see. Of course, Havok would immediately go to one of "familok" houses and show everybody the Polish slums. Because you see what you want to see.

Germany, oh yes, it is a pretty rich country. Things are relative however. When bad times come, German people feel they have been deprived of what they deserved for, making them relatively poorer than they had been. I see constant growth in Poland and it makes me feel good, although Poland is decidedly not as rich as Germany.
wielki pan 2 | 250
3 Jun 2011 #342
no, I do not think Poles are poor in general. There are some riches, there are some poor

Antek, please.... The majority of people just make ends meet full stop. Sure a lot of rich Poles and sure a lot of middle class prosperity., but what about the majority of people on some sort of income support like pensioners and the unemployed. What about access to Hospitals and dental treatment. I see two major issues facing Poland today, .

1. Corruption in the Government and local authorities, dishonesty amongst the Polish people, ie cheating and stealing.

2. The low income of workers as compared to other countries.
Poland will never be on par to Germany unless wages are increased and this is not possible. One has to reflect and see that under capitalism there has to be a poor working class to support the rich.

Antek try taking off your rose colored glasses and get back to reality.
Softsong 5 | 493
3 Jun 2011 #343
Excellent points, Antek. When I visited Poland, I never had the impression that I was in a country that was very poor. I could tell it was not as well off as Germany or the USA, but I could see that a good life was very possible. And I also noticed that even the poorer villagers seemed like they lived better than poor I've seen elsewhere. Of course this is just my impression.

The statistics below seem to support the conclusions that you have made above:

Rank Country Population below poverty line (%)
1 Zambia 86
2 Chad 80
3 Gaza Strip 80
4 Haiti 80
5 Liberia 80
6 Sierra Leone 70.2
7 Mozambique 70
8 Nigeria 70
9 Suriname 70
10 Swaziland 69
11 Burundi 68
12 Zimbabwe 68
13 Niger 63
14 Rwanda 60
15 Tajikistan 60
16 Comoros 60
17 Bolivia 60
18 Guatemala 56.2
19 Sao Tome and Principe 54
20 Senegal 54

Definition: National estimates of the percentage of the population falling below the poverty line are based on surveys of sub-groups, with the results weighted by the number of people in each group. Definitions of poverty vary considerably among nations. For example, rich nations generally employ more generous standards of poverty than poor nations.

Source: CIA World Factbook - Unless otherwise noted, information in this page is accurate as of January 1, 2009
Avalon 4 | 1,067
3 Jun 2011 #344
So if your employer asks you if you feel that your monthly salary is overgenerous, you say yes?
Harry
3 Jun 2011 #345
Of course he wouldn't: he cleans a lot of toilets and changes a lot of lightbulbs for his minimum wage.
Monia
3 Jun 2011 #346
The statistics below seem to support the conclusions that you have made above:

Thank you for bringing these data for some square minded people here . They don`t understand the word poverty . One of them said : I am poor because I can`t go to gym or cinema . This shows complete lack of respect to those who cant make ends meet .

Poland in this ranking is close to Belgium.

The projection of a country is based mainly on the external immage which is linked mainly with an infrastructure , which is now in a developing stage in Poland , sadly , thanks to PIS . But in few years to come you will see different Poland, so the perception will be more favourable .

Some of you show your criticism based on some statistics , but you forget that they just show numbers . You have to realise that an average Pole doesn`t exist .

@ Havok - go to poor parts of your city and tell people that they are rich because it is said in statistics and they will throw stones at you and curse you for saying such stupidity . USA is on the 10 place in GDP per capita ranking , but the distribution of wealth is very low .

polskieradio.pl/42/273/Artykul/271291,Polska-w-rankingu-krajow-dobrobytu

Polska w rankingu krajów dobrobytu
Nasz kraj znalazł się w zestawieniu 2010 Legatum Prosperity Index, czyli rankingu państw o najwyższym poziomie dobrobytu.
Polska uplasowła się na 29 miejscu. To mniej więcej jedna trzecia stawki, gdyż łącznie uwzględniono 110 państw.

prosperity.com/rankings.aspx - an english link

The Legatum Prosperity Index is the world's only global assessment of wealth and wellbeing; unlike other studies that rank countries by actual levels of wealth, life satisfaction or development, the Prosperity Index produces rankings based upon the very foundations of prosperity those factors that will help drive economic growth and produce happy citizens over the long term.

29 -th place is not bad for a country totally devastated by the last two wars ( unlike Czech Rep and Slovakia which collaborated with Nazi Germany in WW II and they scored a little better ).

Warsaw was levelled to the ground ( after people had been expelled from the city after the Warsaw uprising the houses were systematically burned by flamethrowers , causing a total city devastation . Poland was just one big conflagration .

Another factor which is important in such rankings is the fact that we are much bigger country with larger population than those two , so it makes the progress in time much slower .
Harry
3 Jun 2011 #348
Czech Rep and Slovakia which collaborated with Nazi Germany in WW II

The Czech Republic did not collaborate with the Nazis in WWII, or before WWII, which is not a claim Poland can truthfully make.
Antek_Stalich 5 | 997
3 Jun 2011 #349
There was no Czech Rep. at that time, to be precise. Nazi Germany annexed the Czech/Moravian part of Czechoslovakia in 1938, and the Slovak part became a country dependent on Nazi Germany.

