Being a Jew in modern-day Poland; Israeli Jew who is of Polish descent

I have never researched reason for it but it could be few factors like geographical location of Poland and fact that maybe? we were tolerant country with big population of Jews living and working happily in Poland.

I have sometimes impression that the way how it is portrayed all Polish who were killed by Germans don't matter but there is only big importance on Jewish.

I don't really follow this subject but from time to time randomly in USA, UK appears some anti-polish articles written in local press by Jews.

I agree with you RUR. Ziemowit took the necessary time and effort to write what are in my opinion very balanced and accurate views on the question raised by the OP, only to be assaulted by Harry. I have been off this forum for some time, and did not follow most of the exchanges, but clearly Harry bears some kind of grudge.

Ziemowit, let it no deter you to be active on this forum, you are, as you wrote, one of the rare "true Poles" writing (unlike eg myself, being a non pole married to a pole, and no longer living in the country) which makes your views even more valuable!

Just have a read of a few history books and look at the extent to which the various nations of this part of the world intermingled.


Self identifying as being a particular thing does not make one that thing. For example a man born to French parents who spent most of his adult life living in France as a Frenchman was once described as being more Polish than Poland.

I would also refer you to the case of one Pawel Bromson: during his youth he was a neo-Nazi and self-identified as a proud Pole who was 'ethnically pure' and hated foreigners, He and his mates used to got to Auschwitz to vandalise the site and shout that the Nazis had not killed enough Jews. Now he's an Orthodox Jew who works as a mashgiach and a shochet. Why? He found out that not only has he married a Jewess but that he himself is also of Jewish descent. Or perhaps you should read about Yakub Weksler: he grew up as Romuald Waskinel and became a Catholic priest. Then he discovered that the woman he thought of as his mother had been given him during the war and that he was Jewish, he carried on serving as a Catholic priest. Today he is a philosophy professor at the Lublin Catholic University and defines himself as "a Jew, the son of Jesus the Jew".


Perhaps you'd care to read the whole thread? Ziemowit first attempts to state that his opinion is superior to mine by lying about me and then here commits what at one time was a banning offence, stating "I think you should call at the emergency department of the nearest psychiatric hospital as soon as possible."

But thanks for sharing your opinion with us.

I did read the whole thread before posting my comment. I see nowhere Ziemowit stating his opinion is "superior" to yours, he only states that being a Pole living in Poland his angle is different (which I personally accept; having been myself an expat living in Poland for 5 years, I realise that my limited knowledge of Polish -which is the case for most expats - gave me only a narrow views of events).

One would imagine that a Pole who lives in Poland might well have a different angle on being a Jew in Poland today. However, when a person asserts that they are an ethnically pure Pole, one might also want to add just a grain or two of salt to his views when it comes to race relations in Poland or what it's like to be a member of an ethnic minority in Poland, don't you think?


I can only conclude that you missed the bits where he deliberately lied about me and insulted me.

But if one were to believe the very vocal position held by some that the Jewish homeland is Israel then that could only mean that nowhere in Europe or elsewhere in the world could or should be regarded as "traditionally" Jewish parts. There is no denying that Poland is a distinctively European country and a major player at that which has long been a great contributor to European history, culture and progress. As for Israel, it is only a very, very tiny part of the Middle East and one which has values and beliefs completely opposite to those of modern-day Poland. In its current incarnation, Israel is the new kid on the block and has a great deal to learn from the rest of the world.

As for Jews residing in Poland they (like any immigrant group) need to wake up and make the decision, are they going to move forward into the future and assimilate 100% in the prevailing culture where they have been permitted to settle in or are they forever going to be daydreaming about a past of which they have little to no real understanding and one in which they can claim only the most tenuous of links?

Did you not notice that I put the word traditionally in inverted commas? I was making no comment as to where Jews should live in Warsaw (or elsewhere).


Jews in Poland stopped being an immigrant group centuries ago. Jews have been living in many parts of Poland for a lot longer than those areas have been part of Poland.


Jews in Poland have not been permitted to settle here: they are here by right.
If they do not have the right to be here, neither do the vast majority of the people in your country have any right to be there (and one would have to note that your people never received permission to settle there, they just murdered those who objected to them being there).


Almost all of the Jews I know in Warsaw are focused very much on the future of Poland and look at the past only as a source of lessons to be learned for the future. It's a terrible pity that you can't do the same.

Like I pointed out, Jews regard Israel to be their homeland, not Poland. Therefore there can't be any Jewish parts of any town in Poland whether you personally regard them to be "traditionally" so or not. Emphasizing your personal opinions about this matter with the use of quotation marks won't change reality.


