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Neoliberalism and family formation in Poland


mafketis 37 | 10,846
29 Mar 2024 #1
Fertility has plummeted across a big part of the world and in some countries young people seem to be withdrawing from the dating/marriage market altogether.

This has most advanced in the US but some of the phenomena that foreshadowed current events in the US can be found in Poland as well....

So I started this thread to continue discussion on fertility, family formation, neoliberalism and other causes from the thread about the russian invasion of Ukraine.

Perhaps a mod might like to move those posts here....
Paulina 16 | 4,355
29 Mar 2024 #2
Polish women in general are far better educated than American women.

And you're saying that based on what?

And better educated than most Polish men.

Well, if you mean the number of women studying and graduating from universities then the same can be said about the US. And not only those two countries:

nber.org/digest/jan07/why-do-women-outnumber-men-college

"The female share of college students has expanded in all 17 member-nations of the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development in recent decades, so much so that women now outnumber men in college in almost all rich nations."

Pay equality is not surprising here in my opinion.

There's no gender pay equality in Poland. It's just the gap is smaller than in some countries.
jon357 74 | 21,980
29 Mar 2024 #3
quote=AntV]this idea that men in general are brutish deadbeats with a slaveholder mentality that view women as chattel is baloney[/quote]
Is there such an "idea"?

There are certainly injustices and stereotypes about gender however I don't see people thinking that.

feminism that pit men and women

That tends to be second generation feminism. Most of those voices are well over 60 now.
PolAmKrakow 2 | 961
29 Mar 2024 #4
@Paulina.
Based on living in the US for 50 years, and dealing with women from all walks of life there. There are less barriers to education in Poland and that is a big advantage. As for Poland, most of the men I know, or have met, stopped at an under grad degree, and most women have masters or PHD. As for the pay gap in Poland I understand this being nearly non existent since I have been employing people here for six years, and know who asks for how much and what we pay them. Little difference if any.
Paulina 16 | 4,355
29 Mar 2024 #5
. There are less barriers to education in Poland and that is a big advantage.

I guess that's a good point. Still - more women are graduating from universities in the US than men, just like in Poland.

So a majority of women in Poland work. Good for them. A majority of them are not having children and their careers are more important that having a family.

What a bizarre nonsense lol You sound like you don't know anything about Poland. Plenty of women who work in Poland have kids. My mother worked most of her adult life too. And, as you can see, I was born, I'm here - the same with my brother lol :)))
PolAmKrakow 2 | 961
29 Mar 2024 #6
@Paulina
Women are graduating more than men in the US for two reasons. Male enrolment is down, and trade school enrolment is up. Men are also leading the startups in the US, and you dont need a degree for that, just a good idea and some startup money. Men are more prone to take chances.

As for my observations in Poland, they are really mostly based on what I see daily in Krakow. We have a lot of interaction with people, and I would say more on that but some people like to take information here and use it to go after people personally. My observations may be statiscally wrong, but they are my observations based on what my wife, myself, and our friends see.
OP mafketis 37 | 10,846
29 Mar 2024 #7
women now outnumber men in college in almost all rich nations

Given that most women most of the time want a partner who has a higher social position than she does.... not good for marriage rates.

Plenty of women who work in Poland have kids

Most women in Poland have worked since at least the end of WWII... and not because they had dreams of a high flying career....

I remember when young women really wanted kids but were afraid - since a pregnancy or child was a quick ticket to the unemployment line... that is a clear example of neoliberalism making family formation needlessly difficult.

I remember when most fifth year female students (when the magister was the first degree) were married or engaged by their senior year and now... none of them are and they're stressed about finding a place to live since no government does much about affordable housing for young adults..... another example of making family formation difficult
Lenka 5 | 3,442
29 Mar 2024 #8
My grandma worked- two kids.
My mom worked- four kids.
Actually all the women in my family worked and 99% have kids. Two don't, one from choice, the other due to the mixture of health and relationship issues.
OP mafketis 37 | 10,846
29 Mar 2024 #9
Actually all the women in my family worked and 99% have kids

Yeah. Working getting in the way of starting a family for women began sometime in the late 90s I believe.... before that even in martial law there was a baby boom (lots of jokes about the causes for that)
Lenka 5 | 3,442
29 Mar 2024 #10
Working getting in the way of starting a family

It still doesn't, not really. If someone wants a family, they have it. More people simply find they prefer different life. Hard not to see that the childless people have more time and money. Having kids take sacrifice.

I think people are more conscious of the responsibility family takes.

Btw- housing situation is definitely a big thing. However again that is also due to increased expectations. People lived like sardines in the 80s and still had kids
Ironside 53 | 12,413
29 Mar 2024 #11
There's no gender pay equality in Poland.

That is BS.

I have nothing much to add, basically maf says everything I would say and then some.
Paulina 16 | 4,355
29 Mar 2024 #12
Men dont care that you dont care. (...) So, have your career, your money and all that. Just know that to men it doesnt mean anything.

