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Neoliberalism and family formation in Poland


Lenka 5 | 3,442
29 Mar 2024 #31
Absolutely not.

Kaczyński?

I know what you mean but I do believe it's more an American pressure with that model family with 2-4 kids in a photo op. Similar as they have to be religious.
Bobko 25 | 1,995
29 Mar 2024 #32
Why the hell do men get married then?

First, a disclaimer: I am not married, and I don't have kids.

But I had girlfriends for very long periods of time. I really did not enjoy spending alone time with them, for extended periods of time. Like a vacation for example.

I also have many nephews and nieces, that are below 8 years of age. I also have limited patience and energy for hanging out with them.

In general, women and children have more in common with each other, than with men. That's why for most kids, their first love is their mom. They only notice their dad later, and then at some point the dad eclipses the mom. Such is the way of nature.

Regarding why men don't like "hanging out" with women, is because that's what they do anyway, the rest of the time. I see her in the morning, at night, on the weekends, and so when I meet my friends the last thing I want to do is spend more time with her. Meeting friends is a chance to decompress.

I feel it's somewhat unnecessary to explain why men don't like hanging out with kids for more than a few hours at a time.
PolAmKrakow 2 | 961
29 Mar 2024 #33
@Paulina
Men care about womens goals when they align with what men also want. If not, then go hang with all the other career chasers. As for myself, I have multiple children, again being vague because one POS here is stalking me. All are happy and healthy. I support people living their own lives. What I dont support is the narrative that traditional lives and values are bad. I dont support the feminist who cry about pay gaps and other bullshit that has been proven to not be correct. I do not support the leftist radical agenda of 120 different pronons or their mental disease that has proven quite infectious to young people. I would support you and your personal choices so long as you are not trying to create a movement to destroy traditional roles and values.
Lenka 5 | 3,442
29 Mar 2024 #34
Men care about womens goals when they align with what men also want

Buahaha, we care what you want...as long as it's what we want. LOL

What I dont support is the narrative that traditional lives and values are bad.

They are not if the people involved like it that way. The thing is more and more women don't.

I really did not enjoy spending alone time with them, for extended periods of time. Like a vacation for example

Yyy, that is weird. I guess I kind of understand but the thing is all good relationships I met were pretty good at simply having good time together.

Btw, you may want to give the marriage and kids a skip :)
pawian 222 | 24,343
29 Mar 2024 #35
Men care about womens goals when they align with what men also want.

That is why more and more women feel they need to protect themselves against such sick attitude. Males, you can thank yourselves for the rise of feminism, women`s liberation movement and all other. :):):)
Paulina 16 | 4,355
29 Mar 2024 #36
I really did not enjoy spending alone time with them, for extended periods of time. Like a vacation for example.

ohdear

Regarding why men don't like "hanging out" with women, is because that's what they do anyway, the rest of the time.

Ah, OK, it sounded like they don't like spending time with them at all.

I feel it's somewhat unnecessary to explain why men don't like hanging out with kids for more than a few hours at a time.

Oh, but do tell :))

allears

Men care about womens goals when they align with what men also want.

Well, I guess then it's only fair that women will care about men's goals only if they align with what women also want :)))
Paulina 16 | 4,355
29 Mar 2024 #37
I also have limited patience and energy for hanging out with them.

Are you an introvert perhaps? 🤔
jon357 74 | 21,980
29 Mar 2024 #38
more and more women feel they need to protect themselves against such sick attitude

Quite. Nobody can blame the 50% of society whose aspirations have traditionally been kept down from starting to stand up for themselves.

Regarding why men don't like "hanging out" with women

Some do. It depends on the people involved and the context.

correct. I do not support the leftist radical agenda of

I'm sure the world will get by nicely without your 'support'. You don't have a veto on how other people live.
Feniks - | 116
29 Mar 2024 #39
you have some narrow minded views,

Tunnel vision in my opinion. I'm getting fed up with hearing from many of the men on here how if women don't have those traditional views they must be career hungry leftists who will end up alone full of regrets. One extreme to the other. If women want to be stay at home mothers and are in the position to do so, that's fine, but many women want a little more out of life and why shouldn't they have careers too. Men just don't like the fact that the status quo has shifted.
pawian 222 | 24,343
29 Mar 2024 #40
Men just don't like the fact that the status quo has shifted.