That's a completely inaccurate statement you just made. You need to read the title of this thread. It's about being a Jew in modern-day Poland and it is being asked by an Israeli Jew. If this Israeli visits Poland he will be exactly that, a visitor. If he seeks to settle in Poland then he will be an immigrant and needs permission from Poland to remain. What about an American or Canadian Jew who goes to Poland? Same situation. Jews from Central or South America or the very few part of Africa? Yep, they are either a visitor or an immigrant.

Poland doesn't extend special status to Jews who come from non-EU states. In fact, Jews don't enjoy any special status in Poland even if they were born in Poland or somewhere else in the EU. Granted, you may want to think they do or should but this is simply not the case.

As far as Jews living in places during times of shifting borders then you need to pick up a book on Poland's history. If there is anything traditional about Jews living in Europe they often had to be granted permission to reside or practice a trade. Armenians and other minority groups also had to follow the laws of the day. People may regard this all as unfair but in reality it is no different from today regarding immigration rules and permission to work or claim benefits.


Re-read my comments immediately above. Or better yet, read the Polish Constitution: sejm.gov.pl/prawo/konst/angielski/kon1.htm

I provided you the version in English so you can read it. Nowhere does it say Jews are in Poland by right. In fact, you won't find the words Jew or Jewish listed anywhere. Why not? Because Poland's government is not going to carve out special status even though you are jumping up and down on here insisting Jews have rights which don't even exist on paper.


If anyone with Polish citizenship goes around calling themselves Jewish first then they are not focused on Poland at all. They are stuck in a past of outdated thinking. If they refuse to assimilate then they need to leave.


Again, this thread regards a question posed by an Israeli Jew. I am not Jewish and I have never lived in Israel. I completely understand your frustration about such foreigners never getting permission from natives to settle in their lands and even go so far as to murder the natives who resisted, but you really need to ask an Israeli to explain themselves regarding the creation of their state.

[guote=Harry]Just have a read of a few history books and look at the extent to which the various nations of this part of the world intermingled.[/quote]

Hurry ,dear, it is so a ridiculous thing to say, indeed. Poland is very homogeneous linguistically, ethnically, religiously and genetically, but our Jewich friends do not want to accept the facts , its so evident

I think that this is a very good advise especially for you to follow. Just use search engine and
enter "Poland, Poles homogeneous etc " and enjoy.....

By the way , it is very Jewish to ladle out such opinions to other nations


This is a very amusing thing to say. Your examples describe unstable national consciousness nothing more . They are deviations as such , sorry

@Bieganski, an important part of my question which you may have missed is my Polish descent and relative relation to the country. You say I'd be just like any other foreigner, and as such won't necessarily gain the natives' approval - yet what would be the case if I honestly felt relation to the country and its culture, had a Polish citizenship by roots and spoke the language?

I think that language is always the biggest problem.If you knew language, some history and culture - of course you would be accepted.

And as you say you are not very religious - I think in bigger towns with younger generations religion doesn't take so big part of people's life.

Why wouldn't you be accepted ? In the end of the day does it matter so much where you are from?

Another question- who is accepted on emigration for 100%- ? I have been living in UK for 11 years with all this (daily mail, UKIP...l) anti-polish attitude latey I don't feel overly comfortable to say everyone where I am from.

@Iwonka I'm sorry to hear that you feel that way. Personally I think the Brits have bigger problems to worry about right now (e.g. the Muslim influx). As far as I know it wasn't a Polak who beheaded that poor soldier in broad daylight like a reckless beast, yet I do also notice their focus on the mass immigration from Poland as if it was a bad thing.

Back to our topic - I'm not saying I should be accepted 100% of course, but it sure would be nice to assimilate and blend socially as successfully as possible, no one wants to be a foreigner for too long! :)

Do you speak fluent polish? if yes- I don't see the problem.

You would be surprised how many similarities we have ( a guess it is part of our history) - I went to Jewish bakery in Paris and it made me smile- cheese-cakes, poppy-seeds, chalka ...all the same like in Poland.I vaguely remember they were even called similar.

I am not sure to which part of Poland you consider to emigrate - I came from Krakow and there is Kazimierz disctrict nicely renovated there Jewish music festiva...In general l would say it is town rather friendly towards jewish culture. But.!...what you mentioned before I remember these group of young people from Israel visiting Auschwitz. I guess they stayed in Krakow hotels . They were with some security guards, I assume as you said they brainwashed them about our hostility.....it doesn't create great atmosphere and you can't blame us for it.