It won't change anything - if you care, don't care, if it means anything to men or not. We're getting an education and jobs in order to secure ourselves and kids and not to impress you or whatever :)

People lived like sardines

Yeah, I was one of such kids - living in one room with two parents and a brother. No privacy and trying to fall asleep in the midst of incredibly loud snoring in the evening and a stench of digested beer knowing that I have to get up in the morning to school, doing my homework in the kitchen to have some peace and quiet, etc. I wouldn't do this to my own kids. Sorry for me having "expectations" (that's directed at male a-holes, obviously).
Novichok 4 | 7,805
29 Mar 2024 #13
That is BS.

If there is gender pay inequality it is based on other factors than who has a penis and who has a vagina.
PolAmKrakow 2 | 961
29 Mar 2024 #14
@Paulina
Thats the point though. It is about securing yourself, and not building a family. Our priorities are different. Men in general are willing to die for their family, to have a family, to provide for wives and children. Women, they are generally more concerned with survival without a husband, or after a husband than actually having a family. Dont get me wrong, I am not saying your view of things is "wrong", I am saying most men dont share the feamal feminist views, and that is a huge problem not just for relationships, but for the world. Most men want traditional roles, most women think that they are outdated, and men will never change their minds on this. Men think with genetic predisposition to these traditional roles, women want to have some social construct that simply defies the laws of nature.
Novichok 4 | 7,805
29 Mar 2024 #15
Men love their women. Women use their men.
OP mafketis 37 | 10,846
29 Mar 2024 #16
priorities are different

There's a tendency for both men and women to stress qualities that they're looking for in a mate that the other sex doesn't much care about when choosing a mate....

men: stress dependability and loyalty and respectfulness

women: stress independence, self-sufficiency and career achievements

Instead, men should stress their career, independence and have a slight zfg attitude and women should stress their dependability and loyalty and general agreeableness. Or don't.... and find out the hard way....

Men love their women. Women use their men.

Better put: Men love idealistically, women love opportunistically.... or men tend to treat relationships like money (ultimate goal, valuable in an of itself) and women tend to treat relationships like jobs (a means to an end).
Paulina 16 | 4,355
29 Mar 2024 #17
Women, they are generally more concerned with survival without a husband, or after a husband than actually having a family.

Sorry, but this is nonsense :) One doesn't exclude the other. And in Poland usually the salaries of both spouses contribute to the family budget.

men will never change their minds on this

We'll see.

women want to have some social construct that simply defies the laws of nature.

Gee, PolAm, I didn't know that men cleaning up after themselves, putting dirty dishes into a dishwasher or cooking a meal "defy the laws of nature" LOL I guess being single is a very "unnatural" state for men, because they have to do all those things by themselves then ;D Oh, and btw, since taking care of their own children is so "unnatural" for men too, then I guess they shouldn't be getting kids after divorce, right?? 🙄

Men love their women. Women use their men.

It looks like it's the other way around.
Paulina 16 | 4,355
29 Mar 2024 #18
Better put: Men love idealistically, women love opportunistically....

What a load of mega bullsh1t (that I've read quite a few times in other places already, btw). You guys really like to idealise yourself and bring women down, don't you lol

🤮

Btw, this is one of the most untrue and unfair stereotypes that men are propagating about women, imho (and one of the most hilarious delusions of men about themselves lol).
jon357 74 | 21,980
29 Mar 2024 #19
men cleaning up after themselves, putting dirty dishes into a dishwasher or cooking a meal "defy the laws of nature"

We're supposed to beat our chests and kill woolly mammoths for dinner while women just tidy things and wait for men to get home so they can spread their legs and be fulfilled.
Bobko 25 | 1,995
29 Mar 2024 #20
Yeah. Working getting in the way of starting a family for women began sometime in the late 90s

Which is why it really doesn't matter what Paulina's or Lenka's mom or grandma did.

Eastern Europe, in general, is very special. You don't see a gradual tapering off in fertility rates like in the developed West, but an abrupt collapse between 1989-1991. The social tumult, and plunge into poverty delayed or entirely cancelled many people's family plans. By the time the situation stabilized, a huge demographic chasm had formed.

Hard not to see that the childless people have more time and money. Having kids take sacrifice.

Only up to a certain level. If you start approaching the level of truly high net worth, or ultra high net worth, then people again have many kids. In fact, in a lot of top firms, like Goldman Sachs (to use a finance example) or Sullivan Cromwell (law), there's an invisible glass barrier against all guys that are not married or don't have kids. It's a symptom of other underlying undesirable traits.

You simply don't get invited to some functions if you don't have a wife. The only acceptable excuse is being gay.

So much of conversation revolves around kids, as well as so much of the vacation travel. If you don't have kids - again, you're not invited.

You can't really grow beyond a certain point in politics or business if you are not married or have kids (while being straight, which I am).