Just to make things clear.
Softsong 5 | 493
3 Jun 2011 #350
Thanks Monia.... :-)

The Czech Republic did not collaborate with the Nazis in WWII, or before WWII, which is not a claim Poland can truthfully make.

Although that was brought up as a positive point to show how well Poland has done and how far it has come, it is kind of a side issue and does not relate to the topic, directly. The next thing we know there will be all kinds of posts about whether or not Poland collaborated. :-/

Ah....we posted together....thanks Antek for clearing up that matter.
wielki pan 2 | 250
3 Jun 2011 #351
The projection of a country is based mainly on the external immage which is linked mainly with an infrastructure.

Sorry not true, see how other countries use there resources and invest in the future. Poland has not the capacity to move on... as mentioned in my 2 points.... please read.
Antek_Stalich 5 | 997
3 Jun 2011 #352
as mentioned in my 2 points....

You mentioned something in your two points to extend it onto the whole Polish reality. Don't you feel funny?
Tell me what country you are from, and I will tell you the major problems of your country.
Besides, I have shown my cards. Now it is your time to show yours, unless you are too cowardly to do it.
Harry
3 Jun 2011 #353
The next thing we know there will be all kinds of posts about whether or not Poland collaborated.

Highly unlikely, there can't be any debate about the facts from 1938 to 1945: Poland did before WWII and couldn't during WWII.
Softsong 5 | 493
3 Jun 2011 #354
However, Harry, it is besides the fact as to the financial status of modern-day Poland.
wielki pan 2 | 250
3 Jun 2011 #355
I have shown my cards. Now it is your time to show yours, unless you are too cowardly to do it.

Antek, This is a discussion forum, unfortunately the Internet and blogs bring out the worse in people as displayed on this forum. You make out to be so sort of a big shot, ie a know all and to be frank no one likes a smart arse.. sorry but do you get the point. Everyone sees things from a different perspective and no one is right and no one is wrong. The point being that no one has the answers... not even you.
THE HITMAN - | 236
3 Jun 2011 #356
Good post. One of few.

With regards to No.1.
What people and who will actually vote for PO again and why ?
All the dishonest crooks and rogues getting away with blue murder, simply because the gov. turns a blind eye to what is REALLY going on.

Other than that it just leaves the stupid people, who know absolutely nothing about what is happening around them because they,re to wrapped up in their own illusory world.

You only have to read a majority of the previous posts on here to verify this.
Half of you must have the Walter Mitty syndrome.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,131
3 Jun 2011 #357
Antek, please.... The majority of people just make ends meet full stop. Sure a lot of rich Poles and sure a lot of middle class prosperity., but what about the majority of people on some sort of income support like pensioners and the unemployed. What about access to Hospitals and dental treatment. I see two major issues facing Poland today, .

The majority don't get any sort of income support, so your knowledge about Poland is somewhat lacking. You're also forgetting that Poland has a huge black market - many pensioners took early retirement and then continued to work in guarded car parks and suchlike, and the unemployed are frequently employed. You're taking the statistics at first hand - and anyone who knows Poland knows fine well that the black market is huge here.

Access to hospitals and dental treatment is available to all. Poland is no worse (actually, it's a hell of a lot better in some respects - dentistry is in very good shape) than many other European countries.

Thank you for bringing these data for some square minded people here . They don`t understand the word poverty . One of them said : I am poor because I can`t go to gym or cinema . This shows complete lack of respect to those who cant make ends meet .

I totally agree. This nonsense exists all over the world - and is an insult to those that are genuinely going cold and hungry.

I do find it hilarious that "Poles" (who are at least second generation immigrants abroad) are the ones claiming that Poland is some poor and backwards country, while those of us actually living here say otherwise.

Same thing was seen in the UK - you saw toilet cleaners (like Havok) acting superior to people in Poland, even though they were actually earning less than people here.
Harry
3 Jun 2011 #358
In the UK people wait up to four years get NHS dental treatment and up to two years just to get registered with a dentist (and then three months to get an appointment). And even then they have to pay more for a filling than it costs me at an excellent private dentist in Warsaw!
Antek_Stalich 5 | 997
3 Jun 2011 #359
Now you are saying:

Antek, This is a discussion forum, unfortunately the Internet and blogs bring out the worse in people as displayed on this forum. You make out to be so sort of a big shot, ie a know all and to be frank no one likes a smart arse.. sorry but do you get the point. Everyone sees things from a different perspective and no one is right and no one is wrong. The point being that no one has the answers... not even you.

But you had said:

Antek declare your hand and tell me who you are? Do you live in Poland, where do you work, or are you just some retard living in a one room rented building who spends all his time on a computer annoying people?

To which I answered:

It would be only honest if you introduced yourself first.

But I have no secrets. I am a Pole living in Poland. I am a consultant in technical software industry, I own a house and 2800 sq.m. of a forest lot. And you?

Now you declare your hand and tell me who you are, where you live, where you work or are just some retard living in a one room rented building who spends all his time on a computer annoying people. Your own words, coward.
Ironside 53 | 12,474
3 Jun 2011 #360
For the last time topic is WHO is poor in Poland ?
I think that we all can agree that poor in Poland are people who can afford only basic necessities!
Question :what percent of people are in that situation?

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