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Neoliberalism and family formation in Poland


PolAmKrakow 2 | 961
30 Mar 2024 #61
@Lenka
And there is the difference in thinking. What you call sensible, is not always what women want, and it is becoming less and less of what young men want. What is wrong with young men wanting more traditional roles in the family, or a more traditional woman? I have been all over the world and Europe, women in general are much more family oriented here than North America. Is it sensible to have a child, and go back to work after three months to make 10K zloty in a management position when a nanny or good child care is going to take half that money? I dont think so, especially not when it comes to the childs development and bonding with its mother. It makes more sense for the father to take on a second job.

Poland has great maternity policy, but in the US and Canada no such policy exists. Children are not raised by their mothers, they go off to daycare centers, so mom can go back to work. I find it strange that a mother would rather work than raise her child or stay home with them for more than a few weeks. Polands women are very well educated, but not all of them want careers, many would love to be able to be stay at home mothers. With 800+ and the maternity policy here, women really dont have to choose between family and work. In North America its a very different place.
Crnogorac3 4 | 856
30 Mar 2024 #62
Kaczyński?

By the way, half of the European leaders have no children. From Macron to Angela Merkel, Theresa May and beyond.

Our EU queen Ursula von der Leyen gave birth to seven, more than a woman in the Congo. 😁
Lenka 5 | 3,444
30 Mar 2024 #63
1- USA is only part of the world and not a centre of discussion here. You have a lot of staff that is completely weird to me.

2- Tate goes way beyond traditional roles and yes, any sensible person should stay way clear.

It makes more sense for the father to take on a second job.

When does the child bond with father?
PolAmKrakow 2 | 961
30 Mar 2024 #64
@Lenka
The father always finds some time off. If he works an 8 to 4 job, he only gets a few hours a day, the mothers role is more important in early life. You dont like Tate because why? The US is not the center of the world, but the feminist movement is centered and began in the US. The far left movement is centered in the US. Those are just facts. It has now spread to Europe. Funny how many Europeans hate the US and Americans, or dislike them, yet follow the lead from them.
jon357 74 | 21,980
30 Mar 2024 #65
I would think that would disqualify them from any sensible women's consideration

Anyone who idolises (and some of them idolise) that seedy rapist Andrew Tate just comes across as weak, needy and wishing they were as thuggish as their hero. Same with that grifter Peterson, basically Ayn Rand with bad skin.

Followers always look for a leader, and who wants a relationship with a born follower?

1- USA is only part of the world and not a centre of discussion here

Indeed. Life in Europe (and the thread title is about Poland) is quite different.

It would be good if there was more state childcare provided by society though. That's a hot potato in the U.K. too since paying for it privately which many sadly have to is expensive, the amount of childcare vouchers etc is limited and another way women are discriminating against is of course that thanking a career break can damage a career.

Fortunately the move to working from home (for those who ca) will hopefully make that situation easier and of course larger organisations, especially in the public sector, are finally beginn8ng to understand that men can (and should) share child care too.
Paulina 16 | 4,355
30 Mar 2024 #66
You dont like Tate because why?

Are you kidding?:

theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/mar/12/andrew-tate-brother-tristan-arrested-romania-uk-warrant

This guy is amoral and messed up in more than one way. It looks like he converted to Islam only to be able to have a few wives, because he thinks men should be able to have multiple women or sth like that. That's all for now, because it's Holy Saturday and I don't have time nor will to discuss crap.
PolAmKrakow 2 | 961
30 Mar 2024 #67
@Paulina
Of course hear comes the judgement. Funny how the Tate brothers have had charges dropped isnt it? Strange how all their property was returned to them. Even more strange is that the accusers recanted their stories. But please talk about how Tate tells young men to hold women up high, honor them, repsect them and take care of them. Thats his message if anyone pays attention. His message that is changing young men from objectifying women to respecting them must be terrible.

Peterson a grifter? Interesting, he was pretty well known before social media. But he is critical of the left and the LGBTQ agenda, so of course he is in it for the money. Thats why governments around the world have offered to give him a license to practice when Canada want to reprogram him. Again, the left wants everyones opinion to be heard and to count, until it disagrees with their opinion.
Feniks - | 116
30 Mar 2024 #68
You dont like Tate because why?

This interview with him says it all for me. Guess you are one of his admirers as you are actually repeating almost verbatim some of the the stuff he comes out with. If you can't see what is wrong with this guy then there is a problem.


Feniks - | 116
30 Mar 2024 #69
Funny how the Tate brothers have had charges dropped isnt it?

They haven't been dropped:

"Tate and his brother Tristan are currently awaiting trial in Romania after being charged with human trafficking, rape and forming an organised crime group to sexually exploit women on June 20, 2023, along with two Romanian women. A trial date is yet to be set."

mirror.co.uk/sport/boxing/breaking-andrew-tate-tristan-detained-32331519

His message that is changing young men from objectifying women to respecting them must be terrible.