.
Yes, men feel terrified and lost. Someone has to teach them that the world and women`s attitudes has changed. Will mothers educate their sons at last?
jon357 74 | 21,980
29 Mar 2024 #41
men

I'd say it's more that subset of men who are insecure and have very fragile masculinity. The idea of women being subservient to them strokes their ego. The idea of women being assertive and not actually needing their BS reminds them how weak they are.
Bobko 25 | 1,995
29 Mar 2024 #42
Are you an introvert perhaps?

I think I am, though everybody I've told this laugh right in my face.

I can be pretty boisterous, especially after a few drinks.

Some do. It depends on the people involved and the context.

Depends on the woman, of course. Sometimes, some
women have mislead me, by convincing me they fully embrace my interests. Then, later, I understood it was all a ploy and they have no interest at all. With men - few such problems.
OP mafketis 37 | 10,846
29 Mar 2024 #43
The idea of women being assertive and not actually needing their BS

Such a woman reminds a (straight) man of other men which is a turn off... Gay guys, who interact with each other in a different way, might find it amusing (though they wont' take such a woman seriously) like I said women try to act out what they want in a partner and are then surprised it doesn't work....
Paulina 16 | 4,355
29 Mar 2024 #44
One extreme to the other.

Yes, I'm fed up with that too, obviously.

Men just don't like the fact that the status quo has shifted.

Yup.

I think I am, though everybody I've told this laugh right in my face.

Being an introvert doesn't mean that you are socially anxious or shy, but maybe that's what people think... 🤔

Btw, it may not be the case with a group of kids, but my observation is that when an introvert spends time with one child, the kid may become calmer - it's like the child is attuning to your energy or sth. I guess it may be less "draining" to be around the kid then.
jon357 74 | 21,980
29 Mar 2024 #45
@mafketis
There's an awful lot of stereotypes in there and pretty massive generalisations.
Lenka 5 | 3,442
29 Mar 2024 #46
like I said women try to act out

Or maybe they simply are like that?
Did it cross your mind that women are actually quite capable of being strong and independent?
That maybe, just maybe, we don't want to act (yes, act) like silly little helpless goose in order for man to feel like they are some macho act?
Bobko 25 | 1,995
29 Mar 2024 #47
like silly little helpless goose

I don't doubt that you're tough, and can suffer a good deal of misfortune without it warping your soul.

But the fact is - every single girl I've dated, told me explicitly at one point or another - that she "likes" when I come in and solve all her problems.

She doesn't want me to just "listen", and "provide a shoulder". She wants me to come in, bust craniums, and scare people into doing what they are supposed to do - and she also doesn't want to know how exactly I did it.
Feniks - | 116
29 Mar 2024 #48
Such a woman reminds a (straight) man of other men which is a turn off.

I can't see why. Being assertive and standing up for oneself doesn't mean being aggressive. Sometimes the two get confused. Rather that than be a doormat.
Miloslaw 19 | 4,856
29 Mar 2024 #49
I'd say it's more that subset of men who are insecure and have very fragile masculinity.

Very well said!

Did it cross your mind that women are actually quite capable of being strong and independent?

Great point!

I think the problem lies almost exclusively with some men.I have never had a problem with strong and independent women, the only time it irked me was when some of them tried to be macho.....no need for that, feminine women can still be strong and independent.
Paulina 16 | 4,355
29 Mar 2024 #50
Such a woman reminds a (straight) man of other men which is a turn off...

You know, women are capable of being assertive when needs be and somewhat "submissive" on other occassions, depending on the situation... :) Didn't you hear that women are... complicated? lol

woah

Or maybe they simply are like that?

Good point.

scare people into doing what they are supposed to do - and she also doesn't want to know how exactly I did it.

Hmm, sounds a bit creepy, tbh... o_O
Well, there are different women in this world. Maybe that's the type you're attracting/choosing?

Being assertive and standing up for oneself doesn't mean being aggressive. Sometimes the two get confused. Rather that than be a doormat.

Exactly.
jon357 74 | 21,980
29 Mar 2024 #51
To read some of the men here, you'd think women were either like this or this with nothing in between and no other options.