@Iwonka yes, my Polish is near fluent and of course I keep practicing and using it with my grandparents, aunt and Facebook friends :)

As for the shared history, yes - Polish Jews and the Christian Poles have a strong connection thanks to their joint history - I haven't told you but even my mom's Yiddish, which she speaks to my grandparents in addition to Hebrew - is Galician Yiddish, spoken by the Jews from Poland and highly influenced by Polish. She also knows a bit of Polish, but she always had a hard time studying the language properly despite her will :P

About the bodyguards thing - I know how you feel, and I'm sorry it has to be that way - but the parents are worried about their children's safety as a Jewish group in a foreign country, so you know... they feel its better like this than having their children attacked by some random lunatic/s that might pop up.

Do you think Kraków would be a nicer place for me than Warszawa? :)

Ha, ha you don't know it yet but it is a local secret - People from Krakow and people from Warsaw - are not always the ' mates' - but in a nice bickering way :-).

Both towns are good choice- Krakow is more artistic, laid back...Warsaw is more of a business town. I am not sure what is your profession if you would be looking for a job. if it is a case you would have more opportunities in Warsaw.

I know what you mean about these body guards - it could be some local hooligans ,even terrorists. Especially as they are usually in big groups. The problem is that it alienates them from local polish community.That is why it creates some animosity. I am not sure what is the solution- maybe organize meeting with some local young people? It is different with you as you have polish roots but lots of these kids know about Poland only what they hear at school,read in a press . Maybe if they organize some meeting with local people they will realize that we are not so bad and probably not so different.

@Iwonka these meetings do exist, they are a part of most trips. The teens come back and say the Poles were kinda nice, a little cold (they are not used to such people, European if you'd like, most people here are "warmer") - But its a case of too little too late I'm afraid.

My response to the other poster was factual regarding your status as a foreigner in Poland. Don't expect a welcome home party the day you first set foot on Polish soil.

Regarding what Polish locals will think of you, that is something only your own experience will teach you. If you read the comments of some the British posters on PF then you could be mislead into thinking that actual Poles want nothing to do with others of Polish heritage who come from other parts of the world. But this is wrong and stems from their own hard feeling about failing to make any meaningful friendships or relationships with Poles during their own stay in Poland. Also recognize the British mentality is one burdened by class consciousness. Rather than do what comes instinctively to the rest of humanity and try to find common ground, they instead immediately begin measuring up others (especially each other) in terms of class background.

The majority of Poles however don't mind discussing where other Poles have settled; be it recently or generations ago. And if they know you are a foreigner don't be surprised if any ask you first if you had ancestors who previously lived in Poland.

If you can speak Polish enough to hold a conversation and are able to talk about matters which don't include Israel, an obsession with the Holocaust, or the merits of the communist movement then you will find Poles will most likely be willing to talk to you. And perhaps many won't. But realize that Poles do have their own lives to lead and not everyone is in the mood to keep a tourist entertained during his or her stay no matter how enthusiastic they may be about visiting Poland.

I don't think that kartofel means about 'talking to tourists' but about settling in Poland and feeling accepted.

I think it comes with time finding job, having new neighbors,friends...Polish seem to be more reserved ( than south nations) for a start but when you make some good friends they can be very loyal and hospitable.

The OP is just another national from another country among many who come to PF to put the feelers out and determine their chances of relocating to Poland. He may want to go to Poland for an extended time but that doesn't mean he will be successful even if he would be granted permission. He needs a valid reason to come and stay in Poland. Being able to demonstrate you are Jewish may work with securing citizenship and jobs in Israel but it doesn't carry any weight in Poland nor should it.

Poland is not a theocracy and there is a very boisterous crowd on PF who are overly keen to point this out when it comes to matters involving the RCC. Fine, and so it should also be the case involving anyone else from any other religious affiliation.

As far as "feeling accepted" no one is under any obligation to go out of their way to make another person feel accepted. Of course no one should be bullied or discriminated against. But having to stop everything to make sure society at large is being attendant to one special interest group is so unreasonable that it is simply ridiculous. A person's "feelings" are way too subjective anyway. You can hand some people the world on a silver platter and they will be blushing in their gratitude while others will be red in the face with anger and go on to hold a grudge because it wasn't gold.

A guest poster asked this the other day on the thread:


The difference is so sickeningly obvious that it really does give one uneasy pause to see anyone from Israel of all places expressing worry about their own treatment in a modern, peaceful, EU powerhouse like Poland.


Yes, Poland has its own character, customs and culture and all this needs to be deeply respected by foreigners no matter how long they are permitted to stay.