His message is the very opposite of that statement.
PolAmKrakow 2 | 961
30 Mar 2024 #70
@Feniks
LOL I dont admire him for anything other than having the balls to say what he thinks when most men dont. I dont buy into everything he says. I do agree with how a woman should be honored, spoiled, and given everything she wants in return for supporting men. So people laugh at him, criticize him, and mock him. Yet, many women in the world, saying it publicly, want those things. You dont have to agree. Everyone is entitled to think what they want. In a world where men are being made to be weak, someone needs to remind young men that weak men create weak and dangerous times.

If my wife wants to work she can do that. I dont control her. I can always hire a maid to take care of the house. She likes not working and being able to travel when ever we want to where ever we want. To buy things that make her happy. This is the give and take. Its not for everyone I agree completely. But that doesnt make it wrong.
jon357 74 | 21,980
30 Mar 2024 #71
Funny how the Tate brothers have had charges dropped isnt it

He is currently on bail in Romania and unable to leave the country. He is also (as of a few days ago) subject to an arrest warrant from the U.K. where he will be extradited. Romania have said they will not oppose the extradition.

Even more strange is that the accusers recanted their stories. But

There were also cases of online harassment and attempts at legal harassment of their victims. They didn't work as the latest warrant shows.

Thats why governments around the world have offered to give him a license to practice when Canada want to reprogram him

What does that even mean?
pawian 222 | 24,343
30 Mar 2024 #72
don't want to comment here.

Because we are grandpas. Let the youth discuss such topic freely coz it concerns them more than us. :):):)
PolAmKrakow 2 | 961
30 Mar 2024 #73
@jon357
What Peterson is going through in Canada. Having his license stripped from him for expressing his views, and not agreeing to participate in "reprogramming" yes that is the official government term, other countries are offering to give him a license when Canada takes his away.

I apologize for having some Tate information incorrect. That said, the Romanian "victims" have recanted their stories. It doesnt take a year to bring people to trial when they are in the country and living at home unless you dont have a case.
jon357 74 | 21,980
30 Mar 2024 #74
Romania have said they will not oppose the extradition.

A slight correction to this. Romania says he has to face trial for the current Human Trafficking charges there before he is extradited to the U.K.. Given that there's no statute of limitations in England in cases of sexual offences, he could end up going straight from a long jail sentence in Romania to being on remand before a trial on the islands.

It doesnt take a year to bring people to trial when they are in the country

It often takes much longer, especially in complex cases.

living at home

Under house arrest.

The house arrest has been suspended however he is still unable to leave Romania before his upcoming trial.
Atch 22 | 4,117
30 Mar 2024 #75
the feminist movement is centered and began in the US.

Feminism has its roots in works like England's 'A Vindication of the Rights of Woman' by Mary Wollstonecraft which was published in the late 1700s.

Tate tells young men to hold women up high, honor them, repsect them and take care of them.

On his own website he said the following:

"My job was to meet a girl, go on a few dates, sleep with her, test if she's quality, get her to fall in love with me to where she'd do anything I say and then get her on webcam so we could become rich together,"

"I had 75 women working for me in four locations and I was doing $600,000 a month from webcam," he said in a podcast interview.

He's just a a low-life.

Funny how the Tate brothers have had charges dropped isnt it?

Really? The latest news from two weeks ago is that they will be tried in Romania and then extradited to the UK for trial there. The English police already have the European arrest warrant.

He claims to be under instruction from God ............. I suppose that's useful if he wants to plead not guilty by reason of insanity.
Mr Grunwald 33 | 2,172
30 Mar 2024 #76
On his own website

If that's true, then he is a pimp that utilises modern equipment and trends to his own gains.
jon357 74 | 21,980
30 Mar 2024 #77
he is a pimp

Yes he is a pimp and has admitted it.

He even ran an online course that he described as a "Pimpin' Hoes Degree".

Any young man (or more usually teenage boy in the case of his followers) who sees him as any sort of role model ought to take a damn good look at himself.
PolAmKrakow 2 | 961
30 Mar 2024 #78
Any woman dumb enough to work on these online shops is simply dumb. Look at how many women pimp themselves out on Only Fans, and on Instagram. Please stop blaming men for womens bad choices. Thats like blaming the grocery store for selling cigaretts to the smoking adict, or blaming the gorcery store for selling alcohol to the alcoholic. People make choices. Some good some bad. Thats life.

Tate takes advantage of the internet. He makes a lot of money from it. Maybe we should just blame the people who built the internet for everything. Has he done immoral things? Absolutely, in my eyes, but maybe not other peoples. I am not one to judge, I dont live his life. Everyone else judging though is rather comical.