So the working and middle class maybe eating itself up over kids being a burden and a chore, but the upper class certainly is still very conservative.
PolAmKrakow 2 | 961
29 Mar 2024 #21
@Paulina
I dont know you, but how you write is simply demonstrative of the problems between men and women today. You think men should GAF about your career goals and your wants, when all men want is peace for their family and security. Women are opportunists and love conditionally and men love unconditionally. Men are willing to die for their families, women simply are not. Your "we'll see" comment is what every feminist uses when going down with her ship. Maybe women should be eqaul to men in the boxing ring too? Maybe women should be drafted into wars? Women are a protected class and real men are an endangered species.
Paulina 16 | 4,355
29 Mar 2024 #22
You think men should GAF about your career goals and your wants

Well, you know, if you get married you should care about what your spouse wants, actually. You should care about your partner in general (and not only whether there's food on the table). At least that's how I see a normal, healthy romantic relationship - it's when both people care about what the other person wants, feels, cares about, etc. That goes both for men and women.

Women are opportunists and love conditionally and men love unconditionally.

No, that's bullsh1t that men are telling themselves to feel better about themselves, I guess.

Maybe women should be eqaul to men in the boxing ring too?

Men and women boxing in one ring doesn't affect birth rates. And that's what you men are so concerned about, right? You'd like those birth rates to be increased or not?

so they can spread their legs and be fulfilled.

lol
Alien 20 | 4,925
29 Mar 2024 #23
men are an endangered species.

They die sooner
Lenka 5 | 3,442
29 Mar 2024 #24
Women, they are generally more concerned with survival without a husband, or after a husband than actually having a family

Being able to survive after husband disappears is caring for your family. Who will support the kids if the women won't think about that?

men tend to treat relationships like money (ultimate goal, valuable in an of itself) and women tend to treat relationships like jobs (a means to an end).

Yeah, that's why for ages women marriage opportunities were so closely related to their dowry

Which is why it really doesn't matter what Paulina's or Lenka's mom or grandma did.

I included younger generations as well

You can't really grow beyond a certain point in politics or business if you are not married or have kids

I would say that's very American thing.

You think men should GAF about your career goals and your wants, when all men want is peace for their family and security.

Since they want to have those relationships with women, yes, I would say it should matter what the women want. They may say it's not worth it in the end but that's a different matter.
Paulina 16 | 4,355
29 Mar 2024 #25
Men are willing to die for their families, women simply are not.

Another bullsh1t. Are all men willing to die for their families? Defenitely not. I think that actually women are probably more likely to risk their life, die or get raped instead of their kids (since, as men like to stress - they have stronger bond with their kids, right?). I know about an instance when a mother in my region offered herself instead of her young daughters to be raped by Soviet soldiers. It happened in front of her husband. Did the husband try to stop the rapists? Well, obviously not - he'd get killed.

Similar thing happened in Ukraine during this invasion (minus husband).

Being able to survive after husband disappears is caring for your family. Who will support the kids if the women won't think about that?

Exactly. Especially that men tend to die earlier and lead less healthy lifestyles.
Bobko 25 | 1,995
29 Mar 2024 #26
I would say that's very American thing.

Absolutely not. It exists in Russia, as well. I suspect it's true in Poland too.

The logic is pretty simple:

1) Such people are more stable and predictable. It is easy to understand their motivations. A person adequately fulfilling his family obligations is a sign of reliability and commitment.

2) Individuals with families may prioritize long term stability. This just so happens to align with the priorities of most large organizations.

3) Married individuals, especially with children, likely possess valuable interpersonal skills and a wider perspective, gained from managing family dynamics and responsibilities. This is very much in demand for leadership roles.

4) Finally... nobody likes spending time with their wife or their kids. If the other guy has a wife, it means it's easier to meet - because then the wives can entertain each other. The same applies for kids. If the wife and kids are busy hanging out with their friends, it means more time for you to discuss business, without feeling like you are betraying your family through negligence. In this way, you can even mask an important negotiation as a "family vacation" - killing two birds with one stone. Everyone wins.
PolAmKrakow 2 | 961
29 Mar 2024 #27
@Paulina
When a thug comes to rob you on the street, do you want a man to protect you or some pussified biatch that runs. You cant get both.

All the women here say men are wrong yet they continually post about the men leaving, or men who beat them, which is the smallest of minority of men.

Men care about women and their goals. If their goals dont align with more traditional roles and values, todays men are walking away from feminist women. No real man can spend a life with a feminist, and no real woman can spend a life with a man who believes in feminism because sooner or later they find out he is nothing but a pussy.
Alien 20 | 4,925
29 Mar 2024 #28
more time for you to discuss business,

or watching football and drinking beer.
Lenka 5 | 3,442
29 Mar 2024 #29
. If their goals dont align

And the same goes the other way. Women won't force themselves into relationships with man that have different goals. Simple enough.
Paulina 16 | 4,355
29 Mar 2024 #30
nobody likes spending time with their wife or their kids.

Why the hell do men get married then?

WTF

Men care about women and their goals.

You just wrote that they don't care about women's career goals and their wants.

no real woman can spend a life with a man who believes in feminism

lol

PolAm, sorry, but you have some narrow minded views, in my opinion... Listen, you have your traditional wife, who likes being traditional. Good for you - if that's your thing :) But there are people with different views than yours, including men. So, you keep your traditional wife, take good care of her and your kids (if you have any) and let other people live the way they want :)


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