Lenka 5 | 3,442
29 Mar 2024 #52
that she "likes" when I come in and solve all her problems.

Hmm, never felt that way tbh. I can't see how a man could solve all my problems.

I'm all for listening and for supporting (let's say 'I can see your job is sucking your soul out, quit it and I will make sure we manage', your car broke down, I will come straight away and pick you up' etc.) but that is something I would do for my partner as well
Feniks - | 116
29 Mar 2024 #53
I think the problem lies almost exclusively with some men

Sadly, quite a few men on this forum.

women were either like this or this with nothing in between and no other options.

That's about the size of it! Prisoner Cell Block H!! Love it
Bobko 25 | 1,995
29 Mar 2024 #54
Hmm, never felt that way tbh

Maybe you are different.

I used to buy into the whole "listen and just offer a shoulder" crap.

Then I realized that the women that I like require quite a bit more. In fact, they judge me, by the criteria of how effectively I can solve her problems.

It could be immigration related (like solving someone's intractable immigration situation within a matter of weeks). Thereby making her more relaxed, and more open to the other joys of life.

It could be divorce related. Sometimes - the husband only requires a good talking to.

It could be money related.

It could be health related.

It could be family related.

But what I learned, is that women don't want you just to listen, they want you to go and solve problems.
Paulina 16 | 4,355
29 Mar 2024 #55
Hmm, never felt that way tbh. I can't see how a man could solve all my problems.

My thoughts exactly... It would be weird for an adult person to expect something like that, imho.

But what I learned, is that women don't want you just to listen, they want you to go and solve problems.

You mean "women you like". Also, I'm guessing it depends on the situation - sometimes women just need someone to listen to them and sometimes they need help. Although it seems like your girlfriends maybe were in need of help quite often :P
Bobko 25 | 1,995
29 Mar 2024 #56
It would be weird

You didn't say anything about how that would you feel.

I understand, you think it's foolish to expect.

But how would your heart respond to a guy, that came and solved all your problems?

Would you want to see him again? Would you rank him above your other guys from the past?
Paulina 16 | 4,355
29 Mar 2024 #57
and solved all your problems?

But that's not possible :))) Or I don't know what you mean exactly by "solving all my problems"...

Would you want to see him again?

Do you mean that he would solve all of my problems on the first date? :D ;D
PolAmKrakow 2 | 961
30 Mar 2024 #58
Sorry, but it is funny to read this thread. It shows just how far apart masculine men are from feminist women. I dont think anyone has said women "cant" be independent, solve problems, or be CEO's. More women have chosen these things over having a family. Thats fine, their choice. The issue does not come up when women are young in their 20's and early 30's. The issues of traditional relationships and values come up as women usually begin to realize what they sacrificed in order to "get ahead" and many find out that having children or a family is out of reach for them now.

Looking at social media and all these women showing themselves off, and trying to make money doing degrading things like Only Fans says a lot about where our western culture is today. Valuing things and money over people and family. Women with high body counts, are shocked when men dont want them, and why are they shocked? The feminist movement for better access to education, better pay and things like this are great. But there is a cost, and that cost is often not realized until many decisions have been made early in life. Regret, and watching others face it, is a very hard pill to swallow.

Chase your dreams, do what you want. But dont expect to get the man you want to wait while you chase all of those. The values of young men are changing pretty quickly. I would with a lot of young men under 30 who follow Tate and Peterson religiously. These young men come from affluent families, and many of them fall into the categories posseing the qualities that young women express they are looking for. These same young men think that todays young women have lost their minds. And then American and Canadian women in particular are angry when these men go to Europe or Asia searching for more traditional women. The narrative of the left, is very influential in driving men and women in different directions.
Alien 20 | 4,925
30 Mar 2024 #59
A thread dominated by singles or unmarried people. It's interesting that married people like Novi, Pawian and others (like me) don't want to comment here.
Lenka 5 | 3,442
30 Mar 2024 #60
I would with a lot of young men under 30 who follow Tate and Peterson religiously.

I would think that would disqualify them from any sensible women's consideration.
As to going east they might realise that women there are much more strong willed then they think.


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