@Bieganski I think you're over complicating things and keep misinterpreting my words. I will not be coming to Poland as a Jew expecting any benefits or special positive treatment, that would be ridiculous. Furthermore - I was born in Israel and I'm serving in the army so believe you me when I say I have no need to prove anything to anyone here to get a job or anything of the sort, its just that I wanna try living in EU for a handful of reasons and one of my theoretical destinations would be Poland thanks to my increased relation to it over other countries apart from Israel - and that is that.

I think it is a natural wish to be accepted in your target country and assimilating well there without having to deal with any unnecessary obstacles, which is the reason why I was asking my question in the first place - this, and my curiosity.

Oh and about the Palestinians - they have nothing to do with anything really and obviously that was just an unlegitimate attempt at a low blow - I'm not the one calling the shots and therefore I won't fall to this foul attempt.

Kartofel,you may want to consider how you talk about the death camps,or saying no matter the history.if you know history,then you know that Germany placed the camps there,and that a lot of Polish people died in the camps too.It comes off as if you are suggesting that Poland took an active part in this,You do know that Poland was occupied by Germany,right?

I am not sure why all this attack on kartofel just for general questions?
Where does he suggest that Poland was actively involved in holocaust.?

As for Bieganski- Your posts are not objective as you have clearly some grudge against Jews and you support Palestinians.

For me personally ( even I don't live in Poland now) I would much more prefer jewish communities in Poland than from Arabic/muslim ones. And I am entitled to my opinion as anyone.

@p3undone I know Poland was occupied by the Nazis and that the built of the death camps was initiated by the Nazis, not the Poles. Yet we should note that alongside the Poles who helped save Jews there were others who were hostile to the Jews both during and after the war (e.g. Jedwabne Pogrom and Kielce Pogrom respectively).

I think that if it wasn't for those pogroms, there would have been a much more friendly attitude towards the Poles rather than the mixed emotions.

And of course I'm not talking about Poland and the Poles as a whole, since most Poles did not cooperate with the Nazis, but those "pockets" of exceptions which make all the complication.

Well, It's obvious that the Jew (in great numbers, quantities and volumes) wanna back "home" to Poland or better say back to Europe ( The story is not about one Jew from Islael )

No. It would be better to live in Israel. What is it you're looking for?

As always you forget that there are hundreds of millions of people, including millions of Jews, who need no permission at all to live in Poland for as long as they want; you would call them 'foreigners', I call them 'my fellow Europeans'. I do understand that it is hard for you Americans to get your heads round this, but the people of the EU have the legal right to live anywhere they want in the EU. I no more need permission to live in Poland than a Rhode Islander needs permission to live in your state. I can only hope that you respect Polish character, history, customs and culture for whatever time that you, as an American, are permitted to live in our Europe.

But I fear that you will not respect it: you clearly forget that a significant part of Polish character, history, customs and culture is Jewish Polish. The Polish city which I was very recently in bills itself as the city of three cultures: Christian, Orthodox and Jewish. Go to pretty much any small town in south-east Poland and the Jewish influences are plain to see. But I suppose that we can't really expect you to know that, given that you've never visited any of the towns of south-east Poland, which is a pity: if you had, you'd see that a lot of Poles take pride in the Jewish parts of their history.


Which is entirely untrue: most Poles see plastic Poles as a source of vast amounts of amusement and not insignificant amounts of cash, much as Scots and Irish flog over-priced 'traditional' tat to gullible Americans who think that having a name which starts with Mc or O' means that they are 100% Scottish or Irish. Of course, Jews of Polish heritage are not viewed much differently: last summer I met a drunk in a small Polish town who taught me (in exchange for five zloty) how to ask for money in Hebrew (he claimed that pretty much all of the cars with Warsaw plates which stop at the site where we'd stopped were ones hired by Jews who came to see where their families had lived). But then it is pretty damn hard to gain that kind of knowledge about Poland while one refuses to leave the USA.


Could a moderator explain why Bieganski is permitted to insult the families and friends of other posters?


Some Poles did play an active role in the Holocaust, just as some Poles risked or even gave their lives to try to stop it (and the overwhelming majority of Poles did neither of those things). I will thank you to remember that; claiming anything to the contrary does nothing to help Polish-Jewish relations today.

I would not class Poland as a ' modern powerhouse' there is plenty of work to be done.

Well of course you know that: you have been to Poland. Bieganski, however, hasn't. He is of Polish descent but his knowledge of modern-day Poland is laughable. It's just a pity that he can't follow the example of the OP and ask questions about living here.

Although to be fair Poland is the powerhouse of the new EU member states.

Here is an account dedicated to Jewish-Polish history during WW2
polishgreatness.com/polishjewishrelations.html

Yes, the problem is that it's as accurate as one would expect a text on a site named "polishgreatness.com" to be....