@Atch
Modern feminism comes from the US. I am not talking about voting rights. I am talking about all the other loosely framed talking points. Toxic masculinity, gender pay gap, allowing transgender to participate in womens sports and a whole host of other items. Women in this leftist group are destroying a lot of what they fought for.
OP mafketis 37 | 10,846
30 Mar 2024 #79
There's an awful lot of stereotypes in there and pretty massive generalisations.

Thank you! Thank you! (takes a bow)

That's how that's intended... generalizations based on observations.

Women, on the whole (do I have to slip in 18 qualifiers each and every time?) find verbal confrontation emotionally fulfilling and assume that a confrontational attitude makes them irresistible to men (it doesn't).

Men on the whole think that displaying chivalry makes them attractive to women (it doesn't) this is a time delayed response, a guy who white knights a lot is doing things that might impress a young woman's parents (important when they controlled the v@gina strings) but don't do anything for women who can make their own choices.
jon357 74 | 21,980
30 Mar 2024 #80
displaying chivalry

The whole "courtly love" thing seems so dated.

He makes a lot of money from it

Made.

He isn't now, being on bail for Human Trafficking.
OP mafketis 37 | 10,846
30 Mar 2024 #81
The whole "courtly love" thing seems so dated.

Women clearly don't want it.... so men should stop being chivalrous.
jon357 74 | 21,980
30 Mar 2024 #82
men should stop being chivalrous

The age of chivalry is cold in its grave.

I'll not pretend to speak for women, either all women or some. I'd guess though that given a choice of coming second to men or being themselves, the latter is more appealing.
PolAmKrakow 2 | 961
30 Mar 2024 #83
@jon357
Still making tons of money with his classes and from social media popularity. Even while on bail.
jon357 74 | 21,980
30 Mar 2024 #84
tons of money

Not much use to him when he's sentenced to decades in jail. And of course the compensation to his victims may well leave him penniless.

The prosecutors have recently updated his charges to far more serious ones. It looks like his move to Romania backfired on him.

A toxic individual.

It's also significant that his arrest warrant in England was issued by a particular constabulary; too complicated and in any case off-topic to explain the significance.
PolAmKrakow 2 | 961
30 Mar 2024 #85
@jon357
Innocent until proven guilty. And if he is guilty he can serve his sentence. Thats life. Yet, I wouldnt place a bet on conviction or acquital in this case. Too many contradictions, and as far as the UK goes, they have to get their hands on him first.
jon357 74 | 21,980
30 Mar 2024 #86
Innocent until proven guilty

Unless. And he and his brother will have a chance to plead innocence or guilt very soon.

as far as the UK goes, they have to get their hands on him first

It's a European Arrest Warrant so pretty well automatic. Romania have said though that his forthcoming trial there takes precedence. Should he be acquitted of that, he'll be arrested immediately and brought back to his home country.

This thread isn't just about the creep Tate thought.

He's a trivial figure.
Atch 22 | 4,117
30 Mar 2024 #87
Men on the whole think that displaying chivalry makes them attractive to women (it doesn't)

Well, speaking for myself, I prefer a man who displays basic manners and common courtesy - and not just towards me or women in general but towards everybody.

I am not talking about voting rights.

And neither am I. For example, early proponents of women's rights in England (and some of them were men) advocated for equal educational rights for girls. That was a massive issue. Sir Thomas More who died in 1535 insisted that his daughters have the same classical education as his sons, which was pretty much unheard of in those days. His daughter Margaret Roper was a classical scholar and translator of considerable repute during her brief lifetime. For centuries it was about women being routinely denied equality of opportunity in a range of areas, not just in voting.

Any woman dumb enough to work on these online shops is simply dumb.

I know Americans generally dislike nuance and complexity but it's just not that simple.

Tate takes advantage of the internet. He makes a lot of money from it.

He takes advantage of foolish or unstable young women and makes money from selling pornography.
Mr Grunwald 33 | 2,172
30 Mar 2024 #88
@mafketis
@jon357

I don't think most people expect non-chivalrous people to behave chivalrous. Regardless of them being a women or not, for some odd reason. Plenty of people dream of the lack of chivalry in society as a whole and would like to exchange it with open hostility and agression. In a nuclear age, it boggles the mind.
PolAmKrakow 2 | 961
30 Mar 2024 #89
@Atch
I am talking about modern day feminism. You win, it started in where ever you say. Modern day feminism is not about what it was when it started. The nuts in the US have made it much more. Modern day feminists and all their catch phrases, and key words, are more toxic than pcb's. Tate does not do the porno sites any more I believe. He is making millions with his online courses. There are obviously big divides here on PF when it comes to neoliberalism, feminism, and leftist activism. In the end, one side or the other will prevail because the leftist and rightist can never find common ground. I am betting on the right, and believe all the leftist craziness is exactly what is bringing society down. Traditional roles, and values are not a bad thing. They are not perfect, but they sure arent as crazy as what some would propose to be normalized.
jon357 74 | 21,980
30 Mar 2024 #90
chivalrous

What do you understand by that term